Recruiting to Bozeman

Post by **SonomaCat** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:37 am

Bobby Howard's post raised a point that hasn't really been discussed much on here before, and really got me thinking. He notes that MSU is a hard place to recruit to ... and we've debated that point many times (I'm still of the opinion that Bozeman could be a basketball mecca if the support/money and momentum was there). However, he mentioned that the murders of five years ago are still having an impact on the program.

This could well be a point that doesn't get nearly enough attention. If you were a parent of a top flight recruit and you keep hearing from the other schools that the past players of Program X were convicted of drug charges and murder, would that scare you away from the program?

Probably, yes. How long will that episode haunt the program? Does that episode make it hard to judge Huse's coaching efforts?

Is this something that will just take time to overcome, and the program will have that anchor hanging around its neck until it eventually fades?

4everacatfan · Post by **4everacatfan** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:04 pm

If I was a parent that had two programs and one had this in its background I would probably stear my kid to the other program and the fact that we have had some problems with drugs not necessarily in the basketball program but also in other programs the last couple of years that would tend to push me as a parent away from MSU.

One other thing that Mr. Howard did not touch on is that it is harder to get student - athletes into MSU than other Big Sky Schools. There have been some noteable athletes who went to other schools because the academic standards at MSU are higher than others. Glenn Dean of EWU and Andrew Johnson of UM are two that could not get in to MSU academically. Please understand I am NOT saying that we need to lower our academic standards but it is an added hurdle to getting student-athletes in here. I'm not sure that is part of this discussion.

I do feel coach Huse has been fighting an uphill battle since he got this job with the drugs and murder thing hanging over his head.

JMO

wbtfg · Post by **wbtfg** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:10 pm

4everacatfan wrote:If I was a parent that had two programs and one had this in its background I would probably stear my kid to the other program and the fact that we have had some problems with drugs not necessarily in the basketball program but also in other programs the last couple of years that would tend to push me as a parent away from MSU.

One other thing that Mr. Howard did not touch on is that it is harder to get student - athletes into MSU than other Big Sky Schools. There have been some noteable athletes who went to other schools because the academic standards at MSU are higher than others. Glenn Dean of EWU and Andrew Johnson of UM are two that could not get in to MSU academically. Please understand I am NOT saying that we need to lower our academic standards but it is an added hurdle to getting student-athletes in here. I'm not sure that is part of this discussion.

I do feel coach Huse has been fighting an uphill battle since he got this job with the drugs and murder thing hanging over his head.

JMO

So why is it different for basketball than football?

The football team had WAAAAAAY more issues than basketball. And the football team has the same admissions requirements as bball. I'm not sure I see why one is finding success in the conference and the other isn't.

BTW: ANTHONY Johson could have been admitted to MSU. His JC GPA was fine (3.0+). Also, the NCAA D-I requirements are more stringent that MSU's admission requirements. So if a kid can pass the clearinghouse (which Glenn Dean apparently did) then he can get into MSU.

aucat · Post by **aucat** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:21 pm

Well, I disagree. Anyone with an objective mind should see that sordid drug story is now old news. We pretty much have a completely different set of coaches, administrators, and university president in place now compared to when that happened.

It all boils down to recruiting. Man, that is hard, hard work. I fully recognize that it is difficult to build a strong men's basketball program and also achieve the good academics, graduation rates, and good character as well. I think that most Bobcat fans would rather see us in the middle of the league with good kids than winning championships with thugs. So no, we don't need a "bag man" like the Bruce Pearls of the world.

On the other hand, we have so much to offer at MSU. The community, the fan support (can you imagine what it would be like if MSU competed for championships?), a great university. As I mentioned regarding Bobby's post, would you rather be at UNC in Greeley or MSU in Bozeman? Come on, there simply is no comparison.

I just think it comes down to the hard work that it takes with recruiting. I don't expect MSU to become the next Butler or Gonzaga; however, there is no reason why MSU should not compete toward the top of the Big Sky in all athletic programs. We are doing it in football and women's hoops. I think the volleyball program is headed up as well.

This year, I thought the gap in talent between our men's BB team and some other teams, such as the U. of Montana, was just huge. There is no excuse for that.

