The Bobcat Nation

I was just wondering how poeple felt about the way MSU recruits for the different sports. I know I have a frustration when we don't bring in the number of mantana kids that I think we should, but when some our sports teams are full of kids out of the US it makes me wonder why.

I feel that sports such as tennis, golf, and ski are very borderline for MSU to support. These are not traditional MT sports but I do see the reason to have them and I do not think that we should get rid of them, also we can not because of title 9.

With that said if we are going to have such sports that recieve very little notice from outside spectators why don't we at least load the rosters with MT kids. This state has hs golf and tennis and a lot of kids grow up skiing so lets give MT kids the oppertunity to go to school on MT money. I would like to think that MT kids will be the people down the road to give back to the school and always support MSU.

Please don't get me wrong I am not totally against out of state kids I just think that MSU should start in the state first because that is where the money comes from.

I personally would give more support to ski, golf, and tennis if I knew the kids were from the state, who knows maybe I would know one of them some day that is from MT.

I want MSU to be as competitive as it can in all sports but if we were not as successful because we relied on in state kids or US kids, I would rather have that then a 100 Big Sky Championships from kids that don't even speak english.

Also what i forgot is I want to know how people feel about all the sports and what they wish MSU continued to do or did differently. If a lot of you out there feel the same way I do how can we get that message accross to coaches, and administration.

Each sport needs to recruit the best player they can. If a montana kid is the best, great, otherwise, go out of state to find them. The excuse that "i won't support a sport if it doesn't have X number of montana kids" is lame. i want the sport to have the best chance of success, whatever kids are involved. If the griz want to use bozangeles, that's fine with me.

I wouldn't change a thing, except to try and add rodeo as a scholarship sport.

Don't forget that most of the Montana kids who are talented in one sport or another get opportunities at other Montana universities. I think just about every kid coming out of high school who really wants to play a sport in college, and who has legitimate talent gets that opporturnity. Maybe not just at MSU or UM.

23,500 of my generation was forced to leave the state of Montana between 1980 and 1995 in order to find gainful employment; it's asinine to think our state universities should recruit and subsidize our watered down Montana High School Athletic Association member institution's products simply because they are "Montana kids Two of my boys were born in Bozo, two daughters and another son was born out of state. One of my Bozo born was offered scholarships to Princeton, South Carolina and Georgia Southern and because he knew of the crap I've received over the years due to the other "flagship" universities obnoxious nongrad fans and other assorted miscreants in various public settings, chose Georgia Southern simply for the opportunity to be a member of a team that would beat the holy hell out of them! In fact, he stole my sweatshirt that had "My two favorite teams are Montana State and whoever kicks the ****** out of the Grizzlies! FTG." Of course, he had no idea what FTG stood for as he was actually raised in the south. Damn, I can't believe I would spend so much time in response to such a ridiculous thought as to giving preferential recruiting to a kid that's not really exposed to athletic competition! I know, let's go back a few years and just have intramural sports so nobody has their feelings hurt and they all get to participate!

and everyone could get an MVP trophy, too!!!

So what it sounds like is that people are different from me and don't care that MT state money and donations from motana to provide scholorships and athletic oppertunities are used for kids from out of the US. As long as they are the best, and most will most likley leave the state and country to return to their own country never pay taxes in montana or give back to MSU. I am not saying be blind in recruiting and only recruit MT kids I am just saying that recruit good student, athletes, and people that will unederstand that they should give back to the school when they are done. I know for a fact that student athletes are the worst at all institutions about giveing money back, I would think that MT kids would have a bit more pride of their state school and be more inclined to give money back. I also like the idea that MSU could one day be known for supporting this states kids. I also think it would be a great recruiting tool for recruiting the states top athletes that MSU would and does give montana kids that bennefit of doubt that they will become great athletes.
I am suprised at the responses so far because all I hear is how we should recruit in state, especially football who has more california kids then mt kids. Maybe we should call it califontana state if this is the attitude from fans. UM prides itself on recruiting the in state kids and I hate to say this but look at what they have done, and maybe their is some thing to say about recruiting MT kids. As far as Cat Grad and wattered down montana kids, I think you are full of it and you are a proud parrent of what your son has done and I am sure it is great and good for him but maybe you have been gone to long to see that an athlete needs to have heart and work ethic to be great and that is what MT kids bring to the table. not to mention leadership and pride. I just would like to see MSU give more in state kids a chance. Maybe I am wrong and I will accept that my view is different from yours but the point I am trying to make is lets suppport the kids whos families have given MSU the money for the last 100 plus years. I fyou have some facts where other states or countries have donated the majority of the money or half or a quater i would like to know.

