Does ash really have these guys under control?

[BigBruceBaker]

Bottom line is that Ash only has so much responsibility and it seems like he is doing the right things. Ash cannot be held responsible for what anyone does away from school and football.

That's where the personal responsibility/accountability kicks in or should kick in.


Thank you for someone finally coming out and saying that the coaches cannot be held responsible for something a student athlete does outside of school and football. Which leads me to my question. If this is the case then why did Kramer get fired for something that was outside football? Hell, #1 wasnt even in the program anymore and yet he was fired for it!

Not to dredge this crap up again, but are you guys totally forgetting about the pathetic academic record that Kramer established while he was here? That's the biggest reason why he was fired.

Having a drug ring operating within the football team was merely window dressing and a little national humiliation for the school and the program.

Let ... it ... go. Kramer is gone, and the MSU football program is in better hands now.

Also BAC lets not forget his hand picked assistant that had a little to much of a taste for Meth

[crazycat]

Bottom line is that Ash only has so much responsibility and it seems like he is doing the right things. Ash cannot be held responsible for what anyone does away from school and football.

That's where the personal responsibility/accountability kicks in or should kick in.


Thank you for someone finally coming out and saying that the coaches cannot be held responsible for something a student athlete does outside of school and football. Which leads me to my question. If this is the case then why did Kramer get fired for something that was outside football? Hell, #1 wasnt even in the program anymore and yet he was fired for it!

Not to dredge this crap up again, but are you guys totally forgetting about the pathetic academic record that Kramer established while he was here? That's the biggest reason why he was fired.

Having a drug ring operating within the football team was merely window dressing and a little national humiliation for the school and the program.

Let ... it ... go. Kramer is gone, and the MSU football program is in better hands now.

I agree that it’s pointless to dredge this stuff up again since the court is supposedly going to have its say in due time. But since your statements, and they do come off as statements, seem to be invoking a sentiment that not everyone shares it begs some questions that seek clarification. You also were the first to invoke Kramer’s name in the APR thread last week, so it’s odd that you seem riled that anyone is dredging this crap up again.

For instance this ‘biggest reason’ is an interesting development. I didn’t know anyone had prioritized the reasons Kramer was fired. I take it the school did this. Did they do a news release or did they share that information through another forum? To the best of my knowledge the reason was a ‘crisis in leadership.’ I didn’t see a further breakdown as to just what that meant.

When you say established do you mean that Kramer established a method of recruiting and overseeing the academic status of the football program, and then had the authority to implement it without administrative approval? Or did he establish this by going behind the administrators backs? If the latter, where did you get this information?

Did the ‘better hands’ (Rob Ash) implement and make all these changes to recruitment and academic oversight on his own or were they just his ideas? Or are the better hands basically all the same hands (replacing Kramer’s with Ash’s) that have been involved in this for the past several years?

Please clue us all in. Otherwise take your own advise and let it go.

[SonomaCat]

Some people still think that there were WMD in Iraq, too. Just sayin'.

And to be comparing completely unsupported "allegations" of football players "looking for fights" (that they apparently never found???) in local bars to what happened under Kramer's watch is beyond absurd. For anyone to suggest we are even in the same anecdotal realm with these two situations is a little confusing.

[AlphaGriz1]

Ash has as much control over the football team as you guys have over me on this board.


He is not and should not be responsible for adults and the decisions they make while on their own time.


Deal with it.

[crazycat]

I can't tell if you're just playing around or what, but I'll take that response (which is beneath you and very unexpected based on all the posts I've read of yours) to mean that you don't really have anything factual regarding my questions to share at this point.

For the record, I'm not taking a side. I imagine, and hope, that the court will be able to draw out some further information to shed some light on what occured beyond 'crisis in leadership.' The school could have some legitimate reasons for firing Kramer or Kramer could have some legit reasons for suing the school. Hopefully it'll be a clear cut case and we'll all be happy with the verdict.

I don't think anyone as far removed as we are from the details can start pointing out specific reasons for why Kramer was fired or just how the academic oversight was/is conducted. I can see where you might have some opinions on the matter and that your logic has a foundation, but since its something that we all take relatively seriously, phrasing your statements as opinions (something we all know you're very capable of) would probably help keep things from flaring up again.

[SonomaCat]

I can't tell if you're just playing around or what, but I'll take that response (which is beneath you and very unexpected based on all the posts I've read of yours) to mean that you don't really have anything factual regarding my questions to share at this point.

For the record, I'm not taking a side. I imagine, and hope, that the court will be able to draw out some further information to shed some light on what occured beyond 'crisis in leadership.' The school could have some legitimate reasons for firing Kramer or Kramer could have some legit reasons for suing the school. Hopefully it'll be a clear cut case and we'll all be happy with the verdict.

