It is about time -- Indian Mascots

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briannell
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Post by briannell » Sat Aug 06, 2005 9:13 pm

BAC-


aw, no worries on my part. anyone who was fortunate enough to see me in the boxing smoker at MSU back in '94, knows you are safe from harm, even if I turned nasty. couldn't crush a fly, at least that's what every thinks :wink: besides, no benefits come out of being nasty and making me cry.

as for that other person, they don't want to deal with tears and sniffling right now, life is going fast for them right now and they need to concentrate on that, not that they wouldn't deal with it, just nows not a good time. So they would probably want to pound on you pretty bad if they were put in that position, but I doubt you'd go there. You don't seem the type.

secrets are safe with you. Besides I "have a sweet soul and personality" I don't play the nasty game.

take care -
rebecca


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Post by El_Gato » Sun Aug 07, 2005 7:49 am

:lol:


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briannell
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Post by briannell » Sun Aug 07, 2005 10:14 am

el gato - seriously i don't have many men playing that "crap and run" game with me, usually the ones that know me tend to be very protective, and have no desire to make me cry. for any man to purposely d--k me over, you have to be a real a$$. I don't think Brad fits this discription. as for our mutual friend that we have discussed in PM's he's very protective of me, and although very busy, if I were in tears he'd be aggitated and irritated by it. he's always wanted to "be the man i can depend on", and he's always been true on this, and would really be unhappy with anyone that was disrespectful and cruel to me. he can handle himself in a fight and is seen by many as the "i don't take s--t, I give it" sort of guy, BUT never to me. Brad knows him very well, and knowing that he is so protective of me, wouldn't intentionally piss him off.
also, i just don't think brad is a jerk the way you do, so I'm not worried about my privacy. alright?

-rebecca


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Post by El_Gato » Sun Aug 07, 2005 11:55 am

sorry, rebecca, but the "laugh" wasn't meant for you. I had posted something, then decided to delete but it wouldn't let me so I just changed the whole post to the laugher.

I'm simply done with this one.


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Post by briannell » Sun Aug 07, 2005 12:06 pm

el gato-


good. i'm glad you were not directing that to me. I don't like being a joke to anyone. nor do i like having others tell me I have poor judgement when they do not know me other than reading my posts on the forum.

i think if you did send Brad a nasty PM you should have been man enough to sign it with your real name. nothing more cowardly than to disrespect another person, but hide your identity to avoid any backlash for the nasty comments. I don't think anyone cares if you disagree with opinions on topics posted on the forum, but personal attacks should probably kept off the PM's as well as forum.

-rebecca


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Post by briannell » Sun Aug 07, 2005 1:25 pm

i apologize to el gato, it was wrong to be so harsh. i should not have done
so.

-rebecca


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Post by Hell's Bells » Sun Aug 07, 2005 2:14 pm

ill have to side with El Gato

if you send a P.M. *Private Message* and it gets posted without your permisssion then does it mean that the particular message is private?


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Post by jagur1 » Sun Aug 07, 2005 2:43 pm

It's not like E's hidding his Idenity. Private Business, Kalispell ect ect. & as moderator BAC can get to info about Email adress, IP, Name I think. You know something is wrong when Jag.E.Hells agree on something.


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Post by briannell » Sun Aug 07, 2005 2:55 pm

i think el gato and I are fine. i apologized for being harsh, i meant it, because i was that way. we've PM'd and think we've discussed enough.
the laughter emoticon el gato posted after my last post rubbed me raw, but now know that wasn't the intent.

as for knowing "identities", he told me, so don't mind PM's, only take them from people who give out their names. just personally find the whole "handle" thing creepy, that's all.

-rebecca


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Post by SonomaCat » Sun Aug 07, 2005 3:10 pm

Hell's Bells wrote:ill have to side with El Gato

if you send a P.M. *Private Message* and it gets posted without your permisssion then does it mean that the particular message is private?
As I explained above, I would never disclose any information that was sent to me in confidence. That's just part of my personal ethics. However, in that one case where somebody used a pm to write me a negative book review, I thought it was an appropriate addition to the thread that was up soliticing comments on my book. I'm still not sure why it wasn't posted on the public board in the first place. When he complained, I took it down immediately.

