The Bobcat Nation

At the last MHSA meeting, they discussed the idea of bringing 8th graders up for all sports except football to participate as equals with the high schoolers. I think this could be a great move for smaller basketball programs throughout the state, and could allow most teams to fill a full JV. Currently, you can bring up enough 8th graders to fill your roster up to 10, so you will likely end up leaving out some of the 8th graders.

The proposal was voted down, but I think this is the obvious next step to accommodate smaller schools. I see no reason not to make the change. Any thoughts?

I am not sure that this would ever go through. I am with you on thinking that it could be a good thing for the smaller schools and that football should be excluded. The reason I don't think it would ever happen is because the bigger schools don't need kids coming up, so if you were to have a rule that only kids from class B or C schools could do this I think you would have lawsuits filed for discrimination or having kids go to a small school in 8th grade to play high school ball then transfer back to bigger schools for 9th grade. And hey, maybe I am wrong and that stuff wouldn't happen, just kinda seems like it might create a lot of hassle which the schools nor the mhsa need.

don't a lot of other states already do this? seems like you're always hearing about the next big thing, and usually he started playing varsity as early as 8th grade. in fact, i was just reading about a kid not long ago who will shatter the states record books because he was something like the 3rd or 4th leading rusher this year, and led his team to the state title game...in 8th grade! can't remember where he's from but i'll do a brief google.

c.falls cat wrote:I am not sure that this would ever go through. I am with you on thinking that it could be a good thing for the smaller schools and that football should be excluded. The reason I don't think it would ever happen is because the bigger schools don't need kids coming up, so if you were to have a rule that only kids from class B or C schools could do this I think you would have lawsuits filed for discrimination or having kids go to a small school in 8th grade to play high school ball then transfer back to bigger schools for 9th grade. And hey, maybe I am wrong and that stuff wouldn't happen, just kinda seems like it might create a lot of hassle which the schools nor the mhsa need.

But what kid is going to want to move to Opheim for a year just to play basketball?

Unfortunately, it seems like the window of opportunity for many small schools is or has closed. This seems like a bandaid approach at best and puts you on a path where in a few years there's undoubtedly going to be a proposal to allow 7th graders to play next. I know that there's obviously a lot of pride in having their own schools and teams, but I personally think that increasing the number of co-ops is the better option as far as sports teams go.

In the longer term, I think that the economic viability of many school districts is in serious doubt. IMNSHO, we just have too many school districts (along with too many counties) and consolidation is going to happen eventually. There’s no doubt that there are some communities whose location would make it more difficult to consolidate with another school district, but looking over the latest high school enrollment numbers many of the school districts below an arbitrarily selected number such as 40 students (of which there are currently 42 of these high schools) certainly have some viable options for extended co-ops and/or consolidation.

For those who disagree, feel free to flame away. I understand the argument that if you take away these town’s schools and teams, the town will die. But the reality is that there is and always have been communities in every civilization and age that ceased to exist. Sometimes it was through no fault of their own which doesn’t make it any easier.

CPACAT wrote:

c.falls cat wrote:I am not sure that this would ever go through. I am with you on thinking that it could be a good thing for the smaller schools and that football should be excluded. The reason I don't think it would ever happen is because the bigger schools don't need kids coming up, so if you were to have a rule that only kids from class B or C schools could do this I think you would have lawsuits filed for discrimination or having kids go to a small school in 8th grade to play high school ball then transfer back to bigger schools for 9th grade. And hey, maybe I am wrong and that stuff wouldn't happen, just kinda seems like it might create a lot of hassle which the schools nor the mhsa need.

But what did is going to want to move to Opheim for a year just to play basketball?

it took me 10 minutes to find that place on the map!

Billings Cat wrote:Unfortunately, it seems like the window of opportunity for many small schools is or has closed. This seems like a bandaid approach at best and puts you on a path where in a few years there's undoubtedly going to be a proposal to allow 7th graders to play next. I know that there's obviously a lot of pride in having their own schools and teams, but I personally think that increasing the number of co-ops is the better option as far as sports teams go.

In the longer term, I think that the economic viability of many school districts is in serious doubt. IMNSHO, we just have too many school districts (along with too many counties) and consolidation is going to happen eventually. There’s no doubt that there are some communities whose location would make it more difficult to consolidate with another school district, but looking over the latest high school enrollment numbers many of the school districts below an arbitrarily selected number such as 40 students (of which there are currently 42 of these high schools) certainly have some viable options for extended co-ops and/or consolidation.

