MSU vs. UM and the state of MSU athletics

[Silenoz]

Historically and overall we have a better athletics program than UM. That's the bottom line. They have a lot of work to do to catch us. Presently, I think we have a better football team coming back next year, better men's and women's hoops coming back, too.

I disagree that UM smacked us around from start to finish in football. The game was a dead heat until the long pass. Poor field postion got the best of us, if anything. They quieted us immediately on an underthrown pass. Things were just going UM's way that day. Had they come out and taken a 28-0 lead into the locker room, I'd be singing a different tune.

[Silenoz]

I try to avoid BCN because everything with a Griz poster descends into smack, but the thread on eGriz piqued my curiosity, and that post has really piqued it

[Hawks86]

I try to avoid BCN because everything with a Griz poster descends into smack, but the thread on eGriz piqued my curiosity, and that post has really piqued it

I'm surprised it took that long to get posted over there.

[ilovethecats]

I disagree that UM smacked us around from start to finish in football. The game was a dead heat until the long pass. Poor field postion got the best of us, if anything. They quieted us immediately on an underthrown pass. Things were just going UM's way that day. Had they come out and taken a 28-0 lead into the locker room, I'd be singing a different tune.

i don't know man. if we went into wa-griz this year and left with a 36-10 win....and GIW or another griz fan came here telling us it was closer than the final score indicated....they'd be run off the board!

like i said, we can agree to disagree there.

[Silenoz]

I try to avoid BCN because everything with a Griz poster descends into smack, but the thread on eGriz piqued my curiosity, and that post has really piqued it

I'm surprised it took that long to get posted over there.

I'm more surprised that it wasn't Bear_Axed that did it

[Silenoz]

I disagree that UM smacked us around from start to finish in football. The game was a dead heat until the long pass. Poor field postion got the best of us, if anything. They quieted us immediately on an underthrown pass. Things were just going UM's way that day. Had they come out and taken a 28-0 lead into the locker room, I'd be singing a different tune.

i don't know man. if we went into wa-griz this year and left with a 36-10 win....and GIW or another griz fan came here telling us it was closer than the final score indicated....they'd be run off the board!

like i said, we can agree to disagree there.

If that happened we would never hear the end of it. Ever.

[BLACKnBLUEnGOLD]

Historically and overall we have a better athletics program than UM. That's the bottom line. They have a lot of work to do to catch us. Presently, I think we have a better football team coming back next year, better men's and women's hoops coming back, too.

I disagree that UM smacked us around from start to finish in football. The game was a dead heat until the long pass. Poor field postion got the best of us, if anything. They quieted us immediately on an underthrown pass. Things were just going UM's way that day. Had they come out and taken a 28-0 lead into the locker room, I'd be singing a different tune.

Denarius > Griz. I will entertain no argument on that point. The Lady Cats only lose one player to graduation. Sure, that one player is Katie Bussey, but Ashley Albert will be a fine go-to scoring option. She can score from anywhere, just like Bussey can. Jackie Elliot will be ready for a bigger role, too. She's very talented. The Lady Cats will be fine.

MBB, I sort of agree with your shock about. Even though Selvig graduates, they'll still have Cherry, and even with Selvig and Cherry both sitting, the Bobcats and Griz were about evenly matched on the 'Cats home court. Griz dominance over the Cats in men's basketball isn't going anywhere, certainly not so soon.

[grizatwork]

Historically and overall we have a better athletics program than UM. That's the bottom line. They have a lot of work to do to catch us. Presently, I think we have a better football team coming back next year, better men's and women's hoops coming back, too.

I disagree that UM smacked us around from start to finish in football. The game was a dead heat until the long pass. Poor field postion got the best of us, if anything. They quieted us immediately on an underthrown pass. Things were just going UM's way that day. Had they come out and taken a 28-0 lead into the locker room, I'd be singing a different tune.

I think for the most part of the game, the football game was pretty close. Field position made the most difference. However, I would like to know why you think that hisorically and overall you have a better athletic program than UM?

[[cat_bracket]]

Historically and overall we have a better athletics program than UM. That's the bottom line. They have a lot of work to do to catch us. Presently, I think we have a better football team coming back next year, better men's and women's hoops coming back, too.

