Poll

MSU88 · Post by **MSU88** » Thu Feb 03, 2005 9:42 am

BozoneCat wrote:
Bay Area Cat wrote:To harp on one of my usual points, what does the last phrase mean, exactly? Has he simply not conspired to overthrow the state government, or is there a higher bar set to make one "loyal" to the state? How does one fal short of the loyalty test?
BAC, a "loyal Montanan" is everything you are not, since you were so easily swayed into seceding over to Hell's Empire (i.e., California). A "loyal Montanan" hates anything and everything that isn't originally from the state of Montana, and would never even think of leaving, even if it meant giving up the prospects of better jobs and double wages.

Pssst... sarcasm, people!!! I agree 110% with BAC on this one.

I loyal Montanan is a coach or player who does not jump ship for another job/team after a great season, one who does not demand more money/ time on the floor, one who takes responsibilities for his mistakes and one who treats his players/teamamtes with respect......and one who puts the University first and his individual accomplishments second.

Pat Kennedy at UM was the perfect example of what not being a loyal Montanan is all about! Is this the type of coach MSU wants down the line?

mthoops · Post by **mthoops** » Thu Feb 03, 2005 10:06 am

Pat Kennedy at UM was the perfect example of what not being a loyal Montanan is all about! Is this the type of coach MSU wants down the line?

You are right about Pat Kennedy. What a TrainWreck! I have heard people talk about Mick's job for SEVERAL years now. Some because they don't like him, some because they think the Cats should be going to the Final Four every year, some because they think he's a bad coach, and some because they truly have nothing better to do.

I guess when it comes down to it, you have to remember that the grass isn't always greener on the other side, i.e. Don Holst (1 regular season conference championship & 1 conference tournament championship in 4 years) TO Pat Kennedy (worst 2 season record in Griz history). Granted, Mick has made his mistakes, but it is always much easier to focus on the negative than it is the positive. Over the years, Mick has done a good job of recruiting, he has shown poise and resiliance, and he has always held Bobcat basketball to a high standard.

Not that Mick is at the age to move on and work his way through the bigger coaching ranks, but does anyone remember when Montana State fired a football coaching staff that included Joe Tiller, Sonny Lubick & Dennis Erickson. My point being that Firing isn't always the answer, even if it is the easiest and popular thing to do.

Post by **SonomaCat** » Thu Feb 03, 2005 11:47 am

MSU88 wrote:
BozoneCat wrote:
Bay Area Cat wrote:To harp on one of my usual points, what does the last phrase mean, exactly? Has he simply not conspired to overthrow the state government, or is there a higher bar set to make one "loyal" to the state? How does one fal short of the loyalty test?
BAC, a "loyal Montanan" is everything you are not, since you were so easily swayed into seceding over to Hell's Empire (i.e., California). A "loyal Montanan" hates anything and everything that isn't originally from the state of Montana, and would never even think of leaving, even if it meant giving up the prospects of better jobs and double wages.

Pssst... sarcasm, people!!! I agree 110% with BAC on this one.
I loyal Montanan is a coach or player who does not jump ship for another job/team after a great season, one who does not demand more money/ time on the floor, one who takes responsibilities for his mistakes and one who treats his players/teamamtes with respect......and one who puts the University first and his individual accomplishments second.

Pat Kennedy at UM was the perfect example of what not being a loyal Montanan is all about! Is this the type of coach MSU wants down the line?

So you mean someone who is loyal to the Bobcat program... which is not the same as being loyal to Montana. I seem to recall a lot of great Bobcats who weren't from Montana, and I remember a lot of Montana people who bailed out on the program.

You're also potentially describing someone with no better offers... so it's a double-edged sword. I know you are just using this specific argument because it happens to work for Durham, and you are a Durham backer (which it great), but that whole blanket "Montana loyalty" thing is a bit bogus to me. If Durham had an offer from UCLA for 10x his MSU salary, I'm sure he'd give it a good look, even though he was born and raised within the geographic boundaries of Montana. Conversely, I'm not going to look past any coach simply because they were raised outside of Montana -- Kramer comes to mind.

