Cats vs Cats

[grizzh8r]

my 2 cents...

bobby played a hell of a game last night. how he doesn't het touches in the last couple minutes after the night he had is baffling. i have said all year that i don't think this is a selfish team, but simply a team with no identity and no go-to guy. well, i am changing my stance here a little and frankly it's not good. if our guards aren't selfish, as they certainly look to be at times, then the only alternative is stupidity. i know that's harsh, but it's one or the other. either they simply don't WANT to put the ball in the hands of the guys that are hot, or they can't figure it out due to piss-poor court vision, and an abundance of turnovers. either way, it's basketball 101 that when a guy has the hot hand, you find ways to keep getting him the ball.

free throws...as it seems every season...are once again awful, and once again costing us wins. it's a complete effing joke that everyone in the building and listening on the radio knew that first of two free throws at the end of the game was going to be missed. admit it. what were you thinking when he stepped up to the line? and i'll go one step farther with my psychic skills. what were you all thinking when we fouled and put weber on the line with the opportunity to seal the deal? everyone of us KNEW those were going in. it's a simple fact, even if this team improves vastly over the next month, if they can't figure out a way to make these shots, we'll be one and done in the tourney.

refs won't win or lose a game for you. sure there will be games that we'll all agree were called poorly, but not enough to dictate winners and losers. fact is, we had many, many, many opportunities to score points, and get needed stops last night and we failed. not to mention turnovers which we had far to many of last night, and to make matters worse a lot of them came from our gurads whose job it is to take care of the ball, and DISTRIBUTE the ball. refs didn't lose the game last night, selfish/stupid play, turnovers, and missed free throws lost us the game. fact is, jesus christ, allah, and the pope could have officiated last night, and we still would have lost playing the way we played.

sorry, that was like 20 cents.

Well, I'm respectfully disagreeing with you. Did you see the game in person? MSU would have had a good half-dozen or so extra posessions had the correct call been made on the floor. They score on half of those posessions, they win, plain and simple.

As far a DHIW goes, STFU. You weren't there so you have no clue how badly that game was officated. Like I said, the worst performance I have ever witnessed in person. There should have been about 4 more fouls called on Weber, 3-4 more turnovers on Weber, and 2-3 less TO's for the Cats. Since when can you get possession of the ball on your back, roll over to your side, and be granted a timeout after losing posession of the ball? Evidently, if you're a Weber player, you get that call. A) it should have been called traveling. B) He shouldn't have been granted a TO, as he had lost possession of the ball.

In one particular seqence, Bullinger drove the lane right into two planted Bobcats (while traveling, non-the-less), knocking both of them to the floor, and made the bucket. The ball was inbounded to Navarre, who drove to the bucket with two guys moving with him, splits them only to lightly bump a MOVING Weber player (getting hacked in the process), only to be called for a charge. They did not call the game evenly. What was called a charge on the Cats on the offensive end was a block or a no-call against the Cats on the defensive end. This happened any number of times in the second half. I'm still seething over this one.

[GOKATS]

Well, I'm respectfully disagreeing with you. Did you see the game in person? MSU would have had a good half-dozen or so extra posessions had the correct call been made on the floor. They score on half of those posessions, they win, plain and simple.

As far a DHIW goes, STFU. You weren't there so you have no clue how badly that game was officated. Like I said, the worst performance I have ever witnessed in person. There should have been about 4 more fouls called on Weber, 3-4 more turnovers on Weber, and 2-3 less TO's for the Cats. Since when can you get possession of the ball on your back, roll over to your side, and be granted a timeout after losing posession of the ball? Evidently, if you're a Weber player, you get that call. A) it should have been called traveling. B) He shouldn't have been granted a TO, as he had lost possession of the ball.

In one particular seqence, Bullinger drove the lane right into two planted Bobcats (while traveling, non-the-less), knocking both of them to the floor, and made the bucket. The ball was inbounded to Navarre, who drove to the bucket with two guys moving with him, splits them only to lightly bump a MOVING Weber player (getting hacked in the process), only to be called for a charge. They did not call the game evenly. What was called a charge on the Cats on the offensive end was a block or a no-call against the Cats on the defensive end. This happened any number of times in the second half. I'm still seething over this one.

