Split thread - Improvements... Griz fan perspective

elkmcc · Post by **elkmcc** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 3:53 pm

Hey Cat fans. I am new to posting on your board but I read it regularly. OK I admit it. I am a Griz fan but I can see that you are sincere in looking for ways to increase your game day experience and fan base. There are lots of things you can do to accomplish these things but first of all you have to get more interest in general in Bobcat football. Naturally the first place to look for new fans would be here in the State of Montana. There are a lot of football fans in our State, unfortunately for the Bobcats the majority call themselves Griz fans but in reality they are just sport fans looking for good entertainment. Thanks to Omega I was able to watch several Bobcat games this year and even though I am a huge Griz fan I really enjoyed watching the Bocats play football. Entertaining, great athletes, not to mention a very charismatic head coach. This is where I will attemp to make my point.

Drop the Griz dissing. It only serves to further alienate the sport fans from the State of Montana that think of themselves as Griz fans. You might be surprised how many Griz fans would be interested in following the Bobcats if they weren't constantly barraged with the anti-Griz sentiment that so many of you dish out on a regular basis. Just my 2 cents worth. I sincerely wish the best to all of you in bobcat land.

WYCAT · Post by **WYCAT** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 4:03 pm

elkmcc wrote:Hey Cat fans. I am new to posting on your board but I read it regularly. OK I admit it. I am a Griz fan but I can see that you are sincere in looking for ways to increase your game day experience and fan base. There are lots of things you can do to accomplish these things but first of all you have to get more interest in general in Bobcat football. Naturally the first place to look for new fans would be here in the State of Montana. There are a lot of football fans in our State, unfortunately for the Bobcats the majority call themselves Griz fans but in reality they are just sport fans looking for good entertainment. Thanks to Omega I was able to watch several Bobcat games this year and even though I am a huge Griz fan I really enjoyed watching the Bocats play football. Entertaining, great athletes, not to mention a very charismatic head coach. This is where I will attemp to make my point.

Drop the Griz dissing. It only serves to further alienate the sport fans from the State of Montana that think of themselves as Griz fans. You might be surprised how many Griz fans would be interested in following the Bobcats if they weren't constantly barraged with the anti-Griz sentiment that so many of you dish out on a regular basis. Just my 2 cents worth. I sincerely wish the best to all of you in bobcat land.

Wow, what a well thought out and written post by a griz fan. Welcome aboard bobcatnation - Bearbac, here is another guy you could take a few pointers from. Between him, Meat, Jag, Jah, etc. you should have a little class by 2010.

theblackgecko · Post by **theblackgecko** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 6:08 pm

elkmcc wrote: Drop the Griz dissing. It only serves to further alienate the sport fans from the State of Montana that think of themselves as Griz fans. You might be surprised how many Griz fans would be interested in following the Bobcats if they weren't constantly barraged with the anti-Griz sentiment that so many of you dish out on a regular basis. Just my 2 cents worth. I sincerely wish the best to all of you in bobcat land.

He has a point.

El_Gato · Post by **El_Gato** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 6:40 pm

Sounds great, elk. But in reality, it will probably NEVER happen.

The Griz are about to win their 3rd championship in the past 9 years and yet just LOOK at how many of their "fans" choose to come over here with their venom and spew their "good will" all over our site. I admit, I love to talk smack here & on egriz, but those that know me personally know that I greatly respect the football program that Don Read & Denny Washington built at UM. I'm a third-generation Cat & have been following the Blue & Gold CLOSELY since the mid-70's and I assure you, the rivalry has been heated and at times quite nasty EVERY step of the way...

Tell you what, elk, have the Griz let MSU win the next 16 football games & then you guys put up with how arrogant & annoying a SIGNIFICANT number of our fans become, THEN come & lecture us on how to "make nice" with your side. Personally, I don't think that if we did manage to "drop the dissing" it would mean a hill of beans toward making our football program or game-day experience any better, which is what this thread is about...