4everacatfan · Post by **4everacatfan** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:25 pm

wbtfg wrote:
4everacatfan wrote:If I was a parent that had two programs and one had this in its background I would probably stear my kid to the other program and the fact that we have had some problems with drugs not necessarily in the basketball program but also in other programs the last couple of years that would tend to push me as a parent away from MSU.

One other thing that Mr. Howard did not touch on is that it is harder to get student - athletes into MSU than other Big Sky Schools. There have been some noteable athletes who went to other schools because the academic standards at MSU are higher than others. Glenn Dean of EWU and Andrew Johnson of UM are two that could not get in to MSU academically. Please understand I am NOT saying that we need to lower our academic standards but it is an added hurdle to getting student-athletes in here. I'm not sure that is part of this discussion.

I do feel coach Huse has been fighting an uphill battle since he got this job with the drugs and murder thing hanging over his head.

JMO
So why is it different for basketball than football?

The football team had WAAAAAAY more issues than basketball. And the football team has the same admissions requirements as bball. I'm not sure I see why one is finding success in the conference and the other isn't.

BTW: ANTHONY Johson could have been admitted to MSU. His JC GPA was fine (3.0+). Also, the NCAA D-I requirements are more stringent that MSU's admission requirements. So if a kid can pass the clearinghouse (which Glenn Dean apparently did) then he can get into MSU.

I do not want to speculate more than I have but I think it has in a high schoolers case more to do with test scores, gpa and class ranking I do not think it is just the clearing house. If someone is more informed on this please explain. Also football can split scholarships and bball is full rides or walk on. I think MSU was looking at Johnson out of high school I should have stipulated that and when he was a JC it was a unique situation he needed a school that would take his wife as a player as well. Sorry for the confusion good point on the football versus basketball if someone can elaborate that would be good I'm curious too.

ilovethecats · Post by **ilovethecats** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:35 pm

if i was a parent of a kid deciding on a school, previous transgressions at that school would mean nothing to me if actions were already taken by the school. it has already been mentioned, but both our basketball and football staffs have been completely changed since some idiots years ago decised to sell drugs and kill people. it has no impact AT ALL on our current programs. personally i see that as an excuse and i hope the coaches aren't still saying things like this.

not to mention, as a father, i am confident in the job i'm doing of raising my kids. i can say with some certainty that they won't be selling drugs or killing people....even if they go a school where a guy killed another guy over five years ago....

4everacatfan · Post by **4everacatfan** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:53 pm

I see all your points and agree with them. I do not think any coaches use that as an excuse but and I speak as an out of stater you hear that as big news 5 years ago and you do not hear how they have changed and cleaned it up and you hear the Kramer stories especially in Spokane and when you mention MSU people over hear still remember the murder incident. I am just saying that out of state we are not as privy to all the changes tht you in Montana hear about. Just a difference.

ilovethecats · Post by **ilovethecats** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:59 pm

4everacatfan wrote:I see all your points and agree with them. I do not think any coaches use that as an excuse but and I speak as an out of stater you hear that as big news 5 years ago and you do not hear how they have changed and cleaned it up and you hear the Kramer stories especially in Spokane and when you mention MSU people over hear still remember the murder incident. I am just saying that out of state we are not as privy to all the changes tht you in Montana hear about. Just a difference.

i can see that and admit i didn't look at it that way. however, if a parent really has concerns, they will likely do a little research and find out if problems have been fixed. i'm just having a hard time grasping how one moron hoops player killing someone 5 plus years ago is impacting our recruiting today....

wbtfg · Post by **wbtfg** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:45 pm

I'm guessing some out of staters see MSU in the same light that I would see a program like Baylor.

They seem to have rebounded okay, as I believe there were a 2 seed in the tourney last year...