I don't think anyone as far removed as we are from the details can start pointing out specific reasons for why Kramer was fired or just how the academic oversight was/is conducted. I can see where you might have some opinions on the matter and that your logic has a foundation, but since its something that we all take relatively seriously, phrasing your statements as opinions (something we all know you're very capable of) would probably help keep things from flaring up again.

You can take my posts to mean that I'm not interested in having a 50 post nonsensical debate on this topic like those we've had in the past on this same subject. You can theorize whatever you like ... I don't care.

But using the "allegations" in this thread to try to complain about Kramer's firing is absurd. Feel free to disagree if you want. It's the smack board, it's all good.

[John K]

Bottom line is that Ash only has so much responsibility and it seems like he is doing the right things. Ash cannot be held responsible for what anyone does away from school and football.

That's where the personal responsibility/accountability kicks in or should kick in.


Thank you for someone finally coming out and saying that the coaches cannot be held responsible for something a student athlete does outside of school and football. Which leads me to my question. If this is the case then why did Kramer get fired for something that was outside football? Hell, #1 wasnt even in the program anymore and yet he was fired for it!

Not to dredge this crap up again, but are you guys totally forgetting about the pathetic academic record that Kramer established while he was here? That's the biggest reason why he was fired.

Having a drug ring operating within the football team was merely window dressing and a little national humiliation for the school and the program.

Let ... it ... go. Kramer is gone, and the MSU football program is in better hands now.

I agree that it’s pointless to dredge this stuff up again since the court is supposedly going to have its say in due time. But since your statements, and they do come off as statements, seem to be invoking a sentiment that not everyone shares it begs some questions that seek clarification. You also were the first to invoke Kramer’s name in the APR thread last week, so it’s odd that you seem riled that anyone is dredging this crap up again.

For instance this ‘biggest reason’ is an interesting development. I didn’t know anyone had prioritized the reasons Kramer was fired. I take it the school did this. Did they do a news release or did they share that information through another forum? To the best of my knowledge the reason was a ‘crisis in leadership.’ I didn’t see a further breakdown as to just what that meant.

When you say established do you mean that Kramer established a method of recruiting and overseeing the academic status of the football program, and then had the authority to implement it without administrative approval? Or did he establish this by going behind the administrators backs? If the latter, where did you get this information?

Did the ‘better hands’ (Rob Ash) implement and make all these changes to recruitment and academic oversight on his own or were they just his ideas? Or are the better hands basically all the same hands (replacing Kramer’s with Ash’s) that have been involved in this for the past several years?

Please clue us all in. Otherwise take your own advise and let it go.

Amen....those are all excellent points. And IF the academic issues were indeed the primary reason for Kramer's firing....how does that square with the fact that the APR had improved during the last year of his tenure? That would suggest to me that whatever measures were taken to address the problem, would have been implemented and proven to be successful, no matter who was coaching the team.

[SonomaCat]

Yeah, it increased from failing to failing.

[crazycat]

I can't tell if you're just playing around or what, but I'll take that response (which is beneath you and very unexpected based on all the posts I've read of yours) to mean that you don't really have anything factual regarding my questions to share at this point.

For the record, I'm not taking a side. I imagine, and hope, that the court will be able to draw out some further information to shed some light on what occured beyond 'crisis in leadership.' The school could have some legitimate reasons for firing Kramer or Kramer could have some legit reasons for suing the school. Hopefully it'll be a clear cut case and we'll all be happy with the verdict.

I don't think anyone as far removed as we are from the details can start pointing out specific reasons for why Kramer was fired or just how the academic oversight was/is conducted. I can see where you might have some opinions on the matter and that your logic has a foundation, but since its something that we all take relatively seriously, phrasing your statements as opinions (something we all know you're very capable of) would probably help keep things from flaring up again.

You can take my posts to mean that I'm not interested in having a 50 post nonsensical debate on this topic like those we've had in the past on this same subject. You can theorize whatever you like ... I don't care.

But using the "allegations" in this thread to try to complain about Kramer's firing is absurd. Feel free to disagree if you want.

Nor am I, which is why I said I agree with you and why I'm pointing out that if you don't want to have that kind of debate again you should perhaps phrase your opinions in a way that doesn't spark the debate, but rather quells it.

The simple, and more civil, response is to just say we'll probably find out more later about Kramer. Or that there hasn't been enough information put out to make a judgement. There's really no point in forming an opinion and trying to argue it since having an opinion will only get the debate going again.

