5 year evaluation

FootballFan · Post by **FootballFan** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 10:37 am

I know those of you love Kramer and feel he is the greatest thing since sliced bread won't like my post, but lets look at the facts.

Compare Kramer's first five years against his predecessor Hysell's first five years.

Kramer is 25 -34 a winning % of 42.4%
Hysell was 25 - 30 a winning % of 45.5%

Hysell record was against a more difficult conference shedule (Idaho and Boise St. the first 4 yrs.) Hysell took over a program that had not had a winning season in 7 years (since the "84" team), and didn't have the advantage of the facilities and backing of the QB club that Kramer has had.

Kramer took over a program that was 7 - 4 two years earlier and played the Griz for the conference championship, has had the advantage of great facilities, had the financial support of a QB club that no other coach has had. We all know about the off field problems with his coaching staff, and lets not forget two of the most embarrasing losses in MSU history, Humblot State in 2000 and the homecoming loss to Central Washington in 2002.

To Kramers credit he has beaten the Griz twice, I know this means a tremendous amount. He has done an outstanding job of selling and promoting the program, much better than Hysell ever did.

My whole point though is lets not anoint him King just yet! His best record is 6 & 5! Make all the excuses you want, yes they make things exciting, he does a great job on TV and radio, but it still boils down to coaching and winning games and in my opinion he has done no better than his predecessor, his record proves that.

P.S. You certainly don't have to worry about losing him to another program. Who in the hell is going to hire a coach that has a losing record over the past 5 years and who's best season during that time is one game above .500! Dan Hawkins he is not.

Wait till next year! Wait till next year! That's been the saying the past 3 season's. The jury is still out as far as I am concerned as to whether he capable of ever winning 8-9 games? He had better do it next year because #14 only has one year left.

CARDIAC_CATS · Post by **CARDIAC_CATS** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 10:47 am

I like Kramer and Hysell equally well. Kramer has a little better PR than Hysell, but I think both of them are good coaches. All I know is Kramer has this team in the correct mindset/preparation that every game they go into our players have a CAN WIN THIS GAME attitude. And I like that a lot. How many of you have gone into a game these last 4 years thinking that we had no WAY of beating the team we were playing? I can't think of any (and this includes the WYOMING/CSU/WSU games). With the talent/coaching we have been getting this program is slowly building into a very good program. Are we up on the Griz level yet? NO, but we are almost ready to turn tha corner. I guarantee you that there were MANY Griz fans that were worried about our team this past weekend. They might not say it out loud, but from the faces/posts on EGRIZ/BOBCATION NATION you could definately see it. Which is good as the rivalry is that much better that way.

I'm not annointing Kramer as anything but a solid coach that is getting our program on the rebound. He is a class act and his focus on academics with his players is TOP NOTCH. I don't see ANYONE out there that would be better for our program than Krames. He deserves a lot of credit.

WYCAT · Post by **WYCAT** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 10:50 am

Can't argue with a lot of what you are saying. I think my biggest disappointment is that this season was supposed to be that next step year and our step was really back down a notch. I think most people associated with the Cats from fans to players to coaches had high expectations of not only getting into the playoffs but hosting a game. I remember Kramer making a lot of comments to that effect in the off season.

Also agree with your comment about next year. We have the more favorable home conference schedule (4 home 3 away) and Lulay and a mostly intact offense returning. Go 6-5 again and I think your views will be shared by a lot more people.

WYCAT · Post by **WYCAT** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 10:53 am

I'm not annointing Kramer as anything but a solid coach that is getting our program on the rebound. He is a class act and his focus on academics with his players is TOP NOTCH. I don't see ANYONE out there that would be better for our program than Krames. He deserves a lot of credit.

Well said Cardiac. He does a ton of good things for the program, university, and mostly the kids that has nothing to do with wins/losses. For that alone he deserves a lot of credit.

El_Gato · Post by **El_Gato** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 10:54 am

Nice try.

Kramer vs Hysell? You compared ONE category; wins & losses. Yes, Kramer's best record is 6-5. His 0-11 first season rightfully belongs to Hysell, but that's only the beginning...

How many Big Sky titles did Hysell win? ZERO IN 8 YEARS.
How many times did the Cats have a shot at the BSC title in the final 2 weeks of the season? ONCE IN 8 YEARS. Kramer? 3 times in 5 years.

As a promoter of the program; which guy "presses the flesh" better? Kramer; in this category it's NO CONTEST. Hysell was a NEGATIVE when it came to this. One thing that has always struck me: Kramer ALWAYS leaves me feeling good about MSU & our football program whenever I'm around him. Could never say that about Hysell.