Rivalries like ours are NEVER going to be without the various ugliness that goes along with intense competition. It's always been that way in sports and it always will be and personally, I prefer it that way. I'm GLAD that Bobcat/Grizzly stirs so many emotions in so many people; I think it's great, cheap entertainment!

BelgradeBobcat · Post by **BelgradeBobcat** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 6:42 pm

elkmcc wrote: Drop the Griz dissing. It only serves to further alienate the sport fans from the State of Montana that think of themselves as Griz fans. You might be surprised how many Griz fans would be interested in following the Bobcats if they weren't constantly barraged with the anti-Griz sentiment that so many of you dish out on a regular basis. Just my 2 cents worth. I sincerely wish the best to all of you in bobcat land.

Of course Cat fans have never been alienated by griz fans.

I see this more as a two way street.

Post by **kmax** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 6:49 pm

I think some of you are missing elk's point here. He is not talking about the hardcore Griz fans that we see here or on egriz. He is referring to the majority of the population of Montana that consider themselves sports fans, but really have no reason to root for the Griz other than that is the team that they have seen play alot and hear about having winning seasons. These types of people just like watching football and/or going to a good event, and so would be prime candidates for winning a few more "butts in the seats." As much as I agree with elk that this is a prime market for gaining some new "fans" for the very reasons I mentioned that they could be interested in the Cats and the Griz I wonder how much they are actually turned off, or even aware of, the rivalry venom between devout fans? Seems to me that those types of fans will be won over more by exciting, winning teams than anything else.

BelgradeBobcat · Post by **BelgradeBobcat** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 7:01 pm

Consistent winning is the most important thing in building our gameday atmosphere which has improved by leaps and bounds with the three previous winning seasons. Winning at home has to become the assumed for outcome instead of the hoped for outcome.

El_Gato · Post by **El_Gato** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 7:13 pm

kmax wrote:...Seems to me that those types of fans will be won over more by exciting, winning teams than anything else.

PRECISELY!

And I, for one, was NOT missing his point. I'm just a little fed up with people telling me I CAN'T dislike AND respect the Griz program at the same time. Or that I can't give them crap and try to have some fun or get some entertainment out of the rivalry.

Perceptions also make a big difference. MOST people I know think of the Flathead as "Griz country", mainly due to our proximity & the Griz's football team; here are 2 examples of how "far off" perceptions can be:

1. Beginning in the late 90's, we started a local Cat/Griz golf tournament to A) have a good time with the rivalry, and B) raise some $$ for the 2 Athletic Departments. Our format was unique; we TEAMED 3 Bobcats & 3 Grizzlies on EACH team and they played TOGETHER for the trophy. I don't know how many times I heard people comment on how it was the ONLY time each year that they rooted for "the other team". We had a great time and sent about $5,000 to each AD for the 3 or 4 years it was held. About 3 years ago, however, the "partnership" fell apart (for OBVIOUS reasons), and each school began to hold their own, proprietary tournament. Since the "split", the Griz tournament has raised around $10,000 per year for their Athletic Department; the Bobcats, on the other hand, sent MSU ASA $18,000 the first year, $23,000 in 2003, and $25,000 this year! My point is the PERCEPTION that the Flathead is Griz Country is DEAD WRONG.

2. In order to determine a bet a few years ago, I and a few friends from BOTH sides of the rivalry were curious which school issued more of their license plates to the motoring public. I only inquired in the years 1999-2002, but in each of those years, according to the Treasurer's office, there were MORE MSU plates issued in Flathead county than UM plates, AGAIN debunking the myth that this is Griz Country.

All I'm trying to point out is that elk, who I'm sure is sincere in his/her thoughts, is a bit "misguided" when claiming that "unfortunately for the Bobcats the majority call themselves Griz fans" is pretty uninformed and a HUGE generalization, just because of the success of one thing, their football program. That may be the perception, but I really don't think it's reality...

