Welsch

Post by **SonomaCat** » Wed May 25, 2005 10:18 am

And to the first point, about alums complaining about giving scholarships to minorities ... we have seen some not-so-subtle suggestions of that on this site in recent months. We all probably know people who have said these things in our presence as well (probably right before we told them they were stupid), so it's hard to be upset by that being included in the article.

We all know every one of the things that Jeff included in the article has happened and that those kinds of attitudes do exist in Bozeman and everyplace with a similar population. It's a sad reality -- there are people with messed up views of race in every town.

I think the important distinction is to not take his article as an indictment of the Bozeman area and rather look at it as an opportunity to look at Bozeman from the perspective of a minority. If I read it correctly, that was the whole intent of the article.

Cat Grad · Post by **Cat Grad** » Wed May 25, 2005 10:27 am

"There can be no bonding without common suffering." Knowing where I came from in northeastern MT and getting to see the "house" I lived in as a kid before my parents got me off the Rez, working as many years as I did in inner-city schools in the South, and knowing the history of the community and school I grew up in and which schools opened the doors for the African-American athletes, this subject fits the trashpile, in my opinion. Let Mr. Clark and Mr. Adams tell the story, not somebody else. The Valley is Utopia and maybe we could get a better perspective if we read Charles Barkley a little more closely. I don't ever want to feel I can't fit in with any group of people--except a freaken Fizzlie because I can't stand that elitist, condescending attitude that seeps out of a liberal arts "institution" but you've got to remember what type of institution produces writers, in all fairness to Mr. Welsch.

Post by **SonomaCat** » Wed May 25, 2005 10:34 am

Well, if the article makes people think about things from a perspective other than their own, which is obviously does, then it was worth writing.

Cat Grad · Post by **Cat Grad** » Wed May 25, 2005 10:40 am

There is no way we can view life from somebody else's perspective. I'd like to use stronger language, but this subject is a long way from social healing, to me.

Jeff Welsch · Post by **Jeff Welsch** » Wed May 25, 2005 1:17 pm

Let me just say, before I respond to mquast53000's assertions, that Bay Area Cat totally gets it: A columnist's job isn't to be popular or make people feel better, it's to be thought-provoking and insightful.

You can debate whether it's the latter; I'd say 23 replies on an Internet message board answers the former. There's good dialogue going on here.

The assertions I've made without specific attribution come from many, many conversations with people close to the subject. I don't have to quote an astronaut to say there's rocks on the moon.

But I understand the credibility issue. Know this: One person describing an experience is worth listening to; two or three warrants some attention; four or more is a trend. On this topic, we're well into the trend area.

Bay Area Cat totally gets it when it comes to what I'm saying about Bozeman, too.

I see no negatives from people talking about this openly.

WYCAT · Post by **WYCAT** » Wed May 25, 2005 1:30 pm

Jeff Welsch wrote:Bay Area Cat totally gets it: ....Bay Area Cat totally gets it when it comes to what I'm saying about Bozeman, too.

Now you really are scaring me Jeff.

Cat-theotherwhitemeat · Post by **Cat-theotherwhitemeat** » Wed May 25, 2005 2:03 pm

WYCAT wrote:
Jeff Welsch wrote:Bay Area Cat totally gets it: ....Bay Area Cat totally gets it when it comes to what I'm saying about Bozeman, too.
Now you really are scaring me Jeff.

We're never going to hear the end of this...

mquast53000 · Post by **mquast53000** » Wed May 25, 2005 2:27 pm

Mr. Welsch, saying that BAC understands your article is your answer? I guess what spurred my questions about your article is that you preach moderation when you report news, but I would hardly say the article was wrote from the standpoint of a self proclaimed moderate… I was simply looking for some insight from the author.

WYCAT · Post by **WYCAT** » Wed May 25, 2005 3:00 pm

Cat-theotherwhitemeat wrote:
WYCAT wrote:
Jeff Welsch wrote:Bay Area Cat totally gets it: ....Bay Area Cat totally gets it when it comes to what I'm saying about Bozeman, too.
Now you really are scaring me Jeff.
We're never going to hear the end of this...

I know Meat but I couldn't help myself.

