12th Man Controversy

Stevicat · Post by **Stevicat** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 3:54 pm

Seahawks' '12th man' angers Texas A&M

FORT WORTH (AP) — The Seattle Seahawks are facing the Pittsburgh Steelers in the Super Bowl, but they have an off-the-field battle brewing with Texas A&M.

School officials are upset with the Seahawks’ use of the “12th Man’’ theme to recognize their fan support. A&M has legal claims to the “12th Man’’ moniker, a school tradition that dates to the 1920s.

The Seahawks have celebrated their fans as a “12th Man’’ since the 1980s, when they used to turn the now-demolished Kingdome into one of the NFL’s loudest venues.

The team retired the No. 12 in 1984. Now, a No. 12 flag waves atop the city’s signature Space Needle and the team has raised a “12th Man’’ banner at their new stadium, Qwest Field.

A&M’s “12th Man’’ tradition started in 1922, when a student, E. King Gill, was called from the stands to suit up for the injury-depleted Aggies as they faced top-ranked Centre College. Gill never got in the game, but the Aggies won 22-14.

A&M has twice registered trademarks for “The 12th Man’’ label — in 1990 and 1996 — that include entertainment services, “namely organizing and conducting intercollegiate sporting events,’’ and products, such as caps, T-shirts, novelty buttons and jewelry.

Athletics director Bill Byrne said this week he’s received e-mails from A&M supporters complaining about the Seahawks’ “brazen use of the 12th Man theme at their home playoff games.’’

Byrne said A&M has contacted the Seahawks about the issue. He said he wrote the Chicago Bears and Buffalo Bills in the past about halting their 12th man themes once the university made them aware of the trademark registrations.

Byrne said Seattle, though, “has been slow-rolling us.’’

Lance Lopes, the Seahawks’ vice president of corporate partnerships/legal affairs, told the Fort Worth Star-Telegram he would not comment on whether the team would meet A&M’s request.

“I will say this,’’ Lopes told the newspaper. “Our fans have been the folks that have run with the 12th man. It has not been the organization itself.”

Post by **rtb** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 3:57 pm

I just saw this on Cold Pizza today. I think this is so stupid for A&M to raise an issue over. If one team can't copy another in anything they do we are all in trouble. A&M needs to get over it. Most of the great sports marketing ideas get copied throughout the country by other teams.

canyoncat · Post by **canyoncat** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 4:03 pm

Can't remember where I saw it, but teams cannot use the word "Three Peat" with out permission from Pat Riley plus a donation for x amount. He got the copy right to that phrase back when he was coaching the Lakers.

Post by **SonomaCat** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 4:05 pm

For the record, though, you all should know that I was the very first person to call the wave "stupid." It's bona fide (as a tip of the hat to "O Brother Where Art Thou" mentioned on another thread). So if any of you ever feel the need to violate my trademark by calling a group of people doing the wave "stupid," then you will be hearing from my attorney!

Stevicat · Post by **Stevicat** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 4:11 pm

Stevicat wrote:
The Seahawks have celebrated their fans as a “12th Man’’ since the 1980s, when they used to turn the now-demolished Kingdome into one of the NFL’s loudest venues.

The team retired the No. 12 in 1984. Now, a No. 12 flag waves atop the city’s signature Space Needle and the team has raised a “12th Man’’ banner at their new stadium, Qwest Field.

A&M has twice registered trademarks for “The 12th Man’’ label — in 1990 and 1996 — that include entertainment services, “namely organizing and conducting intercollegiate sporting events,’’ and products, such as caps, T-shirts, novelty buttons and jewelry.

Does A&M even have a legal claim since the Seahawks retired the number in 1984 and have raised "12th Man" flags before they (A&M) trademarked it in 1990 and 1996???

Post by **rtb** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 4:11 pm

canyoncat wrote:Can't remember where I saw it, but teams cannot use the word "Three Peat" with out permission from Pat Riley plus a donation for x amount. He got the copy right to that phrase back when he was coaching the Lakers.

Yeah, that was when USC

thought they were going to beat Texas. They had to start planning for their merchandise and found out that Three Peat was owned by Riley. They even found out that spelling it Three Pete(as in Carroll) was a violation. Luckily they got way ahead of themselves and didn't need the slogan anyway!!