I thought Kennedy was a trainwreck before he even started at UM -- I wasn't shocked by what happened with that at all. That had nothing to do with where he was from, though, it was due to his past track record (which foreshadowed his UM time quite well). So of course I would never want a coach like him at MSU, but his "Montana loyalty" has nothing to do with it.

mthoops · Post by **mthoops** » Thu Feb 03, 2005 12:25 pm

BayAreaCat, I definitely agree with you about Pat Kennedy's previous track record. He had been consistently going downhill before Montana. It was just a simple fact of Wayne Hogan hooking a buddy up, I think. It's just too bad a lot of good people/coaches got hurt in the process.

As far as Mick's "loyalty". I think it's much more accurate to say he has been loyal to Bobcat Basketball. If a better job had come his way and he took it, that wouldn't mean that he wasn't loyal to Bobcat Basketball.

MSU88 · Post by **MSU88** » Thu Feb 03, 2005 1:59 pm

So you mean someone who is loyal to the Bobcat program... which is not the same as being loyal to Montana. I seem to recall a lot of great Bobcats who weren't from Montana, and I remember a lot of Montana people who bailed out on the program.

Yes....you state it best.......loyality to the Bobcat program.....!!
We have had some great non-Montanans who have been awesome for MSU in all sports!

MSU88 · Post by **MSU88** » Thu Feb 03, 2005 2:06 pm

mthoops wrote:
Not that Mick is at the age to move on and work his way through the bigger coaching ranks, but does anyone remember when Montana State fired a football coaching staff that included Joe Tiller, Sonny Lubick & Dennis Erickson. My point being that Firing isn't always the answer, even if it is the easiest and popular thing to do.

This is the BEST point I have heard over the weeks on the "Should Mick go?" question.

Cat Grad · Post by **Cat Grad** » Thu Feb 03, 2005 2:17 pm

What would Duke be today if they'd fired Coach K after his first half a dozen years; besides, Tiller is from Ohio and Dennis is from Washington, to they're really not Montanan anyway...wait until the season is over before you decide to fire Mick. And I wonder why I don't want to ever coach again...

Post by **rtb** » Thu Feb 03, 2005 2:37 pm

Cat Grad wrote:What would Duke be today if they'd fired Coach K after his first half a dozen years; besides, Tiller is from Ohio and Dennis is from Washington, to they're really not Montanan anyway...wait until the season is over before you decide to fire Mick. And I wonder why I don't want to ever coach again...

I just wanted to point of how flawed this comparison is:

-In Coach K's first six year he compiled a record of 122-68(.642)
-He led the team to the NCAA Tournament 3 of the six year(starting in 1984 and that streak didn't end until 1995)
-In 1986, the sixth year he was there Duke played for a National Championship
-In 1986 he was also named coach of the year for the ACC and Nationally.

Coach K and Coach Durham can not be compared. Durham has won two conference titles in 14 seasons and his record is barely above .500.

If you are going to make a comparison at least compare to similar things.

Cat Grad · Post by **Cat Grad** » Thu Feb 03, 2005 2:49 pm

Okay, break it down year by year for Duke...then get real. Heathcoate was let go by WAZZU before reviving his career in Mazzola. About the only cure for a job of "poor coaching" is a group of kids that can execute the plays, but "by gawd" they'd better be Montana kids...and again...get real. Mike Lewis from Missoula Sentinal and Kryskowiak are what? the only two Montana kids to ever make a penny from the NBA?

mthoops · Post by **mthoops** » Thu Feb 03, 2005 2:51 pm

Serious question: How many times have the Cats appeared in the "Big Dance" under Durham? I know for sure once against Syracuse (Quadre Lollis era).

Post by **kmax** » Thu Feb 03, 2005 2:53 pm

mthoops wrote:Serious question: How many times have the Cats appeared in the "Big Dance" under Durham? I know for sure once against Syracuse (Quadre Lollis era).

That would be it for Big Dance appearances. They did go to the NIT and won their first round game in 2002 however.

jagur1 · Post by **jagur1** » Thu Feb 03, 2005 2:54 pm

John Wooden would be better. He had almost no success his first 10 years at UCLA> Comparing coaches from a power league really isn't fair to the MSU coach. No matter how bad the team or college, ACC and PAC 10 coaches have a better chance of turning things around. Unless the school has such tough standards regarding education the team is doomed to be out recruited by the warm body schools. Still,.....Monty did a great job at Stanford and it didn't take him 14 years. Ah heck fire the guy.