It was an isolated case, and it hasn't and won't happen again on my part. This is very old news, by the way.



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Post by Hell's Bells » Sun Aug 07, 2005 4:15 pm

Bay Area Cat wrote:
Hell's Bells wrote:ill have to side with El Gato

if you send a P.M. *Private Message* and it gets posted without your permisssion then does it mean that the particular message is private?
As I explained above, I would never disclose any information that was sent to me in confidence. That's just part of my personal ethics. However, in that one case where somebody used a pm to write me a negative book review, I thought it was an appropriate addition to the thread that was up soliticing comments on my book. I'm still not sure why it wasn't posted on the public board in the first place. When he complained, I took it down immediately.

It was an isolated case, and it hasn't and won't happen again on my part. This is very old news, by the way.
should have asked him first, theres a reason why he sent it P.M, i am sure he wanted to keep it swept under the rug. BTW i loved your book :wink:


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Post by SonomaCat » Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:26 pm

Hell's Bells wrote:
Bay Area Cat wrote:
Hell's Bells wrote:ill have to side with El Gato

if you send a P.M. *Private Message* and it gets posted without your permisssion then does it mean that the particular message is private?
As I explained above, I would never disclose any information that was sent to me in confidence. That's just part of my personal ethics. However, in that one case where somebody used a pm to write me a negative book review, I thought it was an appropriate addition to the thread that was up soliticing comments on my book. I'm still not sure why it wasn't posted on the public board in the first place. When he complained, I took it down immediately.

It was an isolated case, and it hasn't and won't happen again on my part. This is very old news, by the way.
should have asked him first, theres a reason why he sent it P.M, i am sure he wanted to keep it swept under the rug. BTW i loved your book :wink:
In retrospect, I agree.

And if you actually did like my book, thank you. I'm not all that high on it myself and keep making changes to it each time I pick it up to try to get it closer to being something that I am happy with. It's a strange process, but one I learned a lot from. Most importantly, how to take (and beg for) constructive criticism. When you get too involved with a project like that, you need somebody independent to give you insights that you can't see yourself and to point out obvious flaws that a writer simply can't see with his face that close to the subject.



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Post by SonomaCat » Mon Aug 08, 2005 10:20 am

Getting back to the actual topic, here is some more commentary on the issue from a Libertarian slant:

http://www.reason.com/hitandrun/2005/08 ... l#comments

Scroll to the top for the blog entry from the magazine -- this link take you directly to the user forum.



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Post by SonomaCat » Fri Aug 12, 2005 11:35 am

Some input on the Indian mascot issue from some MSU folks:

http://bozemandailychronicle.com/articl ... mascot.txt



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Post by grizzh8r » Fri Aug 12, 2005 4:15 pm

I am so fed up with all this Poltical Correctness bullsh!t. If I were an Indian (yes, i said Indian), I would be proud to have a school's mascot named after me/my tribe/clan/etc. I am not being insensitive, just trying to make people think. Why all this PC stuff? Are we so afraid of hurting someones feelings that we will make colleges across the country change their names/mascots? This will cost them money, and a lot of fans will be ticked off.

Not only FSU, but Illinois(Fighting Illini), William and Mary(Tribe), Texas Tech(Red Raiders), Central Michigan(Chippewas), Utah (Utes), San Diego State(Aztecs), SE Missouri State(Indians), Hawai'i(Warriors), Alcorn State(Braves) and many more Division II and III schools (i.e., the Fighting Sioux, as mentioned in this thread) will have to change things.