GrizinWashington · Post by **GrizinWashington** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:28 pm

One other thing that Mr. Howard did not touch on is that it is harder to get student - athletes into MSU than other Big Sky Schools. There have been some noteable athletes who went to other schools because the academic standards at MSU are higher than others. Glenn Dean of EWU and Andrew Johnson of UM are two that could not get in to MSU academically

Incorrect on both accounts. UM and MSU have precisely the same entrance requirements for all students and for student athletes. If a student qualifies for one, they qualify for the other. I'm unsure where the belief from MSU students comes from that their entrance (or graduation) requirements are different from those of UM. They are identical in every way.

And AJ could have qualified for any public university in the country.

You are correct that other programs, particularly Eastern, takes students that would not be admitted to either primary Montana campus.

catamaran · Post by **catamaran** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:36 pm

GrizinWashington wrote:
One other thing that Mr. Howard did not touch on is that it is harder to get student - athletes into MSU than other Big Sky Schools. There have been some noteable athletes who went to other schools because the academic standards at MSU are higher than others. Glenn Dean of EWU and Andrew Johnson of UM are two that could not get in to MSU academically
Incorrect on both accounts. UM and MSU have precisely the same entrance requirements for all students and for student athletes. If a student qualifies for one, they qualify for the other. I'm unsure where the belief from MSU students comes from that their entrance (or graduation) requirements are different from those of UM. They are identical in every way.

And AJ could have qualified for any public university in the country.

You are correct that other programs, particularly Eastern, takes students that would not be admitted to either primary Montana campus.

I think they could possibly mean the standards set by the athletics department after the "armageddon". Recruits had to pass through a lot more stringent qualifiers than the average student.

wbtfg · Post by **wbtfg** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:37 pm

GrizinWashington wrote:I'm unsure where the belief from MSU students comes from that their entrance (or graduation) requirements are different from those of UM. They are identical in every way.

After the whole football APR debacle the MSU athletic dept. reviewed each and every potential recruit. It's my understanding that there is less of this going on now, but at the time there were a number of NCAA eligible athletes who were turned away by our own athletic dept, whereas they would have been admitted by the school.

technoCat · Post by **technoCat** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:43 pm

I've always wondered if the fact that basketball is a much more urban sport than football had an effect. Seems like it would be harder to get a city kid to come here than someone from a "smaller" Texas community. Might just be too much of a culture shock.

GrizinWashington · Post by **GrizinWashington** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:20 pm

wbtfg wrote:
GrizinWashington wrote:I'm unsure where the belief from MSU students comes from that their entrance (or graduation) requirements are different from those of UM. They are identical in every way.
After the whole football APR debacle the MSU athletic dept. reviewed each and every potential recruit. It's my understanding that there is less of this going on now, but at the time there were a number of NCAA eligible athletes who were turned away by our own athletic dept, whereas they would have been admitted by the school.

Ahh. Thanks to you and catarmaran for the clarification. I do recall some discussion about that a few years back. I had assumed most of those decisions came down to moral issues rather than academic.

bcats · Post by **bcats** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 8:49 pm

I don't know how much MSU's incident 5 years ago can be blamed for poor recruitiing. Baylor's problem was a lot worse and they have had pretty good success in a much tougher conference the last couple of years.

BelgradeBobcat · Post by **BelgradeBobcat** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:24 pm

Huse alluded to incident 5 years ago in an interview once. He said some players passed us by because of it. I suppose the Frank Brown fiasco also didn't help. I'm sure other recruiters used it against us. But that's got to be over now I would think.

Maybe that's why we only have two 5 year players (Rush and Piepoli) and one 4 year player (Howard)?

We had no sophomores on this year's team, and only one three year player (Anderson). That's a lot of holes.

This year's freshman class had a lot more bodies anyway. It remains to be seen if a few of them can play. I question whether Trujecue and Tor Anderson are D-1 scholarship worthy players. Perhaps a second season redshirt would be in order for those two? It certianly helped Rush and Piepoli.

Huse has two JC guys signed for next season. Jamie Stewart and Mohamed Fall. Stewart is a guard/small forward and Fall is a center. Mslacat's Tweets seem to indicate Huse is trying to get another scoring guard with the scholarship he has left. I don't think he has any other openings unless someone on the current squad leaves-which is always possible and not unexpected.

I do think we need more in state players (Huse probably does too). Personally, I can't believe there weren't a few Montana high school kids that were at least as good as Trujecue and Tor Anderson. Maybe Huse needs to gamble a little more in state?