Which guy meant/means more to the Athletic Department's budgets? Go ask Peter Fields what the donations look like today vs at anytime during Hysell's tenure; again, it's NO CONTEST. Kramer has meant TENS, IF NOT HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS MORE to the Athletic Department than Hysell did. IMHO, Kramer has done more to advance our Athletic Department than ANY SINGLE PERSON in the 25 years I've closely followed MSU.

Our program was in mediocre shape AT BEST when Kramer took it over. Couple that with how difficult it is to recruit to Bozeman vs UM; weather, stadium, crowd support, recent tradition, etc. ALL make it easier for Montana kids to lean toward UM rather than to MSU. Given that, I still think we've gotten some GREAT Montana kids but unfortunately Kramer has had to look outside the borders for decent athletes...

Am I happy with 6-5 records? No. Am I happy that we've won 2 of the last 3 BSC titles? Yes. And because of the job Kramer & Co. have done, I'm confident that we will be in the thick of next year's title chase as well. Face it: We had a much-worse-than-average year injury-wise; if that ONE situation is normal or better than average, I still believe we'd be getting ready for a playoff game right now & bitching about our seeding, just like the griz.

Your perspective is skewed, my friend. Bobcat football is in better shape than at ANY TIME since the National Championship in 1984 PERIOD.

Thank you Coach Kramer & Co. Keep up the fight!

BelgradeBobcat · Post by **BelgradeBobcat** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 10:58 am

This is the first year Kramer didn't have the team playing better at the end of the season than the beginning. Hysell's teams always seemed to fade.

Attendance records are being set under Kramer's watch-12K average in a non-griz season is as good as we've ever done.

Hysell played a very conservative style of football-it kept us in a lot of games, but frankly it was a little boring to watch at times. For better or worse college football is entertainment, and Kramer embraces that, Hysell despised it.

Kramer got us into the playoffs twice-Hysell never got us over that hump.

I think Hysell was the right guy at the time. He stabilized things and got it moving in the right direction. But at the end he was done (some seem to forget that Hysell retired-he wasn't fired) he physically couldn't have done it anymore. So a coaching change had to happen-and if not Kramer who?

And finally, as you said, Kramer has beaten the griz twice already. That is absolutely huge.

CARDIAC_CATS · Post by **CARDIAC_CATS** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 11:07 am

I think Hysell was the right guy at the time. He stabilized things and got it moving in the right direction. But at the end he was done (some seem to forget that Hysell retired-he wasn't fired) he physically couldn't have done it anymore. So a coaching change had to happen-and if not Kramer who?

Yep, excellent analysis. Hysell stepped down and who else was there out there. I don't know about anyone else, but I AM PROUD Kramer is our coach as he is a class act and a great coach/great leader for these kids. Like he said last year, only 1 % go onto the NFL so I think for a coach and what he means to his players in the long run is HUGE. Yes, I want the great W-L record and the playoffs etc. We have already experienced the playoffs twice in 5 years under Kramer. Not counting the first year debacle 0-11 season, we have gone to playoffs 2 our of 4 times. That is a pretty good percent considering that we know the Griz will usually always be towards the top in the conference (it sucks, but we all know its the truth), so that makes it even harder to get into the playoffs especially when you have a great team such as EW in line as well. Look at Cal Poly, they had 3 losses and they didn't get in?????? I THINK THAT IS NUTS!

So in short, this season was VERY POSITIVE again .... we definately had some key injuries early in the year where guys were out and I think some of the fill in guys may have ran into the wall towards the end of the year after playing their hearts out early in the year to keep up. This is going to be diamonds in the rough for us next year if our players WORK HARD and we get a few more key transfers or some of our redshirts come in and play awesome. I think going into next year we have a lot LESS holes to fill than we did going into this year? Whats everyone's take on that issue?

catatac · Post by **catatac** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 11:07 am

I'm on the "no comparison" side. Kramer has built a solid program. He has built in a winning attitude and we are turning the corner. this year's hangover after losing the talent we had defensively, coupled with the injury situation in the secondary that can't be ignored, was huge. Also, it took too long for the O to click, or we would probably have beaten Cal Poly handily. Soulds like a bunch of excuses I know, but stay tuned. I'm confident in this staff's ability to shore up the D and we'll be looking at an 8-3 record next year, worst case. Yes, I'm throwing that catatac prediction out there this early!!!