WetWaderMT · Post by **WetWaderMT** » Wed May 25, 2005 3:14 pm

Does anyone else here notice that BAC is always right, and any dissenting opinion/idea/commentary is attacked personally...which he espouses as not being an acceptable retort from others in here or elsewhere? If you don't read a post in the same manner as he does, you're wrong, and that's all there is to it!

Glass houses and hypocricsy abound.

As far as Mr. Welsch is concerned, I've noticed continual negativity in his writing when it comes to Bozeman and Montana. Which, for someone who says he loves it so much, doesn't seem to fit. If you don't agree, so be it, your dissenting opinion doesn't make mine wrong though! Bozeman has problems just like everywhere else, and many are getting worse, but if someone loves it so much, why wouldn't that be reflected more in their writing? I have no problem w/ Jeff personally, I just don't agree w/ his philosophy on being a sports editor, which, since he has the job and I don't, doesn't really amount to a hill of beans...but, I thought this was a place the average fan could voice their opinion. I guess I was wrong, especially when it comes to disagreeing with BAC. Lesson Learned!

Cat-theotherwhitemeat · Post by **Cat-theotherwhitemeat** » Wed May 25, 2005 3:43 pm

WetWader, what bothered me about your post on Mr. Welsch wasn't your view on his writing styles. You were telling us Jeff's thoughts through assumption.

You wrote:

The reason he isn't going to be, and doesn't want to be, "a home town guy" is because he has NO desire to be! His entire ambiance is one of, "I'll suffer through these next two or three years w/o creating any alligances, prove my ability to be unbiased in one of the most 'biased' (which you all have to have the brains to realize are his feelings, what was his most recent article about...pointing out our 'lily whiteness') regions of the country, and move on to a better, bigger, HIGHER PAYING job in some area of the country where he can revert to writing about how pathetic Bozeman/Montana/The Big Sky are and laugh all the way to the bank.

Why do you assume he's only here for a short while? And that there is anything wrong with going on to bigger things? And why would you say he's going to bash the Big Sky when/if he leaves? You've generalized HIS entire ambiance.

As far as BAC is concerned, I've disagreed with him many times just on his choice of girlfriends or lack thereof.

Cat Grad · Post by **Cat Grad** » Wed May 25, 2005 3:47 pm

...and I've disagreed with his left leaning tendencies and recreational beverages of choice...but we all love to disagree in here in a civil manner...you're not really one of "them" feeling somewhat frustrated because you live in the Valley with all the logical, sensible people do you?

Post by **SonomaCat** » Wed May 25, 2005 3:51 pm

WetWaderMT wrote:Does anyone else here notice that BAC is always right, and any dissenting opinion/idea/commentary is attacked personally...which he espouses as not being an acceptable retort from others in here or elsewhere? If you don't read a post in the same manner as he does, you're wrong, and that's all there is to it!

Glass houses and hypocricsy abound.

As far as Mr. Welsch is concerned, I've noticed continual negativity in his writing when it comes to Bozeman and Montana. Which, for someone who says he loves it so much, doesn't seem to fit. If you don't agree, so be it, your dissenting opinion doesn't make mine wrong though! Bozeman has problems just like everywhere else, and many are getting worse, but if someone loves it so much, why wouldn't that be reflected more in their writing? I have no problem w/ Jeff personally, I just don't agree w/ his philosophy on being a sports editor, which, since he has the job and I don't, doesn't really amount to a hill of beans...but, I thought this was a place the average fan could voice their opinion. I guess I was wrong, especially when it comes to disagreeing with BAC. Lesson Learned!

You can voice your opinion -- obviously that is happening without threats of any kind. However, when you post something that essentially attacks the motives and ethics of a guy as opposed to the quality of his work, then I am going to say something that contradicts you. You weren't writing constructive criticism -- you were attacking him on a personal level while posting under an anonymous handle. Why shouldn't someone contradict you when you are doing that?

Besides, your own post begged the question -- jaded or insightful. Jaded doesn't really work, and I didn't personally find it insightful, so I offered some other descriptions over a range to work with. At very least, you have to admit that "cynical" (as that is the one word that would define your post precisely) is much more appropriate than "jaded." If you want to go with a best-case scenario, I merely redirected your self-description to a judgment-neutral term that worked even better than the one you came up with.