I'm with you, I don't hesitate to call out the refs when they do a bad job, but very seldom blame the outcome of a game on the officiating. Last night was an exception. It was like Fullerton pulled three guys off their bar stool, handed them a striped shirt and said, "go for it guys, it's called OJT, you'll figure it out" (they didn't). Friday nights officiating was bad, but last night was horrendous.

As far as dickheadinwa's comments go................, he doesn't know what the hell he's talking about 99% of the time and his comments on last nights game "which he didn't see" fit the mold.

[coachouert]

To paraphrase one of my favorite Coach Kramer quotes: I'm not allowed to comment on terrible officiating.

They did not win or lose the game though. Yes there were swings, but they did not win or lose it. For those who may be questioning just how bad they were, take a look at Will's game blog from last night...

3:18: After another huge three from Rush make it a one-point game, the officials just missed another one. I’m sorry, I hate to do this, but as an impartial observer looking at the officials, they’re doing a horrible job tonight. They missed a travel with Sessions rolling around on the ground and then gave him a timeout when he didn’t have possession. 68-67 WSU.

2:24: Things are getting dicey in here. Once again I think the officials gave WSU a timeout when they didn’t have possession. This time Huse agrees with me and gets on the refs. It’s to no avail. If WSU gets a bucket here, the game could be over. 70-67 WSU.

4:54: This a pretty appropriate time for the above photo. I try to stay impartial, but the refs have missed about two WSU travels in a row and this crowd is letting them hear it. Then on the offensive end, they go with a questionable charge call as Navarre was driving the lane and being hounded by two on ball defenders. Still 66-62 WSU.

Again, Navarre had a chance to tie and there were several opportunities for the Cats when they got it down to 1-4 points, but bad passes, missed layups and missed free throws were the undoing and everyone kept seeing the lead go back to 8-10 points. There were terrible calls yes, but MSU shot themselves in the foot several times in my opinion. That lost them the game, although the terrible officiating didn't help. Just my opinion.

[GrizinWashington]

People who blame losses on officiating are whiners. Pure and simple. And trust me, Griz fans do it too. Doesn't make it right. Doesn't make them any less of a whiner.

Yes, I'm certain the game was poorly officiated. It IS the Big Sky, after all. But do you think if you asked a Weber fan that they wouldn't be able to tell you just as many poor calls that went against them?? Again, I can't say for certain since I didn't see it. But in a game where the foul and FT numbers were identical, it's very difficult for a non-partisan person to think that the officials "won" the game for Weber.

And to WTG's point that it wouldn't have mattered if Jesus, Allah and the Pope had officiated: Actually, the Pope probably would have shied a few calls MSU's way. I can't imagine he's too keen on the Mormon types!!

[CelticCat]

People who blame losses on officiating are whiners. Pure and simple. And trust me, Griz fans do it too. Doesn't make it right. Doesn't make them any less of a whiner.

Yes, I'm certain the game was poorly officiated. It IS the Big Sky, after all. But do you think if you asked a Weber fan that they wouldn't be able to tell you just as many poor calls that went against them?? Again, I can't say for certain since I didn't see it. But in a game where the foul and FT numbers were identical, it's very difficult for a non-partisan person to think that the officials "won" the game for Weber.

And to WTG's point that it wouldn't have mattered if Jesus, Allah and the Pope had officiated: Actually, the Pope probably would have shied a few calls MSU's way. I can't imagine he's too keen on the Mormon types!!

Granted. But I also think it's naive to think that every game has exactly the same number of poor calls for each team, each team actually commited the same number of fouls, etc. The simple truth is sometimes a team gets hosed. Keep in mind I haven't commented on this game, and I won't, because MSU had themselves in a position to tie/win the game regardless of officiating, and they couldn't get it done. Refs can indirectly influence the outcome of a game, pure and simple. Basketball in particular since they dictate the flow and tempo of the game more than any other sport.