Duke,

First of all, you are listening to the "hype" regarding the # of Montana kids on the Cats vs the Griz. I ran the #'s last year and if I remember correctly, in football, they had 47 MT kids on their roster (some of which are only PARTIAL scholarships or walk-ons) and Kramer had 36 MT kids (NO PARTIALS, but some walk-ons). Given the overwhelming success of the Griz the past 15 years or so, I think that's outstanding that Kramer is able to have the #'s that close. Also, if you look at who actually PLAYED most of the games the past few seasons, you'll be amazed how close the 2 teams actually are when it comes to MT kids who really "matter" on the field. Now if you believe there are more than 83 MT kids who deserve to be playing football at the 1AA level, you haven't been watching much High School football lately...

Next, the way I view recruiting is this: kids essentially earn "points" based on their size, speed, talent, work-ethic, heart, brains, AND where they come from. We should ALWAYS take an in-state kid if he's "even" with an out-of-state kid. However, if you routinely give too much weight to a kid JUST BECAUSE he's from MT & take him over a more-talented out-of-stater, your program will suffer, the stands will empty, and the overall "health" of your university suffers, IMO. Look at dUMb; how much has their football success meant to them as a school the last 15+ years?

When I was at MSU in the early 80's, we had roughly 12,000 students and they had around 9,000. Seems to me the 2 of them are roughly equal now. Ask Geo. Dennison what the Griz football program means to the school; he may very well tell you it is the MOST important thing that school has right now. For anything other than journalism, pharmacy, forestry(lol), or law, why would anyone choose dUMb over MSU? But I'm pretty sure that not all of the griz students are in the 4 areas I mentioned. How many of them went/go to dUMb, at least in part, because of the notariety they've gotten from football?

In summary, IMO MSU should ALWAYS give points to any athlete they are recruiting from in-state. BUT, not at the expense of hurting a particular program because I believe that philosophy ultimately hurts the ENTIRE school. It's like everything else in life: Balance is good.

What is the number one institution in the U.S. for receiving federal grant money? What portion of our state and k-12 education budget is federal money? What is the number one state in the U.S. in federal per capita dispersion? How much does Montana receive in federal money for every dollar collected in federal gas tax? Who receives the most money in the federal CRP program? Who receives the largest crop subsidies in the U.S.? What percentage of MSU graduates are able to find employment in their field in Montana? Check your alumni directory sometime and perhaps you'll be surprised--although I doubt it--at the number of MSU graduates now living and supporting our school from a distance. Another thread has an ongoing and rather interesting discussion about Jack McGillis. Recruit the best athletes. Period. All this is not relevant toward the promotion of MSU athletics and actually belongs in a bar in Two Dot or Harlow or Richland...

John Wayne wrote:I was just wondering how poeple felt about the way MSU recruits for the different sports. I know I have a frustration when we don't bring in the number of mantana kids that I think we should, but when some our sports teams are full of kids out of the US it makes me wonder why.

I feel that sports such as tennis, golf, and ski are very borderline for MSU to support. These are not traditional MT sports but I do see the reason to have them and I do not think that we should get rid of them, also we can not because of title 9.

With that said if we are going to have such sports that recieve very little notice from outside spectators why don't we at least load the rosters with MT kids. This state has hs golf and tennis and a lot of kids grow up skiing so lets give MT kids the oppertunity to go to school on MT money. I would like to think that MT kids will be the people down the road to give back to the school and always support MSU.

Please don't get me wrong I am not totally against out of state kids I just think that MSU should start in the state first because that is where the money comes from.

I personally would give more support to ski, golf, and tennis if I knew the kids were from the state, who knows maybe I would know one of them some day that is from MT.

I want MSU to be as competitive as it can in all sports but if we were not as successful because we relied on in state kids or US kids, I would rather have that then a 100 Big Sky Championships from kids that don't even speak english.