For those who disagree, feel free to flame away. I understand the argument that if you take away these town’s schools and teams, the town will die. But the reality is that there is and always have been communities in every civilization and age that ceased to exist. Sometimes it was through no fault of their own which doesn’t make it any easier.

Many schools that are short on kids are in a dip in their high school enrollment. Having to create a co-op for a year or two just because a couple small classes go through the high school is not a good approach. 8th graders are already playing on teams around the state, this new rule simply allows you to bring up the entire class, instead of just enough to get you to 10. It just seems a little more logical this way.

redspartancat wrote:

Billings Cat wrote:Unfortunately, it seems like the window of opportunity for many small schools is or has closed. This seems like a bandaid approach at best and puts you on a path where in a few years there's undoubtedly going to be a proposal to allow 7th graders to play next. I know that there's obviously a lot of pride in having their own schools and teams, but I personally think that increasing the number of co-ops is the better option as far as sports teams go.

In the longer term, I think that the economic viability of many school districts is in serious doubt. IMNSHO, we just have too many school districts (along with too many counties) and consolidation is going to happen eventually. There’s no doubt that there are some communities whose location would make it more difficult to consolidate with another school district, but looking over the latest high school enrollment numbers many of the school districts below an arbitrarily selected number such as 40 students (of which there are currently 42 of these high schools) certainly have some viable options for extended co-ops and/or consolidation.

For those who disagree, feel free to flame away. I understand the argument that if you take away these town’s schools and teams, the town will die. But the reality is that there is and always have been communities in every civilization and age that ceased to exist. Sometimes it was through no fault of their own which doesn’t make it any easier.

Many schools that are short on kids are in a dip in their high school enrollment. Having to create a co-op for a year or two just because a couple small classes go through the high school is not a good approach. 8th graders are already playing on teams around the state, this new rule simply allows you to bring up the entire class, instead of just enough to get you to 10. It just seems a little more logical this way.

I think you hit on exactly why it's not a long-term solution. The term "dip" implies that it may come back up again, which unfortunately, I don't think is the case for most. Permanent co-ops and/or consolidation is going to be the only long term answer for many of them and it's just delaying the inevitable in some cases which sometimes just makes it harder.

But he makes the point that for some schools, it is, in fact, just a "dip," and that they know that enrollments are coming back up with future classes. To be forced to form a co-op for a year or two does seem like a horrible approach if something as simple as letting 8th graders play could remedy the solution. In those cases, it seems like a good long-term solution.

Yes, many schools are going to have to co-op permanently, but that doesn't mean this isn't a good option for those schools that aren't in that situation (and these schools know how many students are in the pipeline, so they could make reasonable decisions based on that information).

I suspect that even if allowed, very few schools would utilize this option. But it seems like it would be a useful option to have in those rare instances where it is needed.

This biggest advantage is that you would be able to have JV games again. Many schools are without JV, or only play half games. The junior high season is becoming smaller, why not get these high school squads up above 10 so you efficient practice time and full JV games. There is really no down side.

If an 8th grader played high school basketball, would they still be limited to 4 years, or would they get to play for 5 years? I remember a proposal someplace that allowed 8th graders to play on the HS team, but they treated it like college and gave them 5 years to play 4 years of HS ball. That would seem kind of silly (as an 8th grader is an emergency measure and will hardly ever be an impact player on a high school team), but I remember seeing the idea somewhere.

Bay Area Cat wrote:If an 8th grader played high school basketball, would they still be limited to 4 years, or would they get to play for 5 years? I remember a proposal someplace that allowed 8th graders to play on the HS team, but they treated it like college and gave them 5 years to play 4 years of HS ball. That would seem kind of silly (as an 8th grader is an emergency measure and will hardly ever be an impact player on a high school team), but I remember seeing the idea somewhere.

i'm sure it varies, but i know for certain that in some states you can play all five years. it's actually re-writing some of the record books because next to state records they put whether or not the player played 4 or 5 seasons. i need to find the link, but right now one of the top rushers in one of the southern states was an 8th grader! they mention how he'll probably shatter the records, but because he'll have played five seasons it'll be expected. i'll look into it. god knows i'm not getting any work done.

I could be wrong but I thought that Pistol Pete Marivich sp? started for his varsity team as an 8th grader. Of course that was like 50 years ago but kind of neat.

here's one i found although i must admit i can't recall if this is the one i was thinking about. either way it shows that in some states, you can in fact play high school ball as a middle schooler.

http://highschool.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=1032626" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

North Dakota has allowed 8th graders to play High School sports for quite some time. I had a buddy in college who was a 5 Time State Champion in wrestling in North Dakota. I think it is a great idea for the small schools as it allows some of them to field a varsity team that without 8th graders, they would not.