[whitetrashgriz]

some good points guys. and no, i wasn't at the game in person alst night as i have a house full of sick people. but it makes no difference. i have been involved in basketball my whole life playing, coaching, and even officiating. i have yet to witness one single game on any level where the game was determined by the officials. it doesn't happen. as GIW said, i have no doubt that they were bad. they are always bad. big sky officials as a whole are not good. but it's all about perspective, so of course we're going to think we got the worst of the calls. on friday night i was on egriz and a weber fan said that the griz could thank the officials for their win. isn't it funny how it's always the losing team talking about how bad the refs were? the fact is, even if the refs were the worst in the history of the game, even if they for whatever reason really wanted weber to win this game at all costs, (sounds silly doesn't it) it's still up to the players to play through it, take care of the ball, make their lay-ups, and especially their free throws. l luckily for the cats, this all means nothing. i promise you today they didn't all wake up blaming the refs for losing last night. if i talked to huse right now he'd say plain and simple that they didn't get it done. blaming refs is for the fans. the players and coaches know it was their OWN fault they lost the game, and they will work to fix things. otherwise, they may as well not even practice. what is the point? after all...the refs decide the outcomes right? not the players and coaches....

[GOKATS]

To paraphrase one of my favorite Coach Kramer quotes: I'm not allowed to comment on terrible officiating.

They did not win or lose the game though. Yes there were swings, but they did not win or lose it. For those who may be questioning just how bad they were, take a look at Will's game blog from last night...

3:18: After another huge three from Rush make it a one-point game, the officials just missed another one. I’m sorry, I hate to do this, but as an impartial observer looking at the officials, they’re doing a horrible job tonight. They missed a travel with Sessions rolling around on the ground and then gave him a timeout when he didn’t have possession. 68-67 WSU.

2:24: Things are getting dicey in here. Once again I think the officials gave WSU a timeout when they didn’t have possession. This time Huse agrees with me and gets on the refs. It’s to no avail. If WSU gets a bucket here, the game could be over. 70-67 WSU.

4:54: This a pretty appropriate time for the above photo. I try to stay impartial, but the refs have missed about two WSU travels in a row and this crowd is letting them hear it. Then on the offensive end, they go with a questionable charge call as Navarre was driving the lane and being hounded by two on ball defenders. Still 66-62 WSU.

Again, Navarre had a chance to tie and there were several opportunities for the Cats when they got it down to 1-4 points, but bad passes, missed layups and missed free throws were the undoing and everyone kept seeing the lead go back to 8-10 points. There were terrible calls yes, but MSU shot themselves in the foot several times in my opinion. That lost them the game, although the terrible officiating didn't help. Just my opinion.

Just to clarify, as piss poor as the officiating was last night, I'm not blaming them for the loss. The Cats played a good game for the most part against a tough team, but stupid turnovers, some rushed poor shots, missed FT's, etc. lost the game.

[whitetrashgriz]

now THAT i'll agree with completely.

[CATS2000]

Seriously, watching the game during the end of the first half and all of the 2nd half I was wondering what the point spread was for this game by the way the old hobbled ref was calling fouls. 'Cats had their chances to win the game and didn't come through. I just found in interesting the way that old ref was calling fouls.

[4everacatfan]

Keep Navare on the damn bench. He is the worse passer in the conference. How many times is he going to turn the ball over with bad passes. Doesn't he see the floor?

Sorry, off my rant!

Great game so far by Bobby Howard!

Navarre is a selfish player - don't you think it is odd that Bobby didn't get points in the last 11 minutes of the game...Navarre doesn't pass to him...and going for a two at the end and hoping for a foul was just plain ill-advised when Piepoli, BJ, and Howard were all ready and able to get a three to tie it up. The officiating was horrible, our free throw shooting was bad (better than last night, though) -- but for selfish players not to play a team game is inexcusable.