I disagree that UM smacked us around from start to finish in football. The game was a dead heat until the long pass. Poor field postion got the best of us, if anything. They quieted us immediately on an underthrown pass. Things were just going UM's way that day. Had they come out and taken a 28-0 lead into the locker room, I'd be singing a different tune.

I think for the most part of the game, the football game was pretty close. Field position made the most difference. However, I would like to know why you think that hisorically and overall you have a better athletic program than UM?

Thank you regarding the football game I was beginning to wonder if I just imagined that, so thanks. UM blew us out late, but I'd rather hang with a team for a half or so (same as NDSU last year), than get blown out early and score a few TDs late against their backups to make it look close.

I say we're better historically and overall, because we've been winning championships (see TomCat's sig line list) for a long, long time. I don't know what UM's done exactly, but I don't think it's anywhere near that and you have to admit that list is impressive. I also like that it includes three sports (skiing, rifle, rodeo) germane to Montana. If UM's is bigger and better than that, then I'll stand down.

[[cat_bracket]]

I disagree that UM smacked us around from start to finish in football. The game was a dead heat until the long pass. Poor field postion got the best of us, if anything. They quieted us immediately on an underthrown pass. Things were just going UM's way that day. Had they come out and taken a 28-0 lead into the locker room, I'd be singing a different tune.

i don't know man. if we went into wa-griz this year and left with a 36-10 win....and GIW or another griz fan came here telling us it was closer than the final score indicated....they'd be run off the board!

like i said, we can agree to disagree there.

I'm not posting on egriz and if I did I would totally expect to get laughed out of the place and not be listened to. That's why I'm posting here in a conversation with a fellow Cat fan. If WashingtoninGriz were to post something similar on egriz, I won't be over there to argue with him. So I'm not sure what you're getting at. There's a griz poster grizatwork, who saw the game the same way I did. I think most objective observers do. Your take on the game has me stumped.

[ilovethecats]

I'm not posting on egriz and if I did I would totally expect to get laughed out of the place and not be listened to. That's why I'm posting here in a conversation with a fellow Cat fan. If WashingtoninGriz were to post something similar on egriz, I won't be over there to argue with him. So I'm not sure what you're getting at. There's a griz poster grizatwork, who saw the game the same way I did. I think most objective observers do. Your take on the game has me stumped.

what i'm getting at is in this rivalry, some people tend to view things with blinders on. so i gave an example using a griz fan because i'd be shocked if people viewed the game the same way if the shoe was on the other foot. if this truly was one of the best football teams the cats have ever had....and the griz walked in and beat us by nearly four td's.....THAT was embarrassing to me. i don't care if the game was "actually closer than the score indicated" or any other excuse fans come up with after big losses. it was terrible, and at the hands of the griz made it even worse.

so, because using griz fans and egriz is asinine in an example...how about this. what if we would have beaten the griz in missoula by a score of 36-10. we came on this board and there would certainly be people boasting about what an ass-kicking they put on us. (they would be wrong of course) and say i came on here saying that while the win was nice, it really isn't much to be too excited about as the griz were in it nearly the whole time and the 26 point win really isn't indicitive of how the game played out.

i'm sure most here would agree with me right......?

[[cat_bracket]]

I'm not posting on egriz and if I did I would totally expect to get laughed out of the place and not be listened to. That's why I'm posting here in a conversation with a fellow Cat fan. If WashingtoninGriz were to post something similar on egriz, I won't be over there to argue with him. So I'm not sure what you're getting at. There's a griz poster grizatwork, who saw the game the same way I did. I think most objective observers do. Your take on the game has me stumped.

what i'm getting at is in this rivalry, some people tend to view things with blinders on. so i gave an example using a griz fan because i'd be shocked if people viewed the game the same way if the shoe was on the other foot. if this truly was one of the best football teams the cats have ever had....and the griz walked in and beat us by nearly four td's.....THAT was embarrassing to me. i don't care if the game was "actually closer than the score indicated" or any other excuse fans come up with after big losses. it was terrible, and at the hands of the griz made it even worse.

so, because using griz fans and egriz is asinine in an example...how about this. what if we would have beaten the griz in missoula by a score of 36-10. we came on this board and there would certainly be people boasting about what an ass-kicking they put on us. (they would be wrong of course) and say i came on here saying that while the win was nice, it really isn't much to be too excited about as the griz were in it nearly the whole time and the 26 point win really isn't indicitive of how the game played out.

i'm sure most here would agree with me right......?

