Playing Up a Division????

HelenaCat · Post by **HelenaCat** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 4:12 pm

Just saw on msubobcats.com that the Cats lost to Nebraska. Not surprising. But what amazed me was Mick's comment of "Thats what happens when you play up a division." I thought we played in the same division, Division 1, as Nebraska. This is not football and Nebraska is far from a powerhouse in basketball. I hate bashing on Mick, but that statement just frustrates me to no end and summarizes our current plight in men's BB all too well.

WYCAT · Post by **WYCAT** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 4:25 pm

Couldn't agree more HC. That positive thinking will take you a long way in life.

That kind of comment would be acceptable from Kramer after a game against the Nebraska football team but not in BB. When the coach not only thinks but tells the players they are not as good as the opponent the program is dead.

Post by **SonomaCat** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 8:03 pm

That comment was just depressing. Apparently Mick thinks he is coaching a Division II team. Too bad he's doing it at a Division I school.

Helcat72 · Post by **Helcat72** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 8:38 pm

Yea ...I think he's gotten so used to losing, especially on the road that he knows when it's gonna happen...and he seems to be knowing more and more lately!

BozoneCat · Post by **BozoneCat** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 10:14 pm

If this comment had been made after playing, say Duke (or North Carolina, to appease mslacat) - it still would not have been the right thing to say, but at least it would have been more appropriate. Nebraska is not only a bad basketball team in a power conference, they would be a bad team in most mid-major conferences. They are rated in the bottom 1/3 of the country. They suck. Unfortunately, our team sucks worse. Sadly, Mick's attitude sucks the worst.

94VegasCat · Post by **94VegasCat** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 12:32 am

Maybe Mick could coach Bozeman High. He already coaches most of their alumni. Why not step down a notch and coach the high school kids.

velochat · Post by **velochat** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 9:04 am

You're right, this kind of performance is unacceptable unless it's an aberation. We used to compete with and occasionally beat teams like Nebraska, even on the road. Other than PSU, the Big Sky looks pathetic at this point. That's disappointing, because the Big Sky was close to another level at one time.

iaafan · Post by **iaafan** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 9:12 am

I'm waiting for someone to remind us what a great guy Mick is and what a class program he runs and what high grad rates he has. Why he isn't mentioned in the same conversations as Coach K I have no idea.

And, oh, don't forget Mick led MSU to the 1996 Big Sky title and trip to the NCAA tourney and he's only been coaching there for 16-17 years now. It has to be some kind of record there. To put in that much time with so little success on the court is an incredible accomplishment.

Someone was predicting that MSU makes the Big Sky tourney this year. Wow, that was a bold one. To actually finish in the top 6 of 8 teams is going out on a limb. How can a team can go three straight years and miss the BS tourney? Hopefully they can make it, so MSU doesn't lose Mick. Only in the sad state of Big Sky basketball is that a possibility. I'm so anxious to see how it all turns out.

Post by **rtb** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 9:20 am

iaafan wrote:I'm waiting for someone to remind us what a great guy Mick is and what a class program he runs and what high grad rates he has. Why he isn't mentioned in the same conversations as Coach K I have no idea.

And, oh, don't forget Mick led MSU to the 1996 Big Sky title and trip to the NCAA tourney and he's only been coaching there for 16-17 years now. It has to be some kind of record there. To put in that much time with so little success on the court is an incredible accomplishment.

Someone was predicting that MSU makes the Big Sky tourney this year. Wow, that was a bold one. To actually finish in the top 6 of 8 teams is going out on a limb. How can a team can go three straight years and miss the BS tourney? Hopefully they can make it, so MSU doesn't lose Mick. Only in the sad state of Big Sky basketball is that a possibility. I'm so anxious to see how it all turns out.

BE CAREFUL, we have a lot of Mick's friends that hang out here. If you have an opinion different from theirs the get very upset and may even call you unloyal. I am tired of having to defend my opinion....MICK NEEDS TO GO. If you agree, great I am glad we are on the same page....if not, cool you have your own opinion and I am glad you can state it without me ripping you apart. Please for the sake of MSU basketball, we need new life in the program. Mick is turning our team into a joke.