Post by **SonomaCat** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 7:24 pm

I've enjoyed the posts on this thread, and I thank elkmcc for starting the topic, but I split it off so the original thread can stay on the track of brainstorming for gameday improvements.

elkmcc · Post by **elkmcc** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 10:21 pm

[quote]I think some of you are missing elk's point here. He is not talking about the hardcore Griz fans that we see here or on egriz. He is referring to the majority of the population of Montana that consider themselves sports fans, but really have no reason to root for the Griz other than that is the team that they have seen play alot and hear about having winning seasons. These types of people just like watching football and/or going to a good event, and so would be prime candidates for winning a few more "butts in the seats." As much as I agree with elk that this is a prime market for gaining some new "fans" for the very reasons I mentioned that they could be interested in the Cats and the Griz I wonder how much they are actually turned off, or even aware of, the rivalry venom between devout fans? Seems to me that those types of fans will be won over more by exciting, winning teams than anything else.[/quote

Yes. . There is a real interest in football in our State of Montana right now and I think there is an opportunity for the Bobcats to take advantage of it. It would seem apparant to me that one of main ojectives of this website would be to increase awareness of the Bobcat program and generate interest in the sports associated with the program. I can't speak for everyone else but I certainly find the incessant rant whether in fun or not as a big detraction from bobcatnation.com. I realize some Griz fans are guilty of the same type of disrespectful smak but you are in a position right now that it might benefit you to rise above that level.

BAC: With all due respect, as another suggestion for "increasing the game day experience" you might consider welcoming new people who come to your board and offer positive ideas and comments and compliments rather than patronizing them and severing the thread into portions that you deem cerebral or not.

Post by **SonomaCat** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 10:44 pm

elkmcc wrote: BAC: With all due respect, as another suggestion for "increasing the game day experience" you might consider welcoming new people who come to your board and offer positive ideas and comments and compliments rather than patronizing them and severing the thread into portions that you deem cerebral or not.

You misunderstood why I split the thread. The thread you posted on was being used to brainstorm ideas to forward to the MSU administration, and your post alone was a great contribution (not one that would necessarily make the list to MSU, as that's outside of the scope of what they can do, but a very valid post nonetheless).

However, your post sparked a conversation that was going in a much different direction than the original intent of the thread (you got El Gato riled up -- in a good way, in other words). The new conversation was interesting in and of itself, so I split the whole group of posts.

This way, we have the conversation that your post spawned intact (and, for the record, I agree with your original point). At the same time, anybody who looks upon the original thread for the first time will get the idea of the brainstorming and not instead assume that it is a thread about the subject matter of the perspectives of sports fans in the state.

I'm sorry you thought my post was patronizing or that you thought I was punishing you in any way -- it was quite the contrary. For that one thread, though, since I am hoping to summarize the results of it to forward to MSU, I just wanted to keep it on on a pretty narrow track (and avoid the post sprawl phenomenon so common to message boards). I could have cut it off after your post, but the natural break seemed to occur with your post, as that kept the new conversation topic whole and cogent.

Ugh! Looking back at how I worded my post, I now see exactly why you reacted the way you did. I was actually on my way out the door to catch a train as I posted it, and the poor wording reflects that. My apologies. I meant to stress that I wanted the two different conversations to both flow, but I left that part off in my rush.

94VegasCat · Post by **94VegasCat** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 11:05 pm

All I can say to all of this :

ftg ftg ftg ftg ftg ftg ftg ftg ftg ftg ftg ftg ftg ftg ftg ftg ftg

I didnt think so

Hell's Bells · Post by **Hell's Bells** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 11:18 pm

id hate to say this but elk does have a point - why should we make our program seem classless and crass by saying things like "****** the griz"??? honestly i would personally go to more cat games and get out of my shell in public about being a montana state fan if i didnt have to look at all the yahoos spewing hate that say they are cats fans....i feel the same way for all the arrogant griz fans tho 2 so it is a two way street here. Like i have stated in a lot of my poasts there is a difference between talking smack about msu football and being meanspirited - that is not called for

elkmcc · Post by **elkmcc** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 11:50 pm

Ugh! Looking back at how I worded my post, I now see exactly why you reacted the way you did. I was actually on my way out the door to catch a train as I posted it, and the poor wording reflects that. My apologies. I meant to stress that I wanted the two different conversations to both flow, but I left that part off in my rush.