Cat Grad · Post by **Cat Grad** » Thu Feb 03, 2005 2:58 pm

Try considering the Big Sky's record in the tournament; ISU made the elite 8 once, Idaho once, Weber won their first round game once and everyone else considers it a good showing if they keep it within 30...yet we all know our kids are not allowed to play the game the way it's evolved because of our officiating, and we still complain that we're not the one getting to the first round getting our hind ends kicked and embarassed?

Cat Grad · Post by **Cat Grad** » Thu Feb 03, 2005 2:59 pm

...and I think the NIT win against USU was a play-in game...

mthoops · Post by **mthoops** » Thu Feb 03, 2005 3:00 pm

How has MSU's basketball fan attendance been over the past few years? I know it's been better than UM's. If it's stayed steady, that's got to be a credit to Mick. Because I know some coaches in Missoula have been BLAMED for attendance woes!

Cat Grad · Post by **Cat Grad** » Thu Feb 03, 2005 3:02 pm

Hey, how many points did Donovan McNabb score for Syracuse when they beat the Cats? None? Did he even get to play?

Post by **rtb** » Thu Feb 03, 2005 3:31 pm

Cat Grad wrote:Try considering the Big Sky's record in the tournament; ISU made the elite 8 once, Idaho once, Weber won their first round game once and everyone else considers it a good showing if they keep it within 30...yet we all know our kids are not allowed to play the game the way it's evolved because of our officiating, and we still complain that we're not the one getting to the first round getting our hind ends kicked and embarassed?

I don't think anyone is expecting Durham to be taking MSU beyond the first or second round, all the time, but people want to see more consistant success that shows we are moving up and becoming a legitimate mid-major. That is the main complaint from most fans that want to see Mick go.

Again, I am not going to state my position during the BSC season. When the season is over I will move to one side or the other of this discussion.

Regarding MSU's basketball fan support I would say it has been declining the past few years. I don't know the figures exactly, but even if the numbers haven't declined the enthusiasm has for sure. There are many times that the fieldhouse feels like a quite living room, not a basketball arena.

As far as the 1996 box score, I am still working on that.

mjc · Post by **mjc** » Thu Feb 03, 2005 3:56 pm

I would bet that the excitement for "mid" college programs have lost some attendance during the last 10 years or so. With so many games to watch on cable and satelite - it's probably easier and cheaper to stay home and watch them. I've been to NAU, ISU and Weber to watch games, and there were almost as many Bobcat fans in the stands as the home teams.

Mick runs a clean program - that counts a lot for me.

Cat Grad · Post by **Cat Grad** » Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:02 pm

Yes, the atmosphere in and around Bozo has changed considerably in the nearly thirty years since I grew up in the Valley for sure. Can't believe the Winter Fair is in Lewistown, the Rodeo got ran off campus, that wine is probably the preferred beverage today, that a house sale averages over 200k, and with it has come a more mellow fan. Definitely a shock compared to living in the south for most of those years where basketball is more of an afterthought (as it seems to be in Bozo also). Times change, and I'd like to think our conference will one day join the 21st century and send officials to national conferences, but that is a whole nother thread. I just think Mick has done a pretty good job considering the limitations placed upon our school and our programs. What's happened in the past can't be changed, but we should be cognizant of our limitations. When we look at our budget, it's amazing to me that he's been able to stay even. Gosh, just a few years ago he went out and had a tremendous preseason record playing with great ballplayers groomed on the national caliber of play, then they "swooned" in Big Sky competition. It's almost as if our kids are forced to play with one hand tied behind their back. But, what goes around comes around and I'm sure if we're patient, the rest of the conference will realize basketball is in fact a contact sport, not a free throw shooting contest. I hope we never get on the coaching cycle in basketball we got into with football starting in the seventies...

Cat-theotherwhitemeat · Post by **Cat-theotherwhitemeat** » Thu Feb 03, 2005 5:40 pm

BobCatFan wrote:2/3 of this borad think Mick should go. Not the support of confidence that a coach needs...

BobCatFan,
I Love ya man, but here's a math lesson...

2/3 = 66.66%
33/62 = 53.23

Now, there's a 13.43% difference between your remark and the actual data. I'm going to have to vote "no" on your sponsored bill of removing Mick. Holy crap, I need the legislative session to be over.

Edit.... just realized your post was long ago. I've obviously had too much coffee.

Should Mick go after this season?

Re: my vote..... and a hello

Re: my vote..... and a hello

Re: my vote..... and a hello