What killed Bobcat Basketball?

[ilovethecats]

While I agree that the quality of the teams has been lacking of late and that does have an impact on the fan turnout, I believe the lack of student participation has less to do with that and more to do with the electronic distractions available today. The Cats used to be the only game in town and there wasn't much else to do. Now they are still the only game in town but there are plenty of things to do. Personally I don't much care for the game stations or the chat rooms, but I do understand why they can be alluring. The Cats need to find a way to compete with these things and put a product on the floor that the students want to see. I don't believe that will be easy to do but I do thing it is doable. I look at the football program as an example. Get a competetive product on the court and fans will come out to watch.

this last line says it all. i agree that huge flatscreen tv's, ipads, video games, internet, etc. all has had an effect on sports as a whole. the nfl did a study a few years ago and attendance is down for nearly every team in the league partially due to these reasons. except of course for teams like the steelers, pats, packers, etc. and why? because these teams are really good.

last i checked, campuses like duke, kansas, kentucky, syracuse, and murray state have access to all these electronics too. the difference is people still flood into these arenas because there is a product worth watching in them! this has next to nothing to do with where the students are, or how far the stands are from the court. it has everything to do with the fact that this team doesn't win, and frankly they are hard to watch. when that changes more fans will come. when more fans come it will create a buzz. when there is a buzz more fans will come. with more fans it will become louder. when it gets louder our team actually will have a home court advantage. when we have an advantage we'll win more games. when we win more games we will have a bigger buzz surrounding this team. when we have a bigger buzz we'll have more fans in the stands. when we have many more fans.....we might have to look to change things up in the brick to accomodate them all. but all of this is moot until the team holds up their end of the bargain. just like the football team needed to do 5+ years ago.

[BozCatFan]

One of my best friends used to be the head marketing guru for the ice dogs. He is still in town and has tried for years to even volunteer to help market msu basketball but they have told him to take a hike. Before the ice garden closed down, they had aggressive, creative, and edgy marketing that MSU could use right now bad.

It is worth noting that the Missoulian recently had an article about MSU versus UM in ticket revenue for 2010-11 year. MSU generated about $1.6M while UM generated 5.2M. Sure, football is bigger in Missoula....but they also do pretty well for basketball. As a taxpayer, alumni, Bozeman native am embarrassed by what has happened to the Cats basketball program. That is proof that MSU needs to do something drastic now.

1. Winning helps, but it isn't everything. The off court entertainment is lousy. The team's performance is the only barometer whether fans have fun or not. This isn't good. A good "event" will draw fans regardless of winning and losing. If you don't believe this concept, how do you explain the Chicago Bulls sucking between Jordan and Rose yet they always had near sellout crowds? Tons of sports teams still have good crowds even though they don't always win.

2. When i was in college in the 80's the Big Sky Conference had more rivalry. Nevada, Boise State, Idaho. They also played games against Gonzaga. This is a much better natural draw for fans than the schedule now. I don't care what it takes, whoever does the scheduling needs to get this fixed. Particularly the pre-conference schedule. We need to play big programs. I'd rather lose and play a high profile team than win big against MSU Billings.

3. Good marketing to get fans there (in addition to ensuring they have a good time) is really important. MSU Athletics seems to care only about Football, which is too bad. By basically ignoring MSU hoops by not putting their best efforts into marketing and promoting it, they are costing themselves a significant amount of money. Do the math...there are way too many empty seats that could bring in $10 each per game.

I'm not really an expert or have solutions, but know there is a ton of potential if Fields and company would actually care. Right now it is really obviously they don't. Until that changes, we are going to be stuck with mediocre marketing, scheduling, promotion, game entertainment, and arguably coaching.

[wbtfg]

I disagree to some extent. IMO, a team can have all the marketing and promotion gimmicks in the world, but if you aren't winning the folks of bozeman aren't going to show up. Also, bozeman ain't chicago.

That said, I think it would be interesting to hear some of the marketing/promotion ideas you (and others) have, then we could pass the list on to MSU.

[WeedKillinCat]

I agree about the rivalries with Idaho Nevada etc. I remember when they would come to town the crowd was almost as big as Cat/griz. My wife used to watch the griz in Missoula and when Idaho came to town, they would roll potatoes onto the floor. Right now no other conference team outside of the griz really brings any excitement...maybe Weber...

[ilovethecats]

I disagree to some extent. IMO, a team can have all the marketing and promotion gimmicks in the world, but if you aren't winning the folks of bozeman aren't going to show up. Also, bozeman ain't chicago.