WYCAT · Post by **WYCAT** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 11:12 am

This is going to be diamonds in the rough for us next year if our players WORK HARD and we get a few more key transfers or some of our redshirts come in and play awesome. I think going into next year we have a lot LESS holes to fill than we did going into this year? Whats everyone's take on that issue?

Big time. Last season we were replacing the majority of the skill positions, i.e. WR, RB, CB, Safeties, not to mention a larger portion of both lines. This season it is really concentrated on the running game and the defensive front. Two areas that can be improved with either incoming freshmen and/or transfers.

El_Gato · Post by **El_Gato** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 11:33 am

bearBAC wrote:His recruiting plan is a tad bit suspect also. The weakness the cats show in depth can be place on no ones sholders other than krames - he ran off a ton of Hysells player and mostly replaced them with Jc's that didn't pan out.

embearassed,

Since I'm a bit closer to the Cats program than you are, I will offer you the following.

When Kramer came to town, he didn't "run off a ton" of Hysell's players. They ran themselves off when they saw how extremely the expectations levels had been raised. Weight room, conditioning, and off-season work ALL became MUCH bigger points of emphasis under Kramer than they were under Hysell; some kids simply decided they didn't want to be a part of it.

I know specifically of a local kid who I was stunned to see went to MSU to play under Hysell; I was stunned because I watched the kid closely in High School and felt he had nowhere near the heart & work ethic it takes to be a collegiate athlete. He was doing just fine mentally under Cliff, but then quit during what would have been his junior year under Kramer. Why? Don't know the reason he gave, but I know it was because he was too "soft" to play college football at Kramer's level of expectations. This kid was typical of the kids that bailed that first year; Kramer didn't run them off, their own lack of desire, heart, and work ethic ran them off...

Stick to your own level of expertise, the griz. If you think we were tougher to beat under Hysell, you've obviously already received an early prescription for Montana's latest "medicine"...

Post by **SonomaCat** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 11:43 am

Footballfan: I'm a little confused as to why you want to bring up this topic -- all it will accomplish is people making unfavorable comparisons between Kramer and Hysell, which really isn't doing justice to either man. Why set up Hysell for what you know will be unfavorable comparisons to Kramer? I think most MSU fans are happy to remember Hysell as a good guy and leave it at that. But let's not press the issue -- if forced to pick between the two, few will opt for Hysell over Kramer.

Helcat72 · Post by **Helcat72** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 11:53 am

I still say that the reason we can't recruit the depth that the friz have is because of money. There is no other difference between the two schools. There is also no other reason for Kramer not to handout partials to every highschool star who shows interest.

I can see why he doesn't make this public...he doesn't want to sound like a whiner, he doesn't want his players feel like they are playing with a big handicap, so he makes getting a scholarship an earned bonus rather than an entitlement for a great highschool career.

This has two precariuous results however....it makes injuries to key personnel difficult at best to correct....and when those key injuries are not shored up by the late season it makes it difficult to sustain a high level of competition. We are still in the unenviable position of taking chances on players that might or might not be great players depending on injuries, academics or other shortcomings.

We depend on kids that want to come in here and make themselves players rather than those that have already been dubbed as stars in highschool. We frankly can't afford the latter! We have to offer a few out of state players scholarships to sustain the infrastructure necessary to compete...but the finishing touches that make or break our season is made up of over achievers that have the will to excel over and above what they were perceived by recruiters...the Beau Clarks, Blake Wolfs, Ray Sebestyns and Brant Birklands.

I think coach Kramer has done an excellent job of using the pluses available at MSU to build the football team into a contender. Look at the other teams in the conference who don't even have to ask boosters for money to offer scholarships. In some cases as in most universities the players don't know how fortunate they are in getting an opportunity at an education. Kramer sells the University and makes the opportunity more difficult to attain so that players know that getting a scholarship to MSU is something special. All in all we are very lucky to have such an energetic coach to build our program.

velochat · Post by **velochat** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 12:26 pm

I give Hysell a lot of credit for resurrecting the program from comatose, if not dead, following the "option years". He also was handicapped with inferior facilities and ultimately with crippling health problems.

I give K

credit for taking it to another level (he had the vastly better facilities), and being a great ambassador for the University, as well as the football program. The nature of college sports is that you need to rebuild constantly, and everybody is going to have problems maintaining things every year. In the future, MSU needs more depth (it's certainly improved), in all phases of the game. I wish Mike Kramer and company a great off season, and welcome basketball season.