You were basically saying, don't argue with me, because my opinion is right. Then when I questioned your statements, you didn't have any answers.

[John K]

Yeah, it increased from failing to failing.

Yes, but it was moving in the right direction. If a student is getting D' s and F's....changes his study habits, and then begins getting C's....do we say that the changes weren't effective because he didn't immediately start getting A's and B's? Isn't it possible that huge improvement wouldn't be possible until some of the players in the program turned over?

[SonomaCat]

Or that there hasn't been enough information put out to make a judgement.

If that was true, I would have said that.

Just like some people allege that we don't know enough to make a judgment about WMD in Iraq, right?

[crazycat]

Or that there hasn't been enough information put out to make a judgement.

If that was true, I would have said that.

Just like some people allege that we don't know enough to make a judgment about WMD in Iraq, right?

This is your chance to provide us all with that information that enables you to make a judgement. Please refer to the questions I asked in my previous post.

As for WMD, the president has admitted that there were no WMDs, so most people who didn't think so, now concede that there were no WMDs.
If Kramer admits that he was the cause of his own firing, then a lot of people who don't think so, will need to concede.

I don't think it does anyone (the school, the players, the fans) any good to blame someone without some fairly convincing information. Just about everyone would like to hear the evidence first, so they can feel confident that justice was served.

We just went through this with the Lebrum case. He was involved in a murder-robbery and many people were convinced that he was in fact the triggerman. As the judge said we may never know for sure, but the prosecution said that the evidence supported his claim that he wasn't and removed that charge. Making it difficult for anyone to maintain that Lebrum was the triggerman.

[SonomaCat]

You can take my posts to mean that I'm not interested in having a 50 post nonsensical debate on this topic like those we've had in the past on this same subject. You can theorize whatever you like ... I don't care.

[crazycat]

Nor am I, which is why I said I agree with you and why I'm pointing out that if you don't want to have that kind of debate again you should perhaps phrase your opinions in a way that doesn't spark the debate, but rather quells it.

The simple, and more civil, response is to just say we'll probably find out more later about Kramer. Or that there hasn't been enough information put out to make a judgement. There's really no point in forming an opinion and trying to argue it since having an opinion will only get the debate going again.

You were basically saying, don't argue with me, because my opinion is right. Then when I questioned your statements, you didn't have any answers.

[College Recruiter]

Ash has as much control over the football team as you guys have over me on this board.


He is not and should not be responsible for adults and the decisions they make while on their own time.


Deal with it.

Ash can't control them at the Rockin R Bar at midnight...but he can when they walk into the locker room on Monday morning. And he will

If there was wrong doing....he will deal with it. Thats the difference.....he promises and he will in fact do the "follow up". Watch and learn.

[College Recruiter]

The simple, and more civil, response is to just say we'll probably find out more later about Kramer. Or that there hasn't been enough information put out to make a judgement.

Yeah...the 6 or 7 reasons we currently know (facts) which support his firing are not enough. For the sake of most here, I won't list them.

According to Crazy....we are going to "find out more" that supports his firing.

God Forbid.

Where I work...it only takes 2 strikes and your out. At MSU it takes 8 or 9!

[crazycat]

Thanks for clearing that all up for us College Recruiter.

[College Recruiter]

Thanks for clearing that all up for us College Recruiter.

I for one, apparently like you....anxiously await the "court case" to show even more bad crappola.

PEEEEUUUUUUUU

[crazycat]

Thanks for clearing that all up for us College Recruiter.

I for one, apparently like you....anxiously await the "court case" to show even more bad crappola.

PEEEEUUUUUUUU

Well lets all hope it isn't any worse than what it seems. None of us want our school, our players, or our coaches (past, present or future) to be bad.

"Ladies and gentlemen: Mr. Burt Bacharach."

What the world
needs now
is love
sweet love.
It's the only thing
there's just
too little of.

[GOKATS]

The simple, and more civil, response is to just say we'll probably find out more later about Kramer. Or that there hasn't been enough information put out to make a judgement.

Yeah...the 6 or 7 reasons we currently know (facts) which support his firing are not enough. For the sake of most here, I won't list them.

According to Crazy....we are going to "find out more" that supports his firing.

God Forbid.

Where I work...it only takes 2 strikes and your out. At MSU it takes 8 or 9!

I really don't know. Please indulge me and take the time to elaborate. We've all heard the heresay and innuendo stuff, so please- "just the facts, maam, just the facts" (sorry Jack).

Kramer was fired 'without cause'- that's fact # 1. Take it from here (and please present your 'facts' in a manner that will stand up in a court of law, not just personal opinion). Facts!

Thank you.