You're probably right, but I can't speak for everyone else. I know if the roles were reversed that I would go along with whatever a griz, cat, eagle, lumberjack fan pointed out if it made sense. I'm not sure why you have this fatalistic approach, but I can see you're set on it and I'll leave it at that. Sometimes a one point win isn't indicitive of how a game played out either. The "not as close as the score makes it look" vs. "closer than the score makes it appear" line comes. That's not an excuse, just a reality.

[grizatwork]

I liken the cat griz game this year to the cat bison game last year. 4th quarter got away from you and it looked worse than it was. That being said, I think that the griz looked like the better team most of the game, and after the first quarter, I felt pretty good about our chances.

I think if you look at national championships, the score is 3-2 cats over griz. If you look at the general rivalry, it is almost 2-1 in favor of the griz. The streak played a big role in that, but it is pretty one sided. Mens basketball is a closer. I don't know the numbers, but aren't the cats slightly ahead? Womens basketball is generally one sided in favor of the griz, but the cats have caught up over the past decade or so. As for the other sports, no one I know really follows it and is not generally looked at when considering the overall rivalry.

I think the biggest concern cat fans have is the mens basketball program. They are happy with the women and I think the lady cats win this weekend. You should be happy with the football program. It has come a long way since the 90s. I think this conversation is a non starter if there was not such a large amount of frustration with the "second half swoon" that has become bobcat basketball.

[ilovethecats]

You're probably right, but I can't speak for everyone else. I know if the roles were reversed that I would go along with whatever a griz, cat, eagle, lumberjack fan pointed out if it made sense. I'm not sure why you have this fatalistic approach, but I can see you're set on it and I'll leave it at that. Sometimes a one point win isn't indicitive of how a game played out either. The "not as close as the score makes it look" vs. "closer than the score makes it appear" line comes. That's not an excuse, just a reality.

fatalistic approach?!

i said like 4-5 posts ago that we can agree to disagree on this one. you thought it was a good game and closer than it appeared. that's fine. i thought we got our asses handed to us and i thought the griz looked much better.

next year is a new season and i'm not in any way saying i think the griz will kill us again because i think they did this year. we just saw the game different that's all....

[[cat_bracket]]

I liken the cat griz game this year to the cat bison game last year. 4th quarter got away from you and it looked worse than it was. That being said, I think that the griz looked like the better team most of the game, and after the first quarter, I felt pretty good about our chances.

I think if you look at national championships, the score is 3-2 cats over griz. If you look at the general rivalry, it is almost 2-1 in favor of the griz. The streak played a big role in that, but it is pretty one sided. Mens basketball is a closer. I don't know the numbers, but aren't the cats slightly ahead? Womens basketball is generally one sided in favor of the griz, but the cats have caught up over the past decade or so. As for the other sports, no one I know really follows it and is not generally looked at when considering the overall rivalry.

I think the biggest concern cat fans have is the mens basketball program. They are happy with the women and I think the lady cats win this weekend. You should be happy with the football program. It has come a long way since the 90s. I think this conversation is a non starter if there was not such a large amount of frustration with the "second half swoon" that has become bobcat basketball.

Fun discussing this with both of you (GAW, iltc).

Yeah, there's lots of ways to look at the rivalry. I think Griz fans like to point out the 70-36-5 edge in football without taking into account how lop-sided it was the first 50 years or so with a lot of those years seeing UM in a more talented, prestigious and competitive conference and MSU playing in a league with smaller, much smaller at times, schools. But it is what it is, those games were played and UM won almost all of them. We as MSU fans just have to live with it. That being the case, then I think UM fans have to give MSU credit for its national basketball champion team and all the other successes in its athletic programs. No one has to make a big deal about those things, but then again maybe the 70-36-5 shouldn't get brought up as often as it does. It's aggravating when someone shoves the Streak or the 70-36-5 thing in my face, then says nothing that MSU has done in other sports matters or the NAIA champions or the 1929 hoop team don't count.