That said, I think it would be interesting to hear some of the marketing/promotion ideas you (and others) have, then we could pass the list on to MSU.

i disagree as well. winning is everything. and a couple other things to point out. first, chicago wasn't selling out all those years after jordan. they had respectable crowds considering their records....but far from sellouts.

next, comparing college to nba just doesn't fly because in the nba you are adding 1-2 players out of college every year. and the bad teams like the bulls some of those years were getting lottery picks that always create a buzz. for instance, after lebron left cleveland, everyone knew they would be terrible. but then they add kyrie irving who is supposed to be a stud and attendance rose big time. still no sellouts but certainly increasing. i'm a timberwolves fan and saw the same thing. we lost garnett and attendance plummeted. but over the years we have added kevin love, ricky rubio, michael beasley, and not derrick williams and while our record isn't amazing...we are near sellout every night.

which brings us back to the cats. winning will always be the number one priority. but in the meantime, getting exciting players, perhaps a top recruit, or maybe a great in-state player. perhaps playing a brand of basketball that is fast paced and exciting would help too. i'm not suggesting a coach must play up-tempo to win games and gain fans. i'm merely suggesting that doing ONE of these things might help...and huse seems to be doing none of them. we don't win. strike one. we don't bring in recruits that fans can get excited about like our rivals to the west. strike two. and we don't play a brand of basketball that allows the players we have to use their athleticism. it's boring. strike three.

the difference is that if you're winning a lot.....no one cares what kind of players you have or what kind of offense you run....

[BozCatFan]

My point is not that winning does not matter because it does. Its a magic bullet to a large extent, but since we have not had a sustainable program that finishes near the top of the conference every year MSU needs to look at something other than winning to rely on to draw fans.

Sure, Bozeman isn't Chicago...but that was one example of a team, pro or otherwise, that can draw a decent crowd even with a not so good team. Drawing 1,500 fans average for a MBB game in Bozeman when there isn't any major competition is absolutely embarrassing and pathetic.

The bottom line, IMO, is since they can't seem to win is to focus on making games an event. I am a basketball fan but my wife isn't. She won't go because it isn't fun for her because there isn't anything else going on. When she doesn't go I don't go. Neither do our four kids. I have several friends in that same situation. If they focused on making it an event and fun in everything they can control (timeouts, pregame, halftime, music, mascot, etc...) then my wife would be way more likely to go...and buy season tickets, and buy food, etc...

Long term, this is a serious problem. MSU isn't drawing kids to the game and they are the ones buying season tickets in the next 15 to 50 years. I grew up watching cat games with my family so I was hooked young. It will be far more difficult to get these kids to get involved when they are older since we didn't get them as kids.

Guys, it isn't rocket science. If I had the marketing solutions on how to make that happen I would be posting them here. I'm just pointing out that there is more to attendance than winning, a lot more.

[ilovethecats]

My point is not that winning does not matter because it does. Its a magic bullet to a large extent, but since we have not had a sustainable program that finishes near the top of the conference every year MSU needs to look at something other than winning to rely on to draw fans.

Sure, Bozeman isn't Chicago...but that was one example of a team, pro or otherwise, that can draw a decent crowd even with a not so good team. Drawing 1,500 fans average for a MBB game in Bozeman when there isn't any major competition is absolutely embarrassing and pathetic.

The bottom line, IMO, is since they can't seem to win is to focus on making games an event. I am a basketball fan but my wife isn't. She won't go because it isn't fun for her because there isn't anything else going on. When she doesn't go I don't go. Neither do our four kids. I have several friends in that same situation. If they focused on making it an event and fun in everything they can control (timeouts, pregame, halftime, music, mascot, etc...) then my wife would be way more likely to go...and buy season tickets, and buy food, etc...

Long term, this is a serious problem. MSU isn't drawing kids to the game and they are the ones buying season tickets in the next 15 to 50 years. I grew up watching cat games with my family so I was hooked young. It will be far more difficult to get these kids to get involved when they are older since we didn't get them as kids.

Guys, it isn't rocket science. If I had the marketing solutions on how to make that happen I would be posting them here. I'm just pointing out that there is more to attendance than winning, a lot more.

i agree with you in a lot of ways. but we've never had a product at a basketball game that went much farther than the game itself. i don't know how old you are, but I too grew up watching cat basketball. and they didn't do hardly anything during timeouts and stuff. you said you became hooked on hoops at a young age. what was it? the blindfolded searching for a loaf of bread? kids having a relay race putting on huge shoes and shorts and trying to make a basket? the wheat montana blimp dropping coupons? it's not like 15-20 years ago the basketball games were a huge event that you simply had to go to because it was so dang entertaining. we went because we love our cats and they actually played pretty good basketball.

i agree that every school and pro team in the country can look to do more to make games more than just a game. but i maintain this is the least of the cats worries. we don't do things like this that much worse than other schools. and frankly, if we were 21-4 right now instead of 11-14....do you really think peoples biggest worries would be our marketing? no doubt people would complain because people will complain about everything. but right now the only thing we need to figure out is how to win more games. if that means getting a new coach than so be it. but nothing else makes an ounce of difference if your team can't compete.

