Hauck Vs. Kramer

[Ponycat]

I've heard two seperate die hard griz say they wish they had Kramer.

and actually the Griz repeatedly tried to contact Kramer while he was interviewing with MSU. The week we was visiting was the same with that Dennehy left. Kramer or Glenn the Griz couldn't have gone wrong.

Finally I hate Hauck with a passion, but I'm sure he is fine with that and will try to make me hate him worse but bottom line he's no Earl Solomonson. Damn it.

[kmax]

Finally I hate Hauck with a passion, but I'm sure he is fine with that and will try to make me hate him worse but bottom line he's no Earl Solomonson. Damn it.

That has got to be one of the best lines I have ever read on here!

[El_Gato]

Do I wish we'd hired Hauck?

Once again I'll quote Austin Powers from the award-winning film "Goldmember":

HOW ABOUT NO

you crazy Dutch bastard?!

[iaafan]

Kramer was courted by UM after Dennehy left, but was already in the process of signing with MSU (had essentially given a verbal committment, if you will). The UM offer to Kramer was more lucrative than the MSU offer, but Kramer signed a deal with MSU and basically said he just couldn't do that...meaning dump on MSU for UM. He had always wanted to come back to MSU, but apparently the UM offer must've been tempting, because he still gets a big grin on his face whenever someone brings up the subject. He just says it's a story for another that he may tell over a beer. UM then went after Glenn, who was a candidate at some point during the process at MSU. At the time Glenn had led UNC to a pair of NCs, but ADs were a little wary for reasons that I'm not clear on. Glenn is the perfect example of using a school as a springboard. He picked up UM when it was in a relative trough, but still potent, and timed his departure nearly perfectly. I'd liked to have seen how UM did with he and Ochs/Disney teamed up during Ochs junior/senior seasons.
Glenn will probably be on his way up and out of Wyoming this year or next. Big 12/PAC 10.

[GFGriz]

Kramer was courted by UM after Dennehy left, but was already in the process of signing with MSU (had essentially given a verbal committment, if you will). The UM offer to Kramer was more lucrative than the MSU offer, but Kramer signed a deal with MSU and basically said he just couldn't do that...meaning dump on MSU for UM. He had always wanted to come back to MSU, but apparently the UM offer must've been tempting, because he still gets a big grin on his face whenever someone brings up the subject. He just says it's a story for another that he may tell over a beer. UM then went after Glenn, who was a candidate at some point during the process at MSU. At the time Glenn had led UNC to a pair of NCs, but ADs were a little wary for reasons that I'm not clear on. Glenn is the perfect example of using a school as a springboard. He picked up UM when it was in a relative trough, but still potent, and timed his departure nearly perfectly. I'd liked to have seen how UM did with he and Ochs/Disney teamed up during Ochs junior/senior seasons.
Glenn will probably be on his way up and out of Wyoming this year or next. Big 12/PAC 10.

My question was whether, when Coach Glenn left, there was any serious consideration on the part of UM to get Coach Kramer to Missoula. And the answer is, apparently, NO. I'm happy the 'Cats are satisfied with where Coach Kramer has taken them, i.e., a couple of playoff games and co-championships in the conference. Compared with where the 'Cats had been before, this is definitely an improvement. I suspect, however, that by the time Glenn left in '03, even given the 'Cats win over the Griz, Kramer's performance was not good enough to merit UM courting him. Neither school would be willing to swap coaches, I am sure.

[SonomaCat]

Isn't that just a tad arrogant [said the guy who knew he was stating the obvious]? Why would Kramer be interested in a lateral move within the state, especially to a team that he had just beaten on the road? I can't imagine that UM would assume that he would even consider such a move, especially with him knowing what he had already spent so much time and effort building.

Moving to UM would have done nothing for his career -- even if he were to become very successful at UM, his resume would look really messed up and his chances of moving up would have been blown. A person with tons of voluntary lateral moves on their resume is not one that you will hire for a prestige position in your organization. He already moved from EWU to MSU -- the next move is definitely way up and certainly not sideways or down.

[grizzh8r]

I would rather have Robin Potera than Hauck.

AHAHAH nice man! I think i would too.

[GFGriz]

Isn't that just a tad arrogant [said the guy who knew he was stating the obvious]? Why would Kramer be interested in a lateral move within the state, especially to a team that he had just beaten on the road? I can't imagine that UM would assume that he would even consider such a move, especially with him knowing what he had already spent so much time and effort building.