I will stay that Three Peat is somewhat creative and you could maybe convince me that is it fair to have copyright protection, but is the 12th man really a novel idea? I just don't see why anyone shouldn't be able to call their fans the 12th, 6th, 10th, whatever, man they want to be.

Post by **SonomaCat** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 4:13 pm

Nineteenth hole? Yep, that was me as well. It was in a previous life, but I remember it all very clearly.

whitetrashgriz · Post by **whitetrashgriz** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 4:23 pm

rtb wrote:
canyoncat wrote:Can't remember where I saw it, but teams cannot use the word "Three Peat" with out permission from Pat Riley plus a donation for x amount. He got the copy right to that phrase back when he was coaching the Lakers.
Yeah, that was when USC thought they were going to beat Texas. They had to start planning for their merchandise and found out that Three Peat was owned by Riley. They even found out that spelling it Three Pete(as in Carroll) was a violation. Luckily they got way ahead of themselves and didn't need the slogan anyway!!

I will stay that Three Peat is somewhat creative and you could maybe convince me that is it fair to have copyright protection, but is the 12th man really a novel idea? I just don't see why anyone shouldn't be able to call their fans the 12th, 6th, 10th, whatever, man they want to be.

hey rtb, am i dreaming, or didn't pat get a little ahead of himself too. i thought i read that he trademarked 3-peat after the lakers had one 2 in a row. but didn't they lose the next year, so he didn't actually "3-peat"? that would be pretty sweet 'cause you know he made a pretty penny when the bulls did it TWICE, and for soem reason i think that he didn't do it. i'll check it out.

G.W.Bush · Post by **G.W.Bush** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 4:25 pm

Here is another example:

NEW YORK (AFP) - At a time when the US jobless rate is running at 5.6 percent, property tycoon Donald Trump is trying to copyright his "You're Fired" catchphrase from the hugely successful TV reality show "The Apprentice."

A Trump spokeswoman said Thursday that the billionaire real estate mogul had filed a copyright request with the US Patent and Trademark Office.

A copy of the document posted on the Internet showed Trump seeking exclusive rights to use the phrase on items of clothing, as well as "games and playthings," and in connection with "casino services."

The fabled New York department store Bloomingdales is already selling a "You're Fired" tee-shirt line.

Trump has had a major hit with "The Apprentice" -- a sort of "Survivor" in the corporate boardroom -- in which participants vie with each other for a real job in the Trump Organisation.

Each episode ends with Trump telling one contestant "You're Fired."

The show's success has been a major boon for the NBC network which is bringing down the curtain this year on its two most popular prime-time sitcoms, "Frasier" and "Friends."

A second "Apprentice" series is already in development.

Post by **rtb** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 4:29 pm

whitetrashgriz wrote:hey rtb, am i dreaming, or didn't pat get a little ahead of himself too. i thought i read that he trademarked 3-peat after the lakers had one 2 in a row. but didn't they lose the next year, so he didn't actually "3-peat"? that would be pretty sweet 'cause you know he made a pretty penny when the bulls did it TWICE, and for soem reason i think that he didn't do it. i'll check it out.

Yep, Pat also got ahead of himself and didn't win, so it was a sweet deal for him. Maybe A&M should learn from that. They may curse themselves and never win!

theblackgecko · Post by **theblackgecko** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 4:42 pm

Don't forget the whole "Last Best Place Controversy." The best commentary comes from AB Guthrie's daughter.

http://www.missoulian.com/articles/2005 ... tters4.txt

Guthrie had it right - you can't own a title

Perhaps it is time for a member of the Guthrie family to kick in on the matter of titles, copyrights and trademarks.

As I recall, my father, A. B. Guthrie Jr., was asked in l949, some two years after the publication of "The Big Sky," if he had any objection to Montana's changing its official name from the Treasure State to the Big Sky State. The request came from Montana's Department of Transportation. His response was that titles could not be copyrighted and so to proceed. I am certain he had no idea at the time that oil drilling companies and gaming parlors and all manner of other enterprises he abhorred, including Big Sky, Mont., would use the name. Chet Huntley himself asked me in Memphis, Tenn., what he thought A.B. would think of a resort south of Bozeman. I asked Huntley to keep the resort confined to a small amount of acreage.

So, now we come to "The Last Best Place." David Lipson and Co. want to put a brand on everything from salt and pepper shakers to horse blankets to lingerie. Well, nosireebob. Much the way my father would have cringed at the notion of oil drillers using his title, I cringe to think someone may be walking around in thong undies (male or female) with a label that advertises "The Last Best Place."