What's next? Getting rid of the Fighting Irish, or the Hofstra Flying Dutchmen because they use the name of a nationality (which is equvalent to what the NCAA is doing now)? Banning the names Blue Devils, Demon Deacons, or DePaul Blue Demons, because of thier Satanic references? Or how about getting rid of the Dozens of "Aggies" names because it is demeaning to those of us involed in Agriculture? Seriously folks - I think the NCAA has gone too far with this.
Last edited by grizzh8r on Fri Aug 12, 2005 4:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Post by grizzh8r » Fri Aug 12, 2005 4:23 pm

Bay Area Cat wrote:Getting back to the actual topic, here is some more commentary on the issue from a Libertarian slant:

http://www.reason.com/hitandrun/2005/08 ... l#comments

Scroll to the top for the blog entry from the magazine -- this link take you directly to the user forum.
Directly from this Blog - sums it up quite well, methinks
Comment by: John P. at August 6, 2005 01:50 PM

---

NCAA, myob! The NCAA apparently has too much power. It seems insulting to American Indians that the NCAA assumes that they can't recognize sports names that are simply evocative of past historical aggressive practices and would believe instead that they are "hostile or abusive". Imagine the NFL banning the Viking mascot in the playoffs for the reason that the large Scandinavian population of Minnesota finds it "hostile or abusive"!!

"Some schools using names such as "Braves" or "Warriors" will not face sanctions, either because they've got high percentages of Indian students ..."

The hypocrisy of this PC nonsense! Shame on the NCAA!
Edit:

This quote had me rolling for quite a while - Sarcasm at it's best!
Comment by: Ed Walsh at August 7, 2005 12:40 AM

---

I don't think having a team name/mascot that calls out my heritage is degrading (I'm Irish and have a drink in my hand to prove it) but I may be wrong. Maybe hearing "The Braves scored!" does cause discomfort for the red skinned among us. If having a team mascot named after you is degrading then I say we degrade those who 'deserve' degrading. How about:

The Drunk Drivers (The crowd could do the Swerve and Crash instead of the Wave.)

The Smokers (Hand to Mouth action instead of the "Tomahawk Chop")

The Drinkers (See The Smokers)

The Pot Heads (The Giggle, Laugh and find Munchies wave)

The Obese Ones (The Sit and Eat)

Think of the anguish these team names and mascots will cause to these people. Every time the Smokers and Drinkers play against each other those who smoke and/or drink will feel the need to quit. When the Drunk Drivers score against the Pot Heads the announcer may say something like "The Drunk Drivers flat out ran over the Pot Heads who still don’t know what hit them!" Think of the shame and degradation this will cause the drunk drivers and pot heads of America. I think the team mascots would be fun to watch as well!
More good stuff from the same blog
Comment by: thoreau at August 7, 2005 02:55 PM

---

As someone who keys cars, spray paints the side of buildings, and destroys mailboxes with a baseball bat, I'm offended by the Vandals of the University of Idaho. As if a real vandal has time to run around a field fighting over a ball, when there are still a few railroad boxcars with no paint on them.

Comment by: Real Vandal at August 7, 2005 03:50 PM

---

anyone aware of any teams named the Visigoths, fighting or otherwise?

I'd like to see the Visigoths and Vandals go head-to-head, with the Vikings taking on the winners
Comment by: Dedskin at August 8, 2005 02:01 PM

---

For a major college or NFL team to change its team name is a massively expensive proposition. The direct costs alone would probably run into the millions, when you consider all the merchandise, the signs, all the kajillions of things that have the logo on it.

My proposal is that any group that wants a major team to change its name should first pony up the money to pay for it.

Why should the taxpayers or owner(s) have to foot the bill to make them feel better about something so completely trivial?


Eric Curry STILL makes me sad.
94VegasCat wrote:Are you for real? That is just a plain ol dumb paragraph! You just nailed every note in the Full Reetard sing-a-long choir!!!
:rofl:

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Post by SonomaCat » Fri Aug 12, 2005 5:55 pm

I'd certainly agree with the assertion that most college nicknames, including many/most modeled after Indians, are perfectly respectable. As to the NCAA ruling, I will be curious to see how they try to implement it. It seems to be somewhat subjective, and how they go about sorting the offensive names from the non-offensive names under the policy will be an interesting debate.