I likened to assume that you weren't being condescending but one can't be to careful with cat fans, some of them are pretty sly. In all seriousness tho BAC I've been reading your moderations on this site for some time and it would be a slight on my part if I didn't commend you on the job you have done. ...Actually I kind of of like the "ftg' thing or as we like to say on this side of the divide "ftc" . I can't help but laugh whenever I hear it, either way it is said.

lifeloyalsigmsu · Post by **lifeloyalsigmsu** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 1:02 am

elkmcc wrote:
I think some of you are missing elk's point here. He is not talking about the hardcore Griz fans that we see here or on egriz. He is referring to the majority of the population of Montana that consider themselves sports fans, but really have no reason to root for the Griz other than that is the team that they have seen play alot and hear about having winning seasons. These types of people just like watching football and/or going to a good event, and so would be prime candidates for winning a few more "butts in the seats." As much as I agree with elk that this is a prime market for gaining some new "fans" for the very reasons I mentioned that they could be interested in the Cats and the Griz I wonder how much they are actually turned off, or even aware of, the rivalry venom between devout fans? Seems to me that those types of fans will be won over more by exciting, winning teams than anything else.[/quote

Yes. . There is a real interest in football in our State of Montana right now and I think there is an opportunity for the Bobcats to take advantage of it. It would seem apparant to me that one of main ojectives of this website would be to increase awareness of the Bobcat program and generate interest in the sports associated with the program. I can't speak for everyone else but I certainly find the incessant rant whether in fun or not as a big detraction from bobcatnation.com. I realize some Griz fans are guilty of the same type of disrespectful smak but you are in a position right now that it might benefit you to rise above that level.

BAC: With all due respect, as another suggestion for "increasing the game day experience" you might consider welcoming new people who come to your board and offer positive ideas and comments and compliments rather than patronizing them and severing the thread into portions that you deem cerebral or not.
I agree with your assertion that football is a real interest in the state of Montana; however, how can you claim that Bobcats can "take advantage of it right now", especially with the way the griz are playing right now? You need to understand that many fans who don't generally follow sports also represent a huge portion of people who weigh down the fickle bandwagon. In light of the aformentioned griz success, what makes you think they will favor the Cats over the griz?

Your suggestion is ideal and commendable but, nonetheless, just words.

I can't speak for everyone else but I certainly find the incessant rant whether in fun or not as a big detraction from bobcatnation.com. I realize some Griz fans are guilty of the same type of disrespectful smak but you are in a position right now that it might benefit you to rise above that level

Thanks for suggesting the "high road" teacher. Maybe your attempt at diplomacy should be suggested to some of your fellow fans on egriz.

El_Gato · Post by **El_Gato** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 8:31 am

Bay Area Cat wrote:...(you got El Gato riled up -- in a good way, in other words)...

To paraphrase Eddie Murphy from 48 Hours: "...I get riled up when the wind blows!"

BobcatBlood · Post by **BobcatBlood** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 11:30 am

I go back, again, to Field's words in his interview the other day, MSU is not UM and we need to focus on who we are. I posted after the Cat/Griz game that we had a wonderful time at Washington Griz stadium and were well treated by most of the fans. The people around us, by and large, had been season ticket holders for many, many years. They knew all the kids, where they were from, what they majored in. They were HUGE Griz fans in every way. But they were also human - they acknowledged that the Cats have good players and good people too.