CatfaninGA · Post by **CatfaninGA** » Wed May 25, 2005 4:35 pm

Pretty decent write up.

WYCAT · Post by **WYCAT** » Thu May 26, 2005 7:52 am

WetWaderMT wrote:Does anyone else here notice that BAC is always right, and any dissenting opinion/idea/commentary is attacked personally...which he espouses as not being an acceptable retort from others in here or elsewhere? If you don't read a post in the same manner as he does, you're wrong, and that's all there is to it!

Glass houses and hypocricsy abound.

No never noticed that?????

PapaG · Post by **PapaG** » Fri May 27, 2005 11:15 pm

I have a rather unique perspective on this. My house mate my first two years at Bozeman happened to be African-American. He was my best friend from high school, and he was a track athlete before his knee couldn't take anymore. The best thing about him at MSU, though, was that he was in the School of Engineering. And he got his degree. And he is a successful engineer in CA right now.

I heard many, many things in Bozeman both directly and discretely when we were out hitting the bars together. A somewhat tangent byproduct was that I ended up being a liason of sorts between some of the black athletes and some of the idiot fraternity members (I was in a frat, so I can label the idiots who made fools of themselves) who would say stupid things around 1am.

Let me put it this way. We got denied an apartment at the Greentrees even though we would have paid 3 months in advance. We had to backdoor getting a place there. I hope Bozeman has changed, but I doubt it has.

mchammer · Post by **mchammer** » Mon May 30, 2005 9:05 pm

The Chronicle did a great job of covering the State Track Meet.

Mike Carignan

Bleedinbluengold · Post by **Bleedinbluengold** » Tue May 31, 2005 2:22 pm

WetWaderMT wrote:...but, I thought this was a place the average fan could voice their opinion. I guess I was wrong, especially when it comes to disagreeing with BAC. Lesson Learned!

You don't get to voice your opinion until you've posted in double figures [it's in the signup contract].

One more to go for you....Lucky for Jeff, he gets a waiver.

Grizlaw · Post by **Grizlaw** » Tue May 31, 2005 4:26 pm

Just a few random thoughts.

First, in my own opinion, this article was fine. I think writing about issues like this is always difficult, because everybody has their own threshhold as to what they are and are not comfortable with (or offended by), and anytime anyone writes an article on a touchy topic like this, they're always going to get some negative responses. But to me, this article was not offensive in the least.

Second, there was some discussion of the term "white-bread." Someone (I think it was Quast) was offended by the term. Again, I'm not going to tell someone that they're "wrong" to be offended, because as I said before, everybody has their own opinion of what is and isn't offensive. However, the term "white-bread" is not generally considered to be a slur or a derogatory comment. Merriam-Webster defines "white-bread" as "being typical of, or having qualities associated with the white middle class." Defined as such, it's not a slur; just an adjective to describe a place that is a predominantly white middle-class community (as Bozeman and most of Montana is). On the east coast, I've heard "white-bread" used to describe parts of New England -- again, people here who use the term don't intend it as an insult, just as a description of the place.

Anwyay, those are just my off-the-cuff thoughts. I may post more later...

mquast53000 · Post by **mquast53000** » Tue May 31, 2005 4:38 pm

Grizlaw wrote:Just a few random thoughts.
Second, there was some discussion of the term "white-bread." Someone (I think it was Quast) was offended by the term. Again, I'm not going to tell someone that they're "wrong" to be offended, because as I said before, everybody has their own opinion of what is and isn't offensive. However, the term "white-bread" is not generally considered to be a slur or a derogatory comment. Merriam-Webster defines "white-bread" as "being typical of, or having qualities associated with the white middle class." Defined as such, it's not a slur; just an adjective to describe a place that is a predominantly white middle-class community (as Bozeman and most of Montana is). On the east coast, I've heard "white-bread" used to describe parts of New England -- again, people here who use the term don't intend it as an insult, just as a description of the place.

Grizlaw if you get an unabridged dictionary you can find just about any word... You can go look up the word “Negro” and then read the definition. Now I am sure that you have heard people use this term to describe African Americans. Now through your rational this makes the term non-racist… Quoting a dictionary and people in New England isn't going to sell me on your argument.