You didn't happen to write a really provincial letter to the Chronicle complaining about how many of our tennis players "aren't even from this country" did you? I just shook my head sadly when I read that thing.

Foreign students are a very good thing -- they bring a lot to the table in terms of creating an environment that our Montana kids can learn from. Classes are a small part of the learning that goes on in a college setting -- learning about people, especially those who aren't exactly like oneself, is the biggest part of our those college years. In that regard, MSU needs more, not less, out-of-state and foreign students. Diversity is a good thing.

As to athletics specifically, this isn't a Junior High no scores being kept soccer league. The point of the athletic program is to attract the best student athletes from wherever we can find them. Montana kids have an obvious advantage out of the chute -- they are cheaper to recruit. If a Montana kid can't ride that advantage to winning a scholarship over someone from afar, then it's quite likely they aren't on the same level as the afar person, and they simply aren't good enough to compete at the D-1 level.

So, in general, MSU has two options -- it can be a backwoods hole in the wall university that has no use for people who don't look, think and talk like people from Montana, or it can aspire to be an national and internatioanlly significant institution of higher learning where people from all over the world can come to learn about their field of study as well as about the world from each other. I definitely know which vision I prefer.

By the way, not all of the donors to MSU athletics come from or live in Montana ... and not all Montana kids stay in Montana when they graduate. Yet many out of state and foreign athletes do stay in Montana and pay taxes when they graduate.

What's next? You want me cut my Sam's and Costco cards up and pay the local mom and pop price? Require me to buy a used vehicle in Montana when I could pop over to Dave Smith and get nearly the same price as many folks who've found they can fly to any city in the U.S. and pick a decent vehicle up from Carmax for less than they'd receive here? Competition is good But again, when we legislate anything to "level" the playing field, you wind up with an inferior, watered down product; sports should have taught everyone that. May we always see the best athlete on the field or court and get rid of a caste system we'd wind up with again.

so what you're saying is that the more money I give the better chance my kid has of getting a scholarship to msu? Why don't we make msu private? We don't owe montana kids a higher education. We owe montana kids the best K-12 education. Most grads are going to leave montana, it's an economic thing. A little ethnic and cultural diversity is just what lilly white montana kids need. when was the last time a person of a different race came and talked to your kids class? when my son was young and we were living in bozeman, he saw an african-american standing in line in front of us. He turned to me and said "daddy, is that michael jordan?" I was horrified, but that young man turned around and smiled at my son and shook his hand, what class. I will never forget that because that opened my eyes about how much my kids didn't know about different ethnicities. get over the looking out for montana kids first. the cal state bozeman comment is a bunch of crap, that's the griz talking. they are going to take whoever they can. How many montana kids in their latest recruiting class? yes, the same number as the cats.

This has opened my eyes to how people view this subject and here is what i have concluded
1) No one that replied still lives in the state, although you may have at one point and you are all very dear MSU Fans!! (thanks for that) I think that you are a bit persuaded to pull for that kid not from MT as I am for the MT kid
2) who replied that then msu enrolment was 12 and um 9 it is now something like 11 to 13 they for some reason have more students
3) when some of you make comments like lilly white mt kids need to be around other people from other places I take it as a knock on some of us that have a lot of pride of who we are and where we are from. I think that is what college is a about meeting new people but there are enough on campus from other countries to meet different backgrounds.
4)It may not be our duty to provide education past high school but I would rather give money to a in state kid vs. one from south america, canada, or LA
5)Thanks for the reply and it is good to know where people stand I have my opinion and you are entilited to yours, I would just like to see MSU support MT kids more then less and I think that state kids have a lot to bring to the table.

Also where do people think MT track, football, basketball, volleyball etc compare to the rest of the country as far as high school. I know that because of the annual games against north dakota in football we seem to be far better. who has the more populated state? and where do we fit with wyoming in basketball over the years? Maybe where arethe best states to recruit different sports?

Actually - I'm pretty sure that all of the above responders live in MT, except for BAC.

I don't know what part of my reply you didn't understand, but I'll repeat that any Montana kid who has enough talent to play at a higher level beyond HS, typically gets the opportunity to do so in-state. I invite you check out the rosters and list of scholarship athletes at all the other State institutions besides MSU and UM. I think you have to factor that in.