Great Post!!! Watched it on the internet a point guard by definition is one who DISTRIBUTES the ball Navarre and Bynum have yet to learn that. Put Rush at the point he may drive but has no problem getting the ball to the other four guys on the court when the defense collapses. I cannot understand why Navarre will not give it up. and that has been the story of the Cats the last five games Navarre thinks he can do it and he may of had 16 last night but he was horrible not giving the ball up to his teammates move him to the 2 and put Rush at the point that is my thoughts.

[Helcat72]

quote]

Well, I'm respectfully disagreeing with you. Did you see the game in person? MSU would have had a good half-dozen or so extra posessions had the correct call been made on the floor. They score on half of those posessions, they win, plain and simple.

As far a DHIW goes, STFU. You weren't there so you have no clue how badly that game was officated. Like I said, the worst performance I have ever witnessed in person. There should have been about 4 more fouls called on Weber, 3-4 more turnovers on Weber, and 2-3 less TO's for the Cats. Since when can you get possession of the ball on your back, roll over to your side, and be granted a timeout after losing posession of the ball? Evidently, if you're a Weber player, you get that call. A) it should have been called traveling. B) He shouldn't have been granted a TO, as he had lost possession of the ball.

In one particular seqence, Bullinger drove the lane right into two planted Bobcats (while traveling, non-the-less), knocking both of them to the floor, and made the bucket. The ball was inbounded to Navarre, who drove to the bucket with two guys moving with him, splits them only to lightly bump a MOVING Weber player (getting hacked in the process), only to be called for a charge. They did not call the game evenly. What was called a charge on the Cats on the offensive end was a block or a no-call against the Cats on the defensive end. This happened any number of times in the second half. I'm still seething over this one.

I don't really like to blame the refs....but I gotta agree with you on those points. That call with the weber player flat on his back and losing the ball out of bounds when he called time out and then have it be given to him was ridiculous! He let go of the ball to make a "T" with his hands...and when the time out was given the ball was 4 feet out of bounds in no one's posession. the over and back looked like a make-up call for the one against ISU...but with different refs...what is it with over and back calls? It's not the hardest call to get right especially when the ref was right on the line looking at the play!

The only thing that could have been called in the charge/block sequence was the fact that they may have thought the Bobcat Players were too far under the basket....but they called it the other way a few other times on the other end so I doubt that was what they were looking for. Maybe the league just wants the top teams in the league to be suc cessful late in the season....and the fact that we knocked them out of the championship last year might have rated the BSC lower in the tourney. I bet Fullerton cringes when those kinds of things happen!

[bpcats]

From what I have seen of the men's team this year including last night:
Good
1) Our guys are playing hard
2) Mentally tough
3) Brad Huse has got them playing good defense and is creative enough to design plays to get people open for good shots

Bad
1) We are last 8th in the conference in scoring offense
2) We are dead last in free throw percentage
3) We are not very good at rebounding no matter the effort given
4) Quick guards eat us up ala Dean from EWU.

With the way this team plays ball there is no room on offense for the team not to make free throws and expect us to win in this league. The men's team definitely misses having an inside presence like Divaldo on the team.

The women's team has struggle mightily trying to get their groove back and really didn't shoot well over the weekend but when your a +28 rebounding margin the first night and a +22 rebounding margin over the opposing team the following night and hit your free throws down the stretch you can pull out some games. They have the players to do that especially with Jaime Thorton coming back from injury and freshman Rachel Semansky coming on.

The men's team has to almost play perfect every night in order for them to win and I just don't see them going very far in the tournament with so little margin for error.

[John K]

From what I have seen of the men's team this year including last night:
Good
1) Our guys are playing hard
2) Mentally tough
3) Brad Huse has got them playing good defense and is creative enough to design plays to get people open for good shots

Bad
1) We are last 8th in the conference in scoring offense
2) We are dead last in free throw percentage
3) We are not very good at rebounding no matter the effort given
4) Quick guards eat us up ala Dean from EWU.