Helen Guthrie Miller, Butte

Ponycat · Post by **Ponycat** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 4:45 pm

I call shenanigans...This all just pisses me off. A budy of mine started a t-shirt business called Rival Rags He used Mascot names but nothing trademarked and the NCAA still came after him.

He is the same guy that did the Take a Griz and Wipe with a Hippie shirt.

Billings_Griz · Post by **Billings_Griz** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 6:32 pm

Ponycat wrote:
He is the same guy that did the Take a Griz and Wipe with a Hippie shirt.

Wow, 3rd grade humor.

Ponycat · Post by **Ponycat** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 9:58 am

Billings_Griz wrote:
Ponycat wrote:
He is the same guy that did the Take a Griz and Wipe with a Hippie shirt.
Wow, 3rd grade humor.

Is that the best you can do?

UMclassof2002 · Post by **UMclassof2002** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 10:01 am

A&M will get smacked down if they pursue litigation on this. Copyrights need to be vigorously enforced or else they lose their integrity. The Seahawks, an NFL franchise, has made no secret that they have used this phrase since 1984. "The 12th Man" has long since passed into the public domain.

Besides, it's not like they were trying to coattail any football "success" Texas A&M has had.

catamaran · Post by **catamaran** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 11:47 am

UMclassof2002 wrote:A&M will get smacked down if they pursue litigation on this. Copyrights need to be vigorously enforced or else they lose their integrity. The Seahawks, an NFL franchise, has made no secret that they have used this phrase since 1984. "The 12th Man" has long since passed into the public domain.

Besides, it's not like they were trying to coattail any football "success" Texas A&M has had.

This just in....http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/f ... index.html

Hell's Bells · Post by **Hell's Bells** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 1:17 pm

Stevicat wrote:Seahawks' '12th man' angers Texas A&M

FORT WORTH (AP) — The Seattle Seahawks are facing the Pittsburgh Steelers in the Super Bowl, but they have an off-the-field battle brewing with Texas A&M.

School officials are upset with the Seahawks’ use of the “12th Man’’ theme to recognize their fan support. A&M has legal claims to the “12th Man’’ moniker, a school tradition that dates to the 1920s.

The Seahawks have celebrated their fans as a “12th Man’’ since the 1980s, when they used to turn the now-demolished Kingdome into one of the NFL’s loudest venues.

The team retired the No. 12 in 1984. Now, a No. 12 flag waves atop the city’s signature Space Needle and the team has raised a “12th Man’’ banner at their new stadium, Qwest Field.

A&M’s “12th Man’’ tradition started in 1922, when a student, E. King Gill, was called from the stands to suit up for the injury-depleted Aggies as they faced top-ranked Centre College. Gill never got in the game, but the Aggies won 22-14.

A&M has twice registered trademarks for “The 12th Man’’ label — in 1990 and 1996 — that include entertainment services, “namely organizing and conducting intercollegiate sporting events,’’ and products, such as caps, T-shirts, novelty buttons and jewelry.

Athletics director Bill Byrne said this week he’s received e-mails from A&M supporters complaining about the Seahawks’ “brazen use of the 12th Man theme at their home playoff games.’’

Byrne said A&M has contacted the Seahawks about the issue. He said he wrote the Chicago Bears and Buffalo Bills in the past about halting their 12th man themes once the university made them aware of the trademark registrations.

Byrne said Seattle, though, “has been slow-rolling us.’’

Lance Lopes, the Seahawks’ vice president of corporate partnerships/legal affairs, told the Fort Worth Star-Telegram he would not comment on whether the team would meet A&M’s request.

“I will say this,’’ Lopes told the newspaper. “Our fans have been the folks that have run with the 12th man. It has not been the organization itself.”

anyone else spot that?

Post by **rtb** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 1:24 pm

Nice work A&M, they pretty much have don't have anything to back them up with that wording. They need to get over themselves and let this go!

raincat · Post by **raincat** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 2:48 pm

The once proud A&M Aggies will be lucky to have 12 boosters around for their first four games. They open with The Citadel, then Lafayette, Army and Louisiana Tech. Talk about under achievers!

12th Man Controversy

12th Man Controversy

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Re: 12th Man Controversy