[BozCatFan]

I grew up in the late 80's and it was an exciting time for the Cats. I don't recall much about the entertainment, but in grade school I can tell you that I would not have been drawn because of the game itself. It was just fun, fairly crowded, the mascot was funny, and we got cotton candy.

Right now it isn't fun. They are lousy in all facets.

I agree with you we need to start with getting a new coach and some wins. The icing on the cake would be taking the rest of the event up a few notches.

What got me on this kick was going to a Utes game over Christmas. It was a blast. They didn't play well but there was stuff going on all over the place and it was a great way to spend an evening. The game was presented professionally and what I mean by that was the transitions into timeouts was smooth, off went the team and something else started in section whatever or on the court with the mascot, a contest of some sort, or cheer. There were plenty of things to entertain those not really there for the game. The concourse had kids activities with the football, volleyball players. Balloon makers, bouncer, face paint, little cheap Utes souvenirs, etc... It was just not showing up to watch a game and leave.

[ameriCATS]

goign back to what John K said on the first page, I would agree that the lack of a marque/ face of the program player or players has had a huge impact on the program and the fan support. Even someone with some personallity, i think it was Plummer?? (someone help me out I was in middle school) but that guy was so cool to watch and he really played it up to the crowd, jacked guy with a big fro, he was me and my friends favorite player. When's the last time we have had anyone with that type of presence able to sell the program?

and just to vent... i was back in bozeman over the holiday's and went to the game against eastern, that was the most unexciting, unentertaining basketball. Its time for Huse to go. I don't know what it will take to change the basketball culture in bozeman but it would be nice to get back to consistant relevancy in the conference and seriously contending for a chance to make it into the NCAA's...

[trojancat]

15 years ago you could go to Manhattan and watch a rivalry game against three forks or Manhattan christian and there wouldn't be an open seat or place to stand during the jv game. Now you have 100 or more empty seats during the varsity game. The bozeman hawks have put a great product on the floor for years and have very sparse crowds at times, especially the student section. Winning helps, but I think it is more of a change in society and what entertainment they choose to pay for (video games, social media, netflix, etc.)

[John K]

15 years ago you could go to Manhattan and watch a rivalry game against three forks or Manhattan christian and there wouldn't be an open seat or place to stand during the jv game. Now you have 100 or more empty seats during the varsity game. The bozeman hawks have put a great product on the floor for years and have very sparse crowds at times, especially the student section. Winning helps, but I think it is more of a change in society and what entertainment they choose to pay for (video games, social media, netflix, etc.)

But why then has football attendance more than doubled in the past 10 years? Shouldn't those same societal changes affect football attendance in the same manner?

[trojancat]

15 years ago you could go to Manhattan and watch a rivalry game against three forks or Manhattan christian and there wouldn't be an open seat or place to stand during the jv game. Now you have 100 or more empty seats during the varsity game. The bozeman hawks have put a great product on the floor for years and have very sparse crowds at times, especially the student section. Winning helps, but I think it is more of a change in society and what entertainment they choose to pay for (video games, social media, netflix, etc.)

But why then has football attendance more than doubled in the past 10 years? Shouldn't those same societal changes affect football attendance in the same manner?

That I don't know, but it could be due that essentially you have a home game an average of once every two weeks.

[gtapp]

15 years ago you could go to Manhattan and watch a rivalry game against three forks or Manhattan christian and there wouldn't be an open seat or place to stand during the jv game. Now you have 100 or more empty seats during the varsity game. The bozeman hawks have put a great product on the floor for years and have very sparse crowds at times, especially the student section. Winning helps, but I think it is more of a change in society and what entertainment they choose to pay for (video games, social media, netflix, etc.)

But why then has football attendance more than doubled in the past 10 years? Shouldn't those same societal changes affect football attendance in the same manner?

Big difference between nice fall afternoons and cold winter nights.