Cat Grad · Post by **Cat Grad** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 11:42 am

It's time for new blood in Bozo--perhaps a national search for both the men and women's program? Anyway, I'm disappointed to say the least, discouraged at best. Maybe we'll get lucky and Weber will make the tournament again and have a first round upset. What's wrong with ISU? Seems like many years ago when we could go on the road and slap a few teams around.

CatfaninGA · Post by **CatfaninGA** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 2:56 pm

I'm pretty much sick of it also. Mick and all his surporters need to wake up and smell the cofee. Time for some new blood. MSU hoops is pretty much non existant and it has not been around for some years. Another long and disapointing season and probably missing the tournament again is in store for this program.

uascat2 · Post by **uascat2** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 3:14 pm

It appears that even the MODERATORS, well at least two out of three,
of this web site need to reread their own terms of usage. I believe they read something like this. personal attacks against other posters or Coaches and student-athletes of Montana State University will not be
tolerated, etc. etc.

or may be you need to define very clearly what constitutes a personal
attack

Post by **SonomaCat** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 3:22 pm

uascat2 wrote:It appears that even the MODERATORS, well at least two out of three,
of this web site need to reread their own terms of usage. I believe they read something like this. personal attacks against other posters or Coaches and student-athletes of Montana State University will not be
tolerated, etc. etc.

or may be you need to define very clearly what constitutes a personal
attack

I don't think being critical of things said by a coach rises even close to the level of "personal attacks." If I said something about his family, or the way he looked, or something completely unrelated to his job that was meant only to cause personal anguish, then that would be a different story.

We must be careful to differentiate between "criticism" and "personal attacks." If those terms melt into meaning one and the same, then we're pretty much left with nothing but discussions of cute little bunny rabbits and pretty flowers, which is fine, unless there are no cute little bunny rabbits or pretty flowers to talk about in a particular topic. I didn't happen to notice any cute little bunny rabbits to speak of in recent quotes coming from Mick and his expectations for the MSU basketball program.

WYCAT · Post by **WYCAT** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 3:43 pm

uascat2 wrote:It appears that even the MODERATORS, well at least two out of three,
of this web site need to reread their own terms of usage. I believe they read something like this. personal attacks against other posters or Coaches and student-athletes of Montana State University will not be
tolerated, etc. etc.

or may be you need to define very clearly what constitutes a personal
attack

Give me a break uascat2. What do you want us to discuss on this board other than the status of our team(s), and right now the status of our BB program is in the toilet. BAC is right, saying that is fact not personal attacks.

Post by **rtb** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:46 pm

uascat2 wrote:It appears that even the MODERATORS, well at least two out of three,
of this web site need to reread their own terms of usage. I believe they read something like this. personal attacks against other posters or Coaches and student-athletes of Montana State University will not be
tolerated, etc. etc.

or may be you need to define very clearly what constitutes a personal
attack

Again, the reason I said we all have the right to our own opinion. I have met Mick Durham only once in my life and he seems like a terrific person. This doesn't mean that I think he is still the right person to coach MSU's basketball team. This is not a personal attack, it is simply my opinion!!!

iaafan · Post by **iaafan** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 5:00 pm

I'd think it would be difficult to find anyone who doesn't agree that Mick Durham is as fine a man as any coach there is. But maybe someone can define "adequate coach." I'd like to see a list of coaches (w/10+ years of experience at one school) whose resume is worse than, or equal to, Mick's.

He's 30 wins over .500 for his career and is averaging less than 15 wins per season. He has two BSC reg. season titles, which is right on the flat average (one per eight seasons), but just one Big Sky tourney title, which is way below the flat average. He has one NIT win, which might just be his crowning acheivement --- on the court --- although it goes unnoticed in most circles. Few Big Sky coaches can claim a win in the NIT or NCAA tourneys.

uascat2 · Post by **uascat2** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 5:30 pm

You are so right rtb. and in My opinion the words, Mick must go and Mick
is turning our team into a joke are personal attacks. I also would offer another opinion. Maybe if Bay Area Cat and yourself would fly up here
from Bend Oregon and San Francisco and spend some quality time with
Coach Durham, Coach Brown, Coach Clark, Coach Carson and the current players maybe you would form a little different opinion
about the program. And maybe a little time with Peter Fields wouldn't
hurt either. Thank goodness the players are a lot more optomistic about
their abilities and the direction of the the program than you are.