Moving to UM would have done nothing for his career -- even if he were to become very successful at UM, his resume would look really messed up and his chances of moving up would have been blown. A person with tons of voluntary lateral moves on their resume is not one that you will hire for a prestige position in your organization. He already moved from EWU to MSU -- the next move is definitely way up and certainly not sideways or down.

First, it isn't arrogant if it's true, and it's true. There's simply no evidence the University considered Coach Kramer for head coach when Joe Glenn left, although I heard he had previously been considered when Dennehy left. The only logical explanation is that during Coach Kramer's tenure at State, the University had seen what he might offer, and it wasn't impressed. Second, transferring from State to the University can't be considered a "lateral move", at least not in this universe. Google "Montana State" and "powerhouse", on the one hand, and then "Montana Grizzlies" and "powerhouse" on the other hand, if you have any doubts. If Coach Kramer had been offered the head coaching job at the University, and if he had taken the Griz to the National Championship, are you telling me that would NOT have been an addition to his resume? Puhleeze. If he had been offered the position and had not taken it, he would have been declared academically ineligible for future coaching jobs. That being said, I actually like Coach Kramer, and when Dennehy left, I was hoping he might take the helm of the Griz. I'm glad things worked out the way they did, however, and that both Coach Glenn and Coach Hauck took the Griz to the National Championship. And I'm ecstatic that the 'Cats are satisfied with Coach Kramer bringing them a couple of conference co-championships and a couple of play-off games.

[El_Gato]

GFGriz,

This is about the stupidest debate you've ever started (and that's saying something).

After Glenn left, there's NO WAY dUMb would've courted Kramer EVEN IF HE'D WON THE NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP HIS FIRST 3 YEARS AT MSU.

The reason? It's pretty damn simple, even for a griz fan: NEITHER MSU NOR dUMb IS EVER GOING TO CONSIDER THE "OTHER GUY'S COACH" AS A CANDIDATE FOR THEIR HEAD COACHING JOB. As I said, when Glenn left, even if Kramer was 45-0 with 3 NC's, there's no way the Griz would've tried to hire "a BOBCAT" to be their head coach and vice versa. If Kramer had left after year 3, there's no way the Cats would've even looked up Joe Glenn's phone #.

[couloir41]

gato...

actually, if my memory serves me well...MSU offered the job to Read before they offered it to Krames...Read reportedly considered the job but for a huge outcry from the griz faithful threatening everything from disowning Read to doing disgusting things to his stuffed Montie Read backed away from negotiating...thus Krames was indeed offered...wala...we landed a great coach...a strange but true story...

[El_Gato]

c,

I've talked to a number of people about this one as I've heard it too & I've come to the conclusion think it's an "urban legend". His name definitely came up but my understanding is the job was never offered to Papa Bear.

BUT,

even if we did talk to Read my point is that neither school would talk to the CURRENT head coach of the other program. I could see us talking to Read after he'd been gone from dUMb for a few years. I could see the Griz talking to, say, Sonny Lubick after he'd been out of Bozeman for awhile.

I just can't see EITHER school ever wanting the other school's current head coach. That would be like incest; well, maybe that's a bad analogy but it would be messed up to say the least. There's no way I'd have supported us going after Joe Glenn following any of his 3 seasons in Missoula; it just wouldn't be right.

[GFGriz]

c,

I've talked to a number of people about this one as I've heard it too & I've come to the conclusion think it's an "urban legend". His name definitely came up but my understanding is the job was never offered to Papa Bear.

BUT,

even if we did talk to Read my point is that neither school would talk to the CURRENT head coach of the other program. I could see us talking to Read after he'd been gone from dUMb for a few years. I could see the Griz talking to, say, Sonny Lubick after he'd been out of Bozeman for awhile.

I just can't see EITHER school ever wanting the other school's current head coach. That would be like incest; well, maybe that's a bad analogy but it would be messed up to say the least. There's no way I'd have supported us going after Joe Glenn following any of his 3 seasons in Missoula; it just wouldn't be right.