At the same time, I think it is impossible for people who aren't a part of the potentially offended group to really insightfully opine as to whether something is not offensive due to the fact that we aren't personally affected and don't have the background to realize when someone else's culture is being distorted in a way that would be reason for concern. That's why I am interested in reading articles such as the one in the Chronicle from people who can articulate why something is offensive to them.

Some would suggest that they are whining or bitching and that we should disregard how they feel. Perhaps that is true. Perhaps they are making a bigger issue out of something than it needs to be. Or, perhaps, we are simply too quick to throw out the now derogatory and cliche term "PC" to dismiss people's perspectives and are, in the process, trying to justify our own simple lack of empathy and courtesy towards another group of people. Where do we draw that line? I don't know. It's a grey area.

But for purposes of playing devil's advocate, let's assume the following scenarios:

1. A school in Berkeley is looking for a new mascot and, based on the historical influences of the Spanish Missions in this area, comes up with a mascot called the "Crusading Christians." They have a mascot drawn up who has a whip in one hand, and bible in the other, and a crazy intimidating look in his eye. They dress up a kid for the games as a black-robed Christian and have him throw bibles at native people and cast spells on opposing teams with exagerrated signs of the cross. When the opposing team scores, the mascot drops to the ground and writhes in a seemingly epileptic fit in honor of the shakers and to display his displeasure with the bad turn of events. When the Christians score, the mascot celebrates by simulating the hanging of witches or torturing of non-Christians.

A group of Christians complains about the mascot as not being a fair representation of modern Christians as they see them to be. The majority of the people at the school and in the administration, however, are not Christians, and think the name and actions of the mascot are perfectly fine. They even say that the moniker is honoring Christians as it shows how strong they were as a warring class in early America and Europe.

Who's right? Is the mascot appropriate? Who should decide? The majority of non-Chistians at the school, or should they cave to the real Christians who don't like it?

2. A school in a predominately hispanic part of Texas, which until several years ago was predominately white, adopts a mascot called "Los Gringos Luchadores," ("The Fighting Gringos") to honor the veracity of those whites that used to live in the area. This mascot is Casper the ghost white, has menacing sharp teeth, a mouth full of chew, and long dirty hair. It dresses in a wife beater and is pictured as always shaking his fist and screaming like a lunatic in anger at the opposition. He never wears any shoes, and his jeans are a bit too short and are frayed. They don't fit quite right and are held up with suspenders. Sometimes he wears a conquistador hat and carries a 1500's musket to go along with his banjo strapped to his back, and he breaks out into knee-slapping jigs everytime the Gringos score. He's adored by the Hispanic student body.

Same questions. Appropriate, as long as the students don't mind it? Should the input of white people influence the debate at all, or is their opinion irrelevant?

Come up with any other number of examples along similar lines. Yes, I think some mascots are fine, but I feel that some probably do need to be looked at (especially any "Redskins," since that one is simply disgusting in my opinion). It troubles me when people dismiss discussions about it as being simply "PC" talk, as I don't think that sentiment would hold if something more sympathetic to their own beliefs was being caricatured. It's all a matter of perspective, and the more distant we are from the people claiming to be offended, the easier it is for us to dismiss and mock their complaints out of hand.



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Post by raincat » Fri Aug 19, 2005 3:50 pm

I remember when they started calling guys from Butte "Butte Rats" who promptly had it printed on t-shirts and wore it with pride.



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Post by SonomaCat » Tue Aug 23, 2005 6:35 pm

Florida State gets an exemption, which makes sense based on the discussion. It sounds like the NCAA is going about this the right way -- looking at each situation on a case by case basis and not trying to impose one-size-fits-all rules.

I'm not sure if Jeb Bush was entirely accurate when it stated that "nobody" was offended by it -- I'm not sure he really knows whether that's true or not, but due to the relationship the school has with the Seminole tribe, this certainly seems like a fair decision to me.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=2141197



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Post by theblackgecko » Wed Aug 24, 2005 12:33 pm

I wonder if Utah would get the same exemption. Makes sense, as they also have tribal permission for mascot use.



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