I don't see how, in general conversations with people and strangers around the state, it hurts to be positive about the Cats without being negative about the Griz. Isn't this the biggest difference between Hauck and Kramer? I personally do not like Hauck for ONE reason - he is an ass when it comes to the Cats. One of the reasons that I like Kramer is that he is gracious to ALL opposing teams, the Griz included. He doesn't worry about what the Griz are saying or doing, he worries about us. Unless a Griz fan is in my face acting arrogant and condescending, I see no reason to Griz bash.

If that is the basic point of Elk, I agree with him completely, and like others extend it back to the Griz. I guarantee that they won't lose any fan support because the don't aggressively diss the Cats every time they get a chance.

Now, if we are on a fan board like this and part of the fun is bashing the other team, bash away. If a Cat fan is in a bar in Plentywood getting crap from a Griz, bash away.

There is a place for civility though.

Sportin' Life · Post by **Sportin' Life** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 11:31 am

I don't think that is the answer at all...I think the Cats (and the Griz) should nurture and encourage the rivalry for all it is worth. There are a few people that don't seem to understand that it all fundamentally should be good natured.....but that shouldn't ruin the fun for the rest of us. And the game being a big deal to boosters and alums won't be off-putting to casual fans...I think that is ridiculous. If anything the contrary is true. Grizzly atmosphere didn't get where it is by fans pretending to not be zealous.

Cat Grad · Post by **Cat Grad** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 1:24 pm

I am somewhat amused the direction this went; I for one look at the defference in philosophy, values, and interests between the two schools and the student who goes to each school and then... I think back to how much I enjoyed the farmers from Eastern Washington while they were in Bozo climbing all over our neat toys we had on display, the folks from Spokane who were so gracious and kind even when...personally, I'd like to see our schools split ala Auburn-Alabama, Georgia-Georgia Tech, something with some real venom and some actual clout behind the grads actions; unfortunately, we're talking Montana and at the time Denny is the only sugar daddy that supports any of the Big Sky schools up until Alex Spanos upped the ante to SAC...anyway, sure, we can have a better atmosphere during our games and we know the Sky Boxes are on the way...but I wouldn't trade the gameday experience in Bozo (make that gameweek because so many of us arrive on Wednesday and don't leave until Monday) and may not even sit in the stands all through the game. There, I've said what I wanted to--give us our beer and we will enhance the game atmosphere! I suppose that's one reason my agrarian roots would like to see the Dakotas and UNC aligned with us...

iaafan · Post by **iaafan** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:32 pm

Progress has been made in the past few years, but if it's to keep the momentum the local fans and general populace are going to have to kick it up a notch. A lot of folks are talking large scale improvements when maybe they should be using more of a grass roots effort, which is vaguely akin to what 'elk' is saying and a bit of spin off on Fields comments last week.

If MSU is to glean anything from UM it should be noticing how devoted the UM fans are to their own football scene from top to bottom. Personally I think it is because many of them have made a concious effort to be this way. Sure, if UM wasn't on top all the time the fan base would drop, but I think they'd still have a core group of 15,000.

I talked to an older gentleman yesterday and he told me about how he and his wife were going to be part of lining the streets from UM to the Msla airport with cars and signs as a send off for the team. Just one of the many, many things they do over there, but the genesis of it is a devotion that basically starts in the living room. I think MSU fans who claim the facility needs to be better first are just copping out.

The fans that are on this board need to encourage the fence-riding fans to get involved. I hear a lot of people talking a good game about being a 'Cat fan, which is a start, but they seldom get down to a game. These are the people you need to go after. A lot of them have a negative attitude that something is going to go wrong and I think they are afraid to invest their heart and money into it, so the die hards need to help them along.

Fans of MSU, particularly in the Bozeman area, need to step up their commitment by selling out games and showing some form of participation even it is complaining about the success of the team. This will virtually force the school to respond with improvements to the stadium and general area and/or getting the right people on the job to bring in a winner.

All those things on that wish list developed on another thread ring hollow unless there are people there, on site, demanding them. When we used to throw house parties the more people would show up, the more beer we'd buy. A response has to be made. Right now it's sort of like the mall in Havre. Nice idea, but.....