BozoneCat · Post by **BozoneCat** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 1:30 pm

Agree that I am a big fan of Kramer. He has done a lot for this program, but the #1 key thing he did was change the attitude of everyone associated with the program. Guys come in here and expect to win now, instead of hoping. We don't want to backdoor ourselves into championships by other teams losing, we want to earn them by winning. This is the single biggest difference between teams like Montana and everyone else - the expectation to win. You wonder why teams always make bone-headed plays to lose to the griz? I'll tell you why: they are hoping the clock runs out before they screw something up to lose the game. You could see that same look of inevitibility in our opponents' eyes this year - they just knew Travis was going to come back and win somehow.

I sat with Mike Kramer's family at the game this weekend. Behind every great man is a great woman, and he has 3 of them! I made sure to tell his wife after the game, "I don't know how much you'll hear it this week, but I wanted to tell you that I think Mike is doing a great job, and I hope he sticks around for a long time." I think she appreciated that.

Mike does have some pressure for next year, though. I think he would be the first to tell you that 7-6 and 6-5 seasons are not going to do it. We look to be loaded on offense next year, but he has a lot of rebuilding to do on defense - who'd a thunk that Kwiatkowski would be more maligned than Bailey at the end of the season?! These coaches have a good track record of great defenses, so I hope they are able to continue that. Bottom line, Kramer has made tremendous progress with this program, and he has all his priorities in order. He is a class act all the way around, and is a great ambassador for Montana State.

P.S. - Montana State will not fully reach its potential until we improve the stadium, and I think that much was clear to all who came to Missoula this weekend. Peter Fields has done a good job getting the money problems in order, but I think he now needs to take an aggressive approach to improving our facilities and ensuring the future of Montana State football success. We have huge disadvantages up here in Montana, and if you want to entice the best recruits, you have to give them something they can't turn down. "Build it, and they will come..."

Buttealum · Post by **Buttealum** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 1:49 pm

ElGato, I agree 1000% with your posts! Bravo.

CARDIAC_CATS · Post by **CARDIAC_CATS** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 1:55 pm

I agree with El Gato 1000% plus an extra bonus 5% on top of that

Great post El Gato. Yes, the work ethic/mindset of this team/program has changed. NO DOUBT IN MY MIND AT ALL. Most Griz fans will (that follow football) will tell you the same thing. They have noticed a difference.

Eastcoastgriz · Post by **Eastcoastgriz** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 2:40 pm

Helcat72 wrote:I still say that the reason we can't recruit the depth that the friz have is because of money. There is no other difference between the two schools. There is also no other reason for Kramer not to handout partials to every highschool star who shows interest.

I can see why he doesn't make this public...he doesn't want to sound like a whiner, he doesn't want his players feel like they are playing with a big handicap, so he makes getting a scholarship an earned bonus rather than an entitlement for a great highschool career.

Are you stating the Griz give out more scholarships than the cats?? I was under the impression that the GRIZ and cats both fund the max. amount of scholarships. Only difference was GRIZ used partial's and cats didn't

jagur1 · Post by **jagur1** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 3:11 pm

Except for some reason this years team had no Gas in the tank. They felt flat Saturday. I don't understand why?

raincat · Post by **raincat** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 3:39 pm

Fascinating! I distinctly remember when Cliff first came to town his #1 priority was to return Bobcat football to the hardnosed, rawbone days of yesteryear aka "The Bobcat Way". He came from a pretty good platform having played for the Bobcats then coached the Cats and the defense for Jim Sweeney at Fresno State for a number of years. He accused the program of having gone soft, put on his cowboy boots and Levi's, amped up the weight room, intimidated the players, coaches and fans, drug out the old unies and designed his program to "out-tough" anyone who was willing to show up. He recruited tough guys (Jason Westbock, Mike Nye, J.C. Murray, Shawn Flores, Kevin Lundstrom, Ty O'Conner, Neal Smith, Devlan Geddes, Brent Ludwig to name a few), put some Montana guys in key coaching positions (Damberger, Salo) and went to work. He started winning ballgames, but never the right games. There's an old saying..."pain makes cowards of all of us" and when his back problems set in he lost his edge and became more of a manager type.
So then coach Kramer comes along and inherits all these "wimps" brought in by Cliff and company. I know at the end guys were coasting so it was time for Cliff to go. But I remember listening to a postgame interview while driving out of Boise after the Cats had lost to BSU. This Bronco running back who was still jacked up said "they had some real tough guys over there and we had to beat on them, but they still kept coming. They have to be tough, look where the live! You'd have to be tough to live up there !"
In my view it's not Hysell vs. Karmer. Cliff reestablised the foundation that allowed Coach Kramer to take it up a notch. We're all Bobcats here!