[John K]

15 years ago you could go to Manhattan and watch a rivalry game against three forks or Manhattan christian and there wouldn't be an open seat or place to stand during the jv game. Now you have 100 or more empty seats during the varsity game. The bozeman hawks have put a great product on the floor for years and have very sparse crowds at times, especially the student section. Winning helps, but I think it is more of a change in society and what entertainment they choose to pay for (video games, social media, netflix, etc.)

But why then has football attendance more than doubled in the past 10 years? Shouldn't those same societal changes affect football attendance in the same manner?

Big difference between nice fall afternoons and cold winter nights.

Not all of our home football games are played in warm, sunny weather. The attendance is much higher than it used to be, even for cold weather games. My point is that if you build a winning program, and create some excitement around the game day (or night) event, you can easily overcome any of these societal changes.

[ilovethecats]

Not all of our home football games are played in warm, sunny weather. The attendance is much higher than it used to be, even for cold weather games. My point is that if you build a winning program, and create some excitement around the game day (or night) event, you can easily overcome any of these societal changes.

and that's all it is. people try to make this issue way more complicated than it really is. if we had a team playing ball like murray state right now.....fans would battle blizzards and sub-zero temps to get into the brick. winning is everything....

[John K]

Not all of our home football games are played in warm, sunny weather. The attendance is much higher than it used to be, even for cold weather games. My point is that if you build a winning program, and create some excitement around the game day (or night) event, you can easily overcome any of these societal changes.

and that's all it is. people try to make this issue way more complicated than it really is. if we had a team playing ball like murray state right now.....fans would battle blizzards and sub-zero temps to get into the brick. winning is everything....

I would love to get to the level of a Murray State someday, but let's set more reasonable goals for now, i.e. consistently being among the top 2-3 teams in the conference. That means winning at least one game in the tourney and getting to the semi-finals (at a minimum) most years, and maybe actually winning the BSC title once every few years. It also means competing more evenly with UM, both in terms of head to head competition, as well as the BSC standings. Even that would be a major improvement over what we've experienced for the past 12-15 years. If we could reach that level and maintain it for awhile, then we can talk about becoming the next Murray State or Butler. In the short term future though, let's just try to be competitive with UM and Weber in the BSC.

[GRZSLAYER]

Not all of our home football games are played in warm, sunny weather. The attendance is much higher than it used to be, even for cold weather games. My point is that if you build a winning program, and create some excitement around the game day (or night) event, you can easily overcome any of these societal changes.

and that's all it is. people try to make this issue way more complicated than it really is. if we had a team playing ball like murray state right now.....fans would battle blizzards and sub-zero temps to get into the brick. winning is everything....

Not all of our home football games are played in warm, sunny weather. The attendance is much higher than it used to be, even for cold weather games. My point is that if you build a winning program, and create some excitement around the game day (or night) event, you can easily overcome any of these societal changes.

and that's all it is. people try to make this issue way more complicated than it really is. if we had a team playing ball like murray state right now.....fans would battle blizzards and sub-zero temps to get into the brick. winning is everything....

I would love to get to the level of a Murray State someday, but let's set more reasonable goals for now, i.e. consistently being among the top 2-3 teams in the conference. That means winning at least one game in the tourney and getting to the semi-finals (at a minimum) most years, and maybe actually winning the BSC title once every few years. It also means competing more evenly with UM, both in terms of head to head competition, as well as the BSC standings. Even that would be a major improvement over what we've experienced for the past 12-15 years. If we could reach that level and maintain it for awhile, then we can talk about becoming the next Murray State or Butler. In the short term future though, let's just try to be competitive with UM and Weber in the BSC.

Both of you guys are right. I am embarassed to say I haven't been to a B-Ball game in two years and I live in bozeman. Why, because I just can't get very excited about it. I am a MSU supporter through and through with season tickets to the Football games. With the state of the program right now the only option I see is completely gutting the program. Anyone associated with coaching the Mens Basketball team should be gone and a fresh start should be made. Six years is four years longer than most coaches get anymore. As far as winning goes right now sadly that is everything. The program sucks so bad for so long people won't even begin to pay attention again until they can put a couple back to back winning seasons together which right now looks near impossible. Once a program has re-established itself as a winner again people will start to get behind it again. While there are many people out there that are die hard MSU supporters they can even see the writing on the wall and back off the support after two decades of losing. Sadly right now it is almost more embarassing to back into the tournament at 6 and 10 than not even getting in. I will sure cheer for them in the playoffs anyway, but it is just a hard time right now to watch the mens program continue to slide. I would be happy in the near future just to see them fight for the top three spots in the Big Sky, let alone become a Butler. That almost makes me laugh thinking about it. But wouldn't it be great!!