With the way this team plays ball there is no room on offense for the team not to make free throws and expect us to win in this league. The men's team definitely misses having an inside presence like Divaldo on the team.

The women's team has struggle mightily trying to get their groove back and really didn't shoot well over the weekend but when your a +28 rebounding margin the first night and a +22 rebounding margin over the opposing team the following night and hit your free throws down the stretch you can pull out some games. They have the players to do that especially with Jaime Thorton coming back from injury and freshman Rachel Semansky coming on.

The men's team has to almost play perfect every night in order for them to win and I just don't see them going very far in the tournament with so little margin for error.

That is the most relevant phrase that I have heard in this discussion so far. Maybe the officials were "turrible", as Charles Barkley would say, but every team in the league (not just MSU)is probably going to run into a game or two during the course of the season when they fall victim to more than their fair share of bad calls. Ideally, you would hope that your team is good enough to overcome this more often than not, but clearly this MSU team is not that good.

And one more thing....I haven't seen anyone mention the most obvious reason for a potential disrepancy in foul calls on one team versus the other. And this is simply how much a particular team is inclined to work the ball inside and penetrate with their guards, versus teams that are more perimeter oriented, such as the Cats. It therefore stands to reason that we will normally not draw as many fouls as our opponents, even when the officiating is very fair and even-handed. If the total fouls were dead even against WSU, then maybe it was not called as unfairly as people seem to believe. I'm not saying that there weren't plenty of bad calls that went agaisnt MSU, but maybe there was just as many that went against WSU, but for some strange reason our fans don't seem to notice those so much

[TomCat88]

So almost everyone (99.9999%) agrees that refs don't cause wins and losses, but that they do officiate poorly in a relative sense. In other words complaining about the refs isn't necessarily blaming the loss on the refs. In more other words this means that if an offensive foul isn't called and the shot goes in on the last play of the game, the refs didn't cost them the game, because the team had all kinds of other chances to score or stop the other team from scoring in the previous 39:59 and there may have been bad calls going your way to keep you in the game. Had they just built a 10 point lead the bad call wouldn't have mattered.

They do there best, they make mistakes, but they don't win or lose the game. It seems like it sometimes and their lack of call or bad call may come at the most inopportune time and caused a team to win/lose, but ultimately the teams decide the winner.

[whitetrashgriz]

So almost everyone (99.9999%) agrees that refs don't cause wins and losses, but that they do officiate poorly in a relative sense. In other words complaining about the refs isn't necessarily blaming the loss on the refs. In more other words this means that if an offensive foul isn't called and the shot goes in on the last play of the game, the refs didn't cost them the game, because the team had all kinds of other chances to score or stop the other team from scoring in the previous 39:59 and there may have been bad calls going your way to keep you in the game. Had they just built a 10 point lead the bad call wouldn't have mattered.

They do there best, they make mistakes, but they don't win or lose the game. It seems like it sometimes and their lack of call or bad call may come at the most inopportune time and caused a team to win/lose, but ultimately the teams decide the winner.

that's it exactly. refs are always going to miss calls. home fans are always going to blame the refs. visiting fans will always blame the refs. and fans of the losing team will always blame the refs. what's really funny, is that head coaches will ride the refs all game long lobbying for calls. they'll be screaming at them all game, and sometimes even get technicals for arguing so much. but when the game is over, win or lose, you'll never hear a coach mention the officiating. and when practice resumes again today, i promise the coaching staff won't say a single thing about the officiating because it meant nothing in the scheme of things. we lost because weber played better. that's it. this team needs to improve a lot if they want to make a run like last season. right now, i don't think we could be unc, wsu, or um. they're all getting better every week, and we seem to be pretty much staying right in the same place, if not going backwards a little. our free throws need to be addressed. our turnovers need to be addressed. and most importantly, our guard situation needs to be addressed. gotta figure out why they refuse to get the ball to the guys who are open, and more inportantly to the guys that have the hot hand.