I agree with your assessment from the perspective of State. State would NEVER hire anyone connected with the Griz, even if it would improve their chances. In the end, the mindless "we don't need a reason to hate 'em, we just hate 'em" philosophy will always rule, even if it works to their detriment. This thread proves that, with State fans, like lemmings, tripping over themeselves in stating they would NEVER want a coach who has already taken the Griz to the National Championship. ABSOLUTELY NOT. Again, a couple of conference co-championships and playoff games will always be preferable for State, so long as the alternative is a chance to go to the big game with a former Griz. The University would hire WHOEVER might take the Griz to Chattanooga, even if they were connected with State (probably especially if they were connected with State). And the Griz faithful would embrace him, if he took them to the National Championship. There's just a world if difference between the mindsets of the two schools and their fans, as you prove.

[El_Gato]

Ok, Mr. Holier-than-thou, you're telling me that same mindset doesn't exist within the griz fan sorority?

The animosity goes both ways, whether your pomposity will allow you to admit it or not. I'm fairly certain there's an equal # of members here and on egriz who routinely rip the other school's team, program, coaches, and fans. As much as you seem to think you are personally "above the fray", your previous posts prove you wrong.

The administrators at both schools understand the dynamic of Bobcats vs Grizzlies and I'm pretty sure they realize the PR monster they'd create if they pursued "the other guys" current coach. Personally, I just could never see it happening.

[GFGriz]

Ok, Mr. Holier-than-thou, you're telling me that same mindset doesn't exist within the griz fan sorority?

The animosity goes both ways, whether your pomposity will allow you to admit it or not. I'm fairly certain there's an equal # of members here and on egriz who routinely rip the other school's team, program, coaches, and fans. As much as you seem to think you are personally "above the fray", your previous posts prove you wrong.

The administrators at both schools understand the dynamic of Bobcats vs Grizzlies and I'm pretty sure they realize the PR monster they'd create if they pursued "the other guys" current coach. Personally, I just could never see it happening.

Therapy might help you. I'm not sure, though. I'm just not sure.

[El_Gato]

OUCH.

That hurt.

[thecitygriz]

i don't think there's a griz fan out there who doesn't have at least a grudging admiration for kramer and the job he's done in bozeman.

at the same time, i don't think there's a griz fan out there ruefully regretting the course montana football has taken the past five years--an n.c. among three title game appearances, a combined 60-13 (.822) record under the glenn-hauck regimes.

meanwhile, hauck and montana have continued their in-state recruiting dominance well into the kramer era, getting murphy, bagley, schulte, muller, hartman and brown out our great falls, the lebsock kids out of billings, the utterback brothers out of fort benton, the big offensive linemen hillesland and dyk, the palmers out of missoula, schmidt out of--gasp!--bozeman, the thomas brothers from dillon, schillinger out of baker, tuff harris out of colstrip, dan carptenter out of helena. no question kramer has improved the cats's in-state reputation, but when it comes to signing the key in-state recruits, the griz's record approaches that of their winning percentage the past five years.

of course, this is a key year for kramer. he said when he took the job he couldn't beat the griz until he could beat them at quarterback. with the gifted lulay now a senior and serious payton candidate (while the griz lose their star qb) kramer needs a big year, which means a serious playoff run. failing that, and with all the talent hauck has stockpiled among his underclassmen, the next two or three years could see a continuing uphill struggle for the cats against their hated rival.

[Savage Paw]

I know many Griz wish that many Griz fans wish we would have hired Kramer for head coach. I'm one of them and know others. Does anyone in the Bobcat Nation wish you had hired Hauck?

Savage is dilusional, perhaps the victim of multiple-personality disorder. He may even have convinced himself he's a Griz fan. The "many Griz fans" he's referring to who "wish we would have hired Kramer for head coach" are all in his own little head. Kind of like Gollum. I know a lot of Griz fans who are amused by Coach Kramer, but since the time he was hired by the 'Cats, the Griz have been to the NC game repeatedly. Nobody in Missoula would trade that away. When Coach Glenn left, I never even heard Coach Kramer's name mentioned as a possible replacement. Does anyone on this board have evidence that Coach Kramer was on Montana's radar? I doubt it. No offense to Coach Kramer, mind you, but the Griz are happy with their coaches.

Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah..........GFGriz. There are other Griz fans out there not being clouded by there rose colored glasses who wanted Kramer. So when the Griz are 5-5 are you still going to travel to Missoula for the games? When Hauck finally crashes the Griz we'll see just how many of you so called Griz fans with your rose colored glass stick around. Hauck get out coached at times. He gets a 10pt lead then runs the ball. In the BigSky with all the big offenses you can't do that. Switching to time management to early in the game will get you into a close match in the 4th quarter. If there is 8 minutes left in the 4th quarter and you have a 10pt lead I can see burning some clock but Hauck does it in the early and mid 3rd quarter then ends up with a close game on his hands. We were 2 plays away from not being in the playoffs last year. If they had not gotten lucky and blocked those two field goals the Griz would have went home. Then in the Playoffs the Griz benefited big-time from upsets and were given home field advantage because of it. Be an objective fan. If being Co-champions is good enough for you then so be it. I want another 17 year run over the Cats and another title or two and Hauck won't do that. He's too conservatives at times to coach in a high scoring league like ours.

[El_Gato]

citygriz,

I think it's a bit premature to be touting MOST of the kids you mentioned. Murphy, Harris, and (elder) Utterback are the only ones who've had an impact for the Griz so far. I'm amazed you'd even put the name Hartman on that list now that we all know what a head-case he is. Carpenter had a decent freshman year but kicking is a very "quirky" position and he definitely stumbled a bit at times last year; I'd say the jury is still out on him.

This whole thing brings me back to a common theme here: Did Hauck get these kids? Or did the the Griz tradition? I still think the success, the "aura", the stadium, and the gameday experience bring in more kids than Hauck has or ever will. Try this: Would Hauck have gotten any of the kids you mentioned if he was in Bozeman? I SERIOUSLY doubt it.

[SonomaCat]

First, it isn't arrogant if it's true, and it's true. There's simply no evidence the University considered Coach Kramer for head coach when Joe Glenn left, although I heard he had previously been considered when Dennehy left. The only logical explanation is that during Coach Kramer's tenure at State, the University had seen what he might offer, and it wasn't impressed. Second, transferring from State to the University can't be considered a "lateral move", at least not in this universe. Google "Montana State" and "powerhouse", on the one hand, and then "Montana Grizzlies" and "powerhouse" on the other hand, if you have any doubts. If Coach Kramer had been offered the head coaching job at the University, and if he had taken the Griz to the National Championship, are you telling me that would NOT have been an addition to his resume? Puhleeze. If he had been offered the position and had not taken it, he would have been declared academically ineligible for future coaching jobs. That being said, I actually like Coach Kramer, and when Dennehy left, I was hoping he might take the helm of the Griz. I'm glad things worked out the way they did, however, and that both Coach Glenn and Coach Hauck took the Griz to the National Championship. And I'm ecstatic that the 'Cats are satisfied with Coach Kramer bringing them a couple of conference co-championships and a couple of play-off games.

I think you're failing to look at things from several perspectives.

1. Money. Why would somebody quit a job and take another comparable job for equal to less money?

2. Loyalty. Do you think any prestigious program would hire a coach who jumped from rival to rival?

3. The perspective of the future employer. What looks better -- to build a program from nothing into a national championship contender, or to be a mercenary who would change teams like an aged NBA veteran in search of finding a team to carry him to a title (either in reality or just in appearance)?

For all of those reasons, it would never have made any sense for Kramer to even consider leaving MSU for UM when Glenn left. The idea is just absurd, and I'm sure if you weren't so entrenched in the various Cat/Griz arguments on different threads, you'd pull back and objectively realize that. You're a bright guy who seems to have an understanding of how the world works, so absent the motive to flame MSU, I'm sure you know the truth.

[thecitygriz]

El Gato:
i didn't mean to brag on how great these kids are. clearly, hartman did not do us--or himself--any good, and the jury is still out on many others.
i bring up these names only to mention that at the time of their recruitment, they were considered among the premier players in montana, and both schools were after them. you got some good ones, and you got some great ones--goodman and hoffenbacker were three-star players. but montana continues to get most of the kids they want. sure, tradition helps, and the virtual certainty of post-season play is a huge plus, but i don't think you should let your personal animosity toward hauck get in the way of giving him deserved credit.
as to kramer, i really like the guy, especially his wacky often comedic comments, and his openess with press. i wish hauck had his p.r. skills. even without getting the top montana talent, kramer has the cats right in the thick of it every year, and he's definitely won my respect. i think that's pretty much standard now with all montana fans.
oh--and the cats make it to the n.c.? i'm rooting for them!