With all due respect, your comments relative to non-U.S. student athletes taking scholarship money from our in-State kids, are difficult to take any way other than xenophobia. In any case, if your contributions are withheld because some of your money might be spent on non-US student athletes, then you are no "John Wayne." John Wayne lived his life believing that people of different talents, temperaments and convictions made America great.

You should consider changing your ID to "David Duke."

That is all ---- .

John Wayne wrote:3) when some of you make comments like lilly white mt kids need to be around other people from other places I take it as a knock on some of us that have a lot of pride of who we are and where we are from.

Why is that a knock on people who have pride in who they are and where they are from? That's fine (except when "pride" equates to something Aryan)... but you can't really know "who you are" until you expose yourself to people who are different from you. Then, you begin to realize that you weren't exactly what you thought you were. You become exposed to other perspectives and ideas, and before long, a person has a whole new range of depth from which to speak. That's education.

And there is far too little diversity on MSU's campus.... I don't know how anyone can suggest otherwise with a straight face. There are more non-white people in my small wing of my work building than on the entire MSU campus. Same goes for people from other countries. I count myself as very fortunate for being exposed to the different cultures and ideas that these people bring to the table, and this is the kind of thing that MSU can use a lot more of.

I know I'll be accused of offerning sympathy for the devil on this one..., but my tack is a bit different.
I do consider it to be absolutely silly that Montana State has sports where the interest/quality of player in Montana is such that Montana State is forced to look outside the state for talent, whereas many Montana HS athletes are forced to go outside the state to compete in their sport, or compete at a lower level.
Case in point, wrestling. Both Montana schools lost their programs to Title XI. Although Title XI has done may good things, it has killed many men's programs in collegate athletics and killed a program that was consistently ranked in the top 25 for Montana. (I don't know how good the Montana State program was). Every year, the Metra is packed for the state wrestling meet. Yet, if a HS athlete wants to compete in wrestling in college, he is forced to either go to Western or Northern (limiting the academic opportunities) or else leave the state.
I wholeheartedly believe there needs to turnover within the athletic departments (at both universities) to more accurately reflect the sports that are popular within the state of Montana. Montana State needs to bring back scholarship rodeo far more than it needs to start offering men's ski scholarships (sorry ski bums and bunnies, but rodeo has a lot more to do with Montana State). What I would like to see is a comprehensive agreement between the two ADs, where there is discussion and agreement about which sports are important to the core of the athletic department (two football programs, two men's/women's basketball programs) and which sports should only be offered at one university. Oregon and Oregon State did that back in the 70s (although both have moved toward adding each other's sports) and as a result Oregon State has been able to keep men's soccer and baseball, and reduced its track program.

Cat Grad wrote:Who receives the largest crop subsidies in the U.S.?

The largest agricultural state in the nation, California, if I recall properly.

John Wayne wrote:Also where do people think MT track, football, basketball, volleyball etc compare to the rest of the country as far as high school. I know that because of the annual games against north dakota in football we seem to be far better. who has the more populated state? and where do we fit with wyoming in basketball over the years? Maybe where arethe best states to recruit different sports?

Hmmm. North Dakota and Wyoming. Yep, the two national powerhouses in high school sports (sarcasm intended, except for hockey).

Bleedinbluengold wrote:Actually - I'm pretty sure that all of the above responders live in MT, except for BAC.

I don't know what part of my reply you didn't understand, but I'll repeat that any Montana kid who has enough talent to play at a higher level beyond HS, typically gets the opportunity to do so in-state. I invite you check out the rosters and list of scholarship athletes at all the other State institutions besides MSU and UM. I think you have to factor that in.

With all due respect, your comments relative to non-U.S. student athletes taking scholarship money from our in-State kids, are difficult to take any way other than homophobia. In any case, if your contributions are withheld because some of your money might be spent on non-US student athletes, then you are no "John Wayne." John Wayne lived his life believing that people of different talents, temperaments and convictions made America great.

You should consider changing your ID to "David Duke."

That is all ---- .

Xenophobia?

theblackgecko wrote:

Cat Grad wrote:Who receives the largest crop subsidies in the U.S.?

The largest agricultural state in the nation, California, if I recall properly.

Most CA crops don't qualify for subsidies, I have been told by some locals. The fruit and vegatable market isn't subsidized to the extent of the grains and (is this still true?) tobacco industries.

Sorry, off-topic.