Bottom line is that 'the state of MSU athletics' not matter how you slice it is very good relative to other schools of the same ilk. This year's state of MSU vs. UM is bad for MSU, but I see nothing that makes me think it's going to stay that way or get worse next year.

[CapitalCityCat]

I'm more surprised that it wasn't Bear_Axed that did it

If it doesn't have a include a picture of a cat in a funny pose, wearing clothing, or having a cutesy subtitle dubbed over the photo, he doesn't seem to care.

[bpcats]

Small stuff: MSU has held its own in Rodeo, track and field, tennis, skiing etc vs UM and that won't change going into the future.

Men's Basketball vs UM: Can't remember the last time MSU hasn't fielded a team that didn't look like a high school JV squad compared to the rest of the conference let alone the Griz. Don't see any improvement coming anytime soon.

Women's Basketball vs UM: In the Big Sky conference the Lady Griz are the standard. Coach Selvig has dominated this conference for most of his 30+ years coaching at UM. His teams always play hard, play great defense, get better as the season wears on and surprisingly have a lot of the all-time top 3 point shooters in the conference. The Lady Griz will always be a factor in the conference but their dominance of winning 20+ conference titles is over and that has a lot to do with the balance in WBB in the Big Sky. ie even Weber State who hasn't won a conference game took ISU to double OT before losing to the league leading Bengals. Right now any team can beat any other team on a given night.

On the MSU side there was not much to note except for a period of time when Judy Spoelstra coached in the early nineties and was able to establish a team that mirrored and beat the Griz at their own style of game. Once Spoelstra left disaster his the ladies program until we hired Coach Binford. She has brought a fun style of basketball to watch, MSU teams went from slow plodders to almost a track team. Best part was that she was able to recruit to her style of play. She is also getting better as coach each year. I have been really impressed with the improvement on the defensive side of the ball for the lady Cats. MSU is playing on a level field with the Lady Griz.

Looking forward for the Lady Cats to next season ...will really miss Bussey and I don't see an heir apparent to her on the roster yet that can throw 20 points in on a consistent basis. I do agree that Ashley Albert will be our go to scorer next season though. Haven't seen Elliot(ton of potential but not a natural scorer yet), Durham or anybody else on the team flash that explosive scoring ability yet. I do love the incoming recruiting class with Montana's top player in Ferris, true point guard Stockton, Hommes (MSU Legacy continues), and local Bozeman player Dawkins. However...this league is balanced so they could get better and still take a step back in standings.

Football: To me there are three main reasons why UM has kicked our ass in football for so long and included last years game. Please note we are comparing ourselves to a consistent top 4 team in nation.

3) Support - started with Griz getting new stadium with Washington donation, hired a great coach in Read and built a machine. Filling a stadium with 20K fans is tough at our level and the Griz do it easily.

2) Quarterback play - MSU top QB's that could actually play the position and lead the team to wins..Kelley Bradley??, Lulay and now McGhee. UM on the other hand in our rivalry usually has fielded the better QB each year and has almost always gotten solid to QB play each year.

1) Massive O-line of the Griz - I see this as the difference every year. UM consistently fields one of the biggest o-lines at the FCS level and may have bigger o-lines than some NFL teams. Last year (and maybe this year) UM starting OG were 6'8" 315 in Kistler and Poehls...they are going to move some people. Even when MSU can match up every other position our defensive line simply gets blown up and pushed back. Even in years under Hauck where the Griz o-line couldn't pass block to save their lives they still bulldozed the Bobcats with their run game. What scares me about the Griz is that it seems like they are finally getting some decent o-line coaching. Last year those hogs were now moving and pulling and blowing open holes.

MSU on the other hand has gone with the "smaller yet very mobile movement(and we like it that way )". Meaning we started with a 225lb guy and bulked him up to 280 maybe..and said go for it. Technique wise, fight, etc Coach Mac gets everything he can out his guys. However the last o-lineman that I actually enjoyed watching block people and create that movement was Big Lou Saucedo. Even last year Burbank, Terrien, Dennehy took turns getting blasted into the backfield three yards all year long. Even two years when O. Davis made that run, UM had him stuffed 5 yards into the backfield but had enough ability to make the whole Griz team miss their tackles.

Common theme of championship teams in football - great offensive line that dominates their opponent either in run blocking, pass blocking (EWU) or both (NDSU).