[ilovethecats]

I would love to get to the level of a Murray State someday, but let's set more reasonable goals for now, i.e. consistently being among the top 2-3 teams in the conference. That means winning at least one game in the tourney and getting to the semi-finals (at a minimum) most years, and maybe actually winning the BSC title once every few years. It also means competing more evenly with UM, both in terms of head to head competition, as well as the BSC standings. Even that would be a major improvement over what we've experienced for the past 12-15 years. If we could reach that level and maintain it for awhile, then we can talk about becoming the next Murray State or Butler. In the short term future though, let's just try to be competitive with UM and Weber in the BSC.

i agree john. i was merely addressin the notion that there are other factors in play in determining why hoops is dying here. so i used an extreme example. usually it's gonzaga that we bring up in this discussion but murray state is taking the nation by storm. and they are really good. i'm not suggesting that my standards are so high that i need our team to play like that...although that would be sweet!

actually, my expectations are right in line with yours. we need to be competitive with weber and especially the griz. if anything, you'd think it'd be easier for the hops program because they don't have the expectation that the football team does. we want the football team to at least be in position to compete for a national championship. that's not real realistic for hoops. here, we'd be happy winning the conference tourney and representing in the dance. if we win it's huge....and if we lose we were supposed to.

i just cannot accept the fact that the weber and especially the griz are so much better than us in hoops right now. there is just no reason for it.

[John K]

I would love to get to the level of a Murray State someday, but let's set more reasonable goals for now, i.e. consistently being among the top 2-3 teams in the conference. That means winning at least one game in the tourney and getting to the semi-finals (at a minimum) most years, and maybe actually winning the BSC title once every few years. It also means competing more evenly with UM, both in terms of head to head competition, as well as the BSC standings. Even that would be a major improvement over what we've experienced for the past 12-15 years. If we could reach that level and maintain it for awhile, then we can talk about becoming the next Murray State or Butler. In the short term future though, let's just try to be competitive with UM and Weber in the BSC.

i agree john. i was merely addressin the notion that there are other factors in play in determining why hoops is dying here. so i used an extreme example. usually it's gonzaga that we bring up in this discussion but murray state is taking the nation by storm. and they are really good. i'm not suggesting that my standards are so high that i need our team to play like that...although that would be sweet!

actually, my expectations are right in line with yours. we need to be competitive with weber and especially the griz. if anything, you'd think it'd be easier for the hops program because they don't have the expectation that the football team does. we want the football team to at least be in position to compete for a national championship. that's not real realistic for hoops. here, we'd be happy winning the conference tourney and representing in the dance. if we win it's huge....and if we lose we were supposed to.

i just cannot accept the fact that the weber and especially the griz are so much better than us in hoops right now. there is just no reason for it.

Agreed....we should consistently finish in the top 3 in the BSC during the regular season. We should make the tourney semi-finals almost every year, get into the championship game on a fairly regular basis, and win the title and go to the Big Dance every few years. I don't believe those are unreasonable expectations.

[ilovethecats]

Agreed....we should consistently finish in the top 3 in the BSC during the regular season. We should make the tourney semi-finals almost every year, get into the championship game on a fairly regular basis, and win the title and go to the Big Dance every few years. I don't believe those are unreasonable expectations.

not unreasonable at all in my opinion. and we haven't even been close. in the last THIRTY years we've won the conference exactly twice, the latest being in '96. we have made 2 championship games since then but lost them both, the most recent being to psu a few years ago. in this same amount of time, um has won the conference 7 times and lost in the championship in another. four of these have come since the last time the cats won it all.

and weber....who considers itself a basketball school has been to the dance three times since the cats have. it's funny because um's dominance in football overshadows their hoops teams that are always very good. even now they still are struggling to get the fan support their team deserves, but it seems to be getting better and better each week. but it would be so easy for them to sit back and claim that they are a "football" school and not care what their hoops program does. instead, their basketball squad has quitely been very good, and very consistent, and represent very well. i mean hell....they have been to the dance four times in the last ten years.

i compare us to um not just because they are our rivals, but because we are in the same state and it's easier to compare. if another schol like psu or nau was dominating, there would be different factors involved. but we are from the same state and our towns are similar. we recruit the same areas and deal with the same things when playing on the road. in both cases our school are really the only gigs in town when it comes to basketball....so one would think that recruiting to missoula would be very similar to recruiting to bozeman. however, for whatever reason, um has continued to outplay us head to head, out-recruit us, and overall are a much better program. no one like to say it but they are probably the best "basketball school" in the conference as well.