[GOKATS]

So almost everyone (99.9999%) agrees that refs don't cause wins and losses, but that they do officiate poorly in a relative sense. In other words complaining about the refs isn't necessarily blaming the loss on the refs. In more other words this means that if an offensive foul isn't called and the shot goes in on the last play of the game, the refs didn't cost them the game, because the team had all kinds of other chances to score or stop the other team from scoring in the previous 39:59 and there may have been bad calls going your way to keep you in the game. Had they just built a 10 point lead the bad call wouldn't have mattered.

They do there best, they make mistakes, but they don't win or lose the game. It seems like it sometimes and their lack of call or bad call may come at the most inopportune time and caused a team to win/lose, but ultimately the teams decide the winner.

that's it exactly. refs are always going to miss calls. home fans are always going to blame the refs. visiting fans will always blame the refs. and fans of the losing team will always blame the refs. what's really funny, is that head coaches will ride the refs all game long lobbying for calls. they'll be screaming at them all game, and sometimes even get technicals for arguing so much. but when the game is over, win or lose, you'll never hear a coach mention the officiating. and when practice resumes again today, i promise the coaching staff won't say a single thing about the officiating because it meant nothing in the scheme of things. we lost because weber played better. that's it. this team needs to improve a lot if they want to make a run like last season. right now, i don't think we could be unc, wsu, or um. they're all getting better every week, and we seem to be pretty much staying right in the same place, if not going backwards a little. our free throws need to be addressed. our turnovers need to be addressed. and most importantly, our guard situation needs to be addressed. gotta figure out why they refuse to get the ball to the guys who are open, and more inportantly to the guys that have the hot hand.

Coaches don't say anything about the officiating because it'll get their ass in a jam with the conference office, not because they didn't think it had an effect on the game or was just plain awful.

[whitetrashgriz]

So almost everyone (99.9999%) agrees that refs don't cause wins and losses, but that they do officiate poorly in a relative sense. In other words complaining about the refs isn't necessarily blaming the loss on the refs. In more other words this means that if an offensive foul isn't called and the shot goes in on the last play of the game, the refs didn't cost them the game, because the team had all kinds of other chances to score or stop the other team from scoring in the previous 39:59 and there may have been bad calls going your way to keep you in the game. Had they just built a 10 point lead the bad call wouldn't have mattered.

They do there best, they make mistakes, but they don't win or lose the game. It seems like it sometimes and their lack of call or bad call may come at the most inopportune time and caused a team to win/lose, but ultimately the teams decide the winner.

that's it exactly. refs are always going to miss calls. home fans are always going to blame the refs. visiting fans will always blame the refs. and fans of the losing team will always blame the refs. what's really funny, is that head coaches will ride the refs all game long lobbying for calls. they'll be screaming at them all game, and sometimes even get technicals for arguing so much. but when the game is over, win or lose, you'll never hear a coach mention the officiating. and when practice resumes again today, i promise the coaching staff won't say a single thing about the officiating because it meant nothing in the scheme of things. we lost because weber played better. that's it. this team needs to improve a lot if they want to make a run like last season. right now, i don't think we could be unc, wsu, or um. they're all getting better every week, and we seem to be pretty much staying right in the same place, if not going backwards a little. our free throws need to be addressed. our turnovers need to be addressed. and most importantly, our guard situation needs to be addressed. gotta figure out why they refuse to get the ball to the guys who are open, and more inportantly to the guys that have the hot hand.

Coaches don't say anything about the officiating because it'll get their ass in a jam with the conference office, not because they didn't think it had an effect on the game.

nope, i meant behind closed doors, in the locker rooms and at practices. obviously no coach will criticize officials in the media. but i think some fans think that coaches and players blame the refs just like they do, and i was just pointing out that that was almost never the case. coaches and players don't blame refs for losses. fans do.