Cat_gld · Post by **Cat_gld** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:30 pm

The attitude that Bozeman is "a hard sell" and the murder and drug issues of 5 years ago are IMHO nothing but unadulterated BS comming from within the MBB program. Also manipulating what the athletes themselve can and cannot read boils down to censorship plain and simple. I heard the same bullsh!t about recruiting football players to Bozeman from boosters and players when Cliff Hysell was coaching the football. Coaches Kramer and Ash have long since debunked that crap. The moral of the story is that a long litany of excuses will never replace good coaching and recruiting of quality DI talent. It seems to me the the program as it is has done a real disservice to student athletes during their tenure at MSU by managing and manipulating the information they get.

John K · Post by **John K** » Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:59 am

BelgradeBobcat wrote:Huse alluded to incident 5 years ago in an interview once. He said some players passed us by because of it. I suppose the Frank Brown fiasco also didn't help. I'm sure other recruiters used it against us. But that's got to be over now I would think.

I do think we need more in state players (Huse probably does too). Personally, I can't believe there weren't a few Montana high school kids that were at least as good as Trujecue and Tor Anderson. Maybe Huse needs to gamble a little more in state?

I would love to see more in-state players, and am reminded that our last BSC championship team had 3 starters and a key reserve who were from Montana. It seems that Huse has taken some chances on in-state kids such as Brumwell, Davis, and Little, although most MSU fans don't seem to feel that any of those kids are legitimate D-I players. The football program long ago overcame whatever negative PR was associated with it, so blaming the Miller incident for the current state of MBB is a complete red herring IMHO.

TrueCat · Post by **TrueCat** » Fri Mar 11, 2011 9:47 am

I guess I do not get it. We have a 4 year player from Montana who was bold and gracious enough to come on BN and discuss some of the issues that we have been debating all seaston. He deliberately addresses things like: coach Huse, Coach Preibe and recruting. He makes mention that recruting to Bozeman is difficult for certain reasons and the murder that took place 5 years ago had a strong inpact on that...so my question is why do we discredit this? Is there anyone more informed on this process than a 4 year player FROM Montana who has been recruited and seen 4 years of recruits come through MSU?

I do not want to start a huge debate over this becasue we all have pride in MSU, Montana and Bozeman, nonetheless; IMHO Howard would have much more insight into this process than anyone of us would

ilovethecats · Post by **ilovethecats** » Fri Mar 11, 2011 9:51 am

Cat_gld wrote:The attitude that Bozeman is "a hard sell" and the murder and drug issues of 5 years ago are IMHO nothing but unadulterated BS comming from within the MBB program. Also manipulating what the athletes themselve can and cannot read boils down to censorship plain and simple. I heard the same bullsh!t about recruiting football players to Bozeman from boosters and players when Cliff Hysell was coaching the football. Coaches Kramer and Ash have long since debunked that crap. The moral of the story is that a long litany of excuses will never replace good coaching and recruiting of quality DI talent. It seems to me the the program as it is has done a real disservice to student athletes during their tenure at MSU by managing and manipulating the information they get.

to be fair, in this internet crazy age, where info get passed on a million miles an hour...there really is nothing good that can come from players reading these boards. we're nothing more than passionate fans, and more times than not we speak without really knowing what the hell we are talking about! it is all opinions over here, and while i think we do a pretty good job on this board compared to others, we can still be hard on the players....myself included. i was killed over here for comments on the basketball team....but that was absolutely nothing compared to what has been said about the football program over the years. look at the garbage over at egriz sometimes and tell me what benefit any player would have reading any of that stuff...other than maybe a good laugh.

bottom line is all coaches have their rules. i don't see this as being a bad one. but let's be honest, any one of our players could be on this site everyday and huse would never have a clue. but the players likely don't want to be because they don't need to read stuff about them and everything that they are doing wrong. and i fully admit i can be one of these guys sometimes when i get frustrated with what i'm watching. but i still don't think my comments were out of bounds, but at the same time i don't see what players could benefit from reading crap on message boards.

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