And guess what, they do care what people think. And that's not an
opinion, it's a fact.

It's pretty darn easy to opinionize, criticize, or attack from afar when
you don't have any real knowledge about what is really going within
the basketball program.

Cat Pride · Post by **Cat Pride** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 5:39 pm

The fact that Mick has only won 2 BSC titles and one trip to the NCAAs says it all to me. He is a great guy but an average basketball coach whose teams constantly underachieve. Mick should have won 1-2 more titles and NCAA trips just in the Sprinkle/Holmstead years. And for the facilities and fan base that is present at MSU, his record in 14 years aint nothing to write home about!

Micks record averages out to be 16-13 over his career. blah....

Post by **SonomaCat** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 5:47 pm

uascat2 wrote:You are so right rtb. and in My opinion the words, Mick must go and Mick
is turning our team into a joke are personal attacks. I also would offer another opinion. Maybe if Bay Area Cat and yourself would fly up here
from Bend Oregon and San Francisco and spend some quality time with
Coach Durham, Coach Brown, Coach Clark, Coach Carson and the current players maybe you would form a little different opinion
about the program. And maybe a little time with Peter Fields wouldn't
hurt either. Thank goodness the players are a lot more optomistic about
their abilities and the direction of the the program than you are.

And guess what, they do care what people think. And that's not an
opinion, it's a fact.

It's pretty darn easy to opinionize, criticize, or attack from afar when
you don't have any real knowledge about what is really going within
the basketball program.

While I completely understand how someone close to Mick on a personal level would bristle at any criticism from uneducated chatroom goons (which is what we all are on some level), I don't really think that it is incumbent upon me to get up-close and personal with the coaches and players on the basketball team in order to form an opinion. Instead, I will continue to maintain a bit more objectivity and judge it exclusively by what I read and by the results I see. It's just a little easier for me, as well as most other MSU alums.

By the way, since you are spending so much time harping on me for my comments about Mick's comments, what is your opinion about what he said? Do you agree with it? Do you think what he said was appropriate and a sign of optimism for the program? Do you think his comments were indicative of someone who has a lot of faith in the player's abilities? Please do answer this question thoroughly -- I am curious as to your thoughts. I don't think I have been unfair at all so far -- I haven't even called for any coaching change. I'm just peeved about that (in my opinion as an MSU alum and Bobcat booster and fan) regretable comment.

BozoneCat · Post by **BozoneCat** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 5:56 pm

uascat2 wrote:You are so right rtb. and in My opinion the words, Mick must go and Mick
is turning our team into a joke are personal attacks. I also would offer another opinion. Maybe if Bay Area Cat and yourself would fly up here
from Bend Oregon and San Francisco and spend some quality time with
Coach Durham, Coach Brown, Coach Clark, Coach Carson and the current players maybe you would form a little different opinion
about the program. And maybe a little time with Peter Fields wouldn't
hurt either. Thank goodness the players are a lot more optomistic about
their abilities and the direction of the the program than you are.

And guess what, they do care what people think. And that's not an
opinion, it's a fact.

It's pretty darn easy to opinionize, criticize, or attack from afar when
you don't have any real knowledge about what is really going within
the basketball program.

I think that if you were able to be a bit more objective and not just blindly defend your buddies, you too would realize and admit that our basketball program is in the sh*tter. Not this team, this PROGRAM! I am glad that our team remains optimistic, they will need that attitude throughout what promises to be a very long season. The Bobcat basketball program has given us nothing to be positive about, though. Kramer certainly hasn't wowed us with 10-win seasons yet, but look at how optimistic and excited fans are about the football program - not because we are happy with where we are at, but because we genuinely like the way the program is heading and improving. You have to get it out of your head that any of this is personal - it isn't. I like Mick just fine, and I have no doubt that he loves Montana State and the Bobcats with all his heart. He has given his best to this school, and I think we all appreciate that. Unfortunately, his best is barely getting us to .500, which is unacceptable. Mick could show no greater display of how much he loves this school than to resign as coach and accept an administrative job with MSU Athletics.

Playing Up a Division????

Playing Up a Division????

It's going to be another long year