[GOKATS]

So almost everyone (99.9999%) agrees that refs don't cause wins and losses, but that they do officiate poorly in a relative sense. In other words complaining about the refs isn't necessarily blaming the loss on the refs. In more other words this means that if an offensive foul isn't called and the shot goes in on the last play of the game, the refs didn't cost them the game, because the team had all kinds of other chances to score or stop the other team from scoring in the previous 39:59 and there may have been bad calls going your way to keep you in the game. Had they just built a 10 point lead the bad call wouldn't have mattered.

They do there best, they make mistakes, but they don't win or lose the game. It seems like it sometimes and their lack of call or bad call may come at the most inopportune time and caused a team to win/lose, but ultimately the teams decide the winner.

that's it exactly. refs are always going to miss calls. home fans are always going to blame the refs. visiting fans will always blame the refs. and fans of the losing team will always blame the refs. what's really funny, is that head coaches will ride the refs all game long lobbying for calls. they'll be screaming at them all game, and sometimes even get technicals for arguing so much. but when the game is over, win or lose, you'll never hear a coach mention the officiating. and when practice resumes again today, i promise the coaching staff won't say a single thing about the officiating because it meant nothing in the scheme of things. we lost because weber played better. that's it. this team needs to improve a lot if they want to make a run like last season. right now, i don't think we could be unc, wsu, or um. they're all getting better every week, and we seem to be pretty much staying right in the same place, if not going backwards a little. our free throws need to be addressed. our turnovers need to be addressed. and most importantly, our guard situation needs to be addressed. gotta figure out why they refuse to get the ball to the guys who are open, and more inportantly to the guys that have the hot hand.

Coaches don't say anything about the officiating because it'll get their ass in a jam with the conference office, not because they didn't think it had an effect on the game.

nope, i meant behind closed doors, in the locker rooms and at practices. obviously no coach will criticize officials in the media. but i think some fans think that coaches and players blame the refs just like they do, and i was just pointing out that that was almost never the case. coaches and players don't blame refs for losses. fans do.

No, they won't say anything in front of the players, etc., but I've known many Cats coaches over the years and in friendly chit chat they don't hold back a bit on what they think of Big Sky officiating. To say otherwise is wearing blinders.

[whitetrashgriz]

So almost everyone (99.9999%) agrees that refs don't cause wins and losses, but that they do officiate poorly in a relative sense. In other words complaining about the refs isn't necessarily blaming the loss on the refs. In more other words this means that if an offensive foul isn't called and the shot goes in on the last play of the game, the refs didn't cost them the game, because the team had all kinds of other chances to score or stop the other team from scoring in the previous 39:59 and there may have been bad calls going your way to keep you in the game. Had they just built a 10 point lead the bad call wouldn't have mattered.

They do there best, they make mistakes, but they don't win or lose the game. It seems like it sometimes and their lack of call or bad call may come at the most inopportune time and caused a team to win/lose, but ultimately the teams decide the winner.

that's it exactly. refs are always going to miss calls. home fans are always going to blame the refs. visiting fans will always blame the refs. and fans of the losing team will always blame the refs. what's really funny, is that head coaches will ride the refs all game long lobbying for calls. they'll be screaming at them all game, and sometimes even get technicals for arguing so much. but when the game is over, win or lose, you'll never hear a coach mention the officiating. and when practice resumes again today, i promise the coaching staff won't say a single thing about the officiating because it meant nothing in the scheme of things. we lost because weber played better. that's it. this team needs to improve a lot if they want to make a run like last season. right now, i don't think we could be unc, wsu, or um. they're all getting better every week, and we seem to be pretty much staying right in the same place, if not going backwards a little. our free throws need to be addressed. our turnovers need to be addressed. and most importantly, our guard situation needs to be addressed. gotta figure out why they refuse to get the ball to the guys who are open, and more inportantly to the guys that have the hot hand.

Coaches don't say anything about the officiating because it'll get their ass in a jam with the conference office, not because they didn't think it had an effect on the game.

nope, i meant behind closed doors, in the locker rooms and at practices. obviously no coach will criticize officials in the media. but i think some fans think that coaches and players blame the refs just like they do, and i was just pointing out that that was almost never the case. coaches and players don't blame refs for losses. fans do.

No, they won't say anything in front of the players, etc., but I've known many Cats coaches over the years and in friendly chit chat they don't hold back a bit on what they think of Big Sky officiating. To say otherwise is wearing blinders.

again, this was never the debate. big sky officials are never very good. they never have been. you could make the case that they are actually quite bad. however, what got brought up in this thread was that the cats lost BECAUSE of the refs. i to have had many converstaions with coaches, and i have yet to hear one say that his team lost the game because of the refs. i've heard many say that the officiating was bad. i've heard several coaches talk about officials by their name and say how bad they were. but even these times they didn't blame said officilas for losses. it doesn't happen. i'm not wearing blinders at all.

[John K]

So almost everyone (99.9999%) agrees that refs don't cause wins and losses, but that they do officiate poorly in a relative sense. In other words complaining about the refs isn't necessarily blaming the loss on the refs. In more other words this means that if an offensive foul isn't called and the shot goes in on the last play of the game, the refs didn't cost them the game, because the team had all kinds of other chances to score or stop the other team from scoring in the previous 39:59 and there may have been bad calls going your way to keep you in the game. Had they just built a 10 point lead the bad call wouldn't have mattered.

They do there best, they make mistakes, but they don't win or lose the game. It seems like it sometimes and their lack of call or bad call may come at the most inopportune time and caused a team to win/lose, but ultimately the teams decide the winner.

that's it exactly. refs are always going to miss calls. home fans are always going to blame the refs. visiting fans will always blame the refs. and fans of the losing team will always blame the refs. what's really funny, is that head coaches will ride the refs all game long lobbying for calls. they'll be screaming at them all game, and sometimes even get technicals for arguing so much. but when the game is over, win or lose, you'll never hear a coach mention the officiating. and when practice resumes again today, i promise the coaching staff won't say a single thing about the officiating because it meant nothing in the scheme of things. we lost because weber played better. that's it. this team needs to improve a lot if they want to make a run like last season. right now, i don't think we could be unc, wsu, or um. they're all getting better every week, and we seem to be pretty much staying right in the same place, if not going backwards a little. our free throws need to be addressed. our turnovers need to be addressed. and most importantly, our guard situation needs to be addressed. gotta figure out why they refuse to get the ball to the guys who are open, and more inportantly to the guys that have the hot hand.

Coaches don't say anything about the officiating because it'll get their ass in a jam with the conference office, not because they didn't think it had an effect on the game.

nope, i meant behind closed doors, in the locker rooms and at practices. obviously no coach will criticize officials in the media. but i think some fans think that coaches and players blame the refs just like they do, and i was just pointing out that that was almost never the case. coaches and players don't blame refs for losses. fans do.

No, they won't say anything in front of the players, etc., but I've known many Cats coaches over the years and in friendly chit chat they don't hold back a bit on what they think of Big Sky officiating. To say otherwise is wearing blinders.

again, this was never the debate. big sky officials are never very good. they never have been. you could make the case that they are actually quite bad. however, what got brought up in this thread was that the cats lost BECAUSE of the refs. i to have had many converstaions with coaches, and i have yet to hear one say that his team lost the game because of the refs. i've heard many say that the officiating was bad. i've heard several coaches talk about officials by their name and say how bad they were. but even these times they didn't blame said officilas for losses. it doesn't happen. i'm not wearing blinders at all.

You are exactly right....there is a huge difference between saying that BSC officiating is often very bad, versus saying that the officials caused a particular team to lose a game. Saying that the officials did a terrible job acknowledges the fact that there were plenty of bad calls that went both ways, which is almost always the case IMHO. Saying the officials cost a specific game for MSU (or any other team, for that matter)implies that the bad calls went disproportionately against one team versus the other, and I just don't believe that happens very often. As fans, we simply tend to notice the bad calls against our team much more than the ones that go our way.

And you are also right, in saying that when "our" team loses, the coaches and players made far more mistakes that contributed to that loss, than did the officials.