Is MSU a coaching graveyard?

AlphaOAlum · Post by **AlphaOAlum** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 8:57 am

Flashy title to get your attention... I'm not sure if this should go in football, basketball, etc., but it seemed timely. Many people have wondered why MSU isn't a stepping stone school for coaches. It's a good question.

Here's how the careers of coaches in football and men's basketball ended at MSU over the last 50 years:

Football
- Ash: 7 years, still here
- Kramer: 6 years, fired
- Hysell: 7 years, resigned for health reasons
- Solomonson: 4 years, fired
- Arnold: 3 years, fired
- Graber: 1 year, left in 1982 to become an assistant coach with the Kansas City Chiefs
- Lubick: 3 years, fired
- Holland, 6 years, resigned (under pressure? link to Spokesman review article: http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 76,3778541 )
- Parac: 3 years, promoted to Athletic director
- Sweeney: 5 years, went to Washington State

Men's Basketball
- Huse: 8 years, resigned
- Durham: 16 years, resigned
- Starner: 7 years, left in 1990 to become the head coach at Texas-San Antonio
- Haroldson: 5 years, left to become the head coach at Pacific Lutheran
- Juarez: 4 years (looks like he only coached at MSU and had a career winning percentage of .379-- fired?)
- Anderson: 2 years (Came to MSU from Gonzaga- then a Big Sky team, and left 2 years later for NAU to become the AD)
- Hulst: 3 years (looks like he only coached at MSU and had a career winning percentage at .338-- I'll guess he was fired?)
- Craft: 7 years (I can only find statistics: he had a winning percentage of .526 and 2 conference titles)

So, we haven't had a coach be "hired up" since the women's hoops coach took the position at Oregon State in the late 1990's, right?

I don't really have a "point," I just thought the long view was interesting. Why isn't MSU a stepping stone school?

wbtfg · Post by **wbtfg** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 9:01 am

NM....just saw your edit.

dwainegf · Post by **dwainegf** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 9:42 am

Because we are a destination school. LOL At least we would be if they hired me.

Post by **SonomaCat** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:37 am

Interesting analysis ... apparently we haven't made very many good hires of young coaches over the years. Do we tend to hire older coaches with lower ceilings but established resumes?

SACCAT · Post by **SACCAT** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:32 am

Bay Area Cat wrote:Interesting analysis ... apparently we haven't made very many good hires of young coaches over the years. Do we tend to hire older coaches with lower ceilings but established resumes?

Seems we go with the "Safe Bet"

Jobu · Post by **Jobu** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:13 pm

Wow. Great post, AlphaO.

And frankly, that's extremely disappointing, especially compared to the coaching history at UM. The only griz coach I can recall leaving over the last 20 years or so who wasn't taking a better/bigger job was Kennedy (and I guess you could include Read, who retired).

Even schools like Eastern, NAU, and PSU have had coaches move on to larger programs. Makes you wonder what we're doing wrong.

Helcat72 · Post by **Helcat72** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:43 pm

Looks pretty much like we are!

BigBruceBaker · Post by **BigBruceBaker** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:58 pm

AlphaOAlum wrote:Flashy title to get your attention... I'm not sure if this should go in football, basketball, etc., but it seemed timely. Many people have wondered why MSU isn't a stepping stone school for coaches. It's a good question.

Here's how the careers of coaches in football and men's basketball ended at MSU over the last 50 years:

Football
- Ash: 7 years, still here
- Kramer: 6 years, fired
- Hysell: 7 years, resigned for health reasons
- Solomonson: 4 years, fired
- Arnold: 3 years, fired
- Graber: 1 year, left in 1982 to become an assistant coach with the Kansas City Chiefs
- Lubick: 3 years, fired
- Holland, 6 years, resigned (under pressure? link to Spokesman review article: http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 76,3778541 )
- Parac: 3 years, promoted to Athletic director
- Sweeney: 5 years, went to Washington State

Men's Basketball
- Huse: 8 years, resigned
- Durham: 16 years, resigned
- Starner: 7 years, left in 1990 to become the head coach at Texas-San Antonio
- Haroldson: 5 years, left to become the head coach at Pacific Lutheran
- Juarez: 4 years (looks like he only coached at MSU and had a career winning percentage of .379-- fired?)
- Anderson: 2 years (Came to MSU from Gonzaga- then a Big Sky team, and left 2 years later for NAU to become the AD)
- Hulst: 3 years (looks like he only coached at MSU and had a career winning percentage at .338-- I'll guess he was fired?)
- Craft: 7 years (I can only find statistics: he had a winning percentage of .526 and 2 conference titles)

So, we haven't had a coach be "hired up" since the women's hoops coach took the position at Oregon State in the late 1990's, right?

I don't really have a "point," I just thought the long view was interesting. Why isn't MSU a stepping stone school?

AOA, what was the median age of hire? I have a feeling we hired older coaches and rarely take chances on young, up and coming coaches.

HassFan · Post by **HassFan** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:05 pm

And frankly, that's extremely disappointing, especially compared to the coaching history at UM. The only griz coach I can recall leaving over the last 20 years or so who wasn't taking a better/bigger job was Kennedy (and I guess you could include Read, who retired).

Don Holst ??

Helcat72 · Post by **Helcat72** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:41 pm

HassFan wrote:And frankly, that's extremely disappointing, especially compared to the coaching history at UM. The only griz coach I can recall leaving over the last 20 years or so who wasn't taking a better/bigger job was Kennedy (and I guess you could include Read, who retired).

Don Holst ??

I wouldn't want a coach whose blood runs maroon and silver

Jobu · Post by **Jobu** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:29 pm

Helcat72 wrote:
HassFan wrote:And frankly, that's extremely disappointing, especially compared to the coaching history at UM. The only griz coach I can recall leaving over the last 20 years or so who wasn't taking a better/bigger job was Kennedy (and I guess you could include Read, who retired).

Don Holst ??
I wouldn't want a coach whose blood runs maroon and silver

No, I don't think Hass was suggesting Holst as the new coach at MSU, but rather that he was correcting me that Kennedy has been the only one fired at UM in the last 20 years. And he's absolutely correct. Holst was fired as well. But only after winning the conference title!

Take a moment to consider that level of expectation for a program.

Anacomando · Post by **Anacomando** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:53 am

It looks like the Cats fired some decent coaches, more than anything it looks like an overall AD problem!

Cat_gld · Post by **Cat_gld** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 8:24 am

Anacomando wrote:It looks like the Cats fired some decent coaches, more than anything it looks like an overall AD problem!

I agree. Looking back, how many of MSU's athletic directors have moved on to major college programs since Gene Bourdet (sp) follwed Sweeny? Fullerton's move to Salt Lake doesn't count as a move up to my way of thinking.

AlphaOAlum · Post by **AlphaOAlum** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 8:34 am

BigBruceBaker wrote: AOA, what was the median age of hire? I have a feeling we hired older coaches and rarely take chances on young, up and coming coaches.

Really good question. I'll look into it this weekend. I'll also try to update their winning percentages, conference titles, etc. Can I add a spreadsheet to BN?

desmond1957 · Post by **desmond1957** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 1:49 pm

Interesting post. Some input from long-term cat: Roger Craft-great coach , well liked, retired with nothing to prove here in Bozeman and went into business here. Can be found sitting in stands at every? bb game. Hank Anderson, came in from Gonzaga ( to retire?) with great record after long career there, showed little interest in being ACTIVE coach here,bailed out to take AD job at NAU. Juarez was brought in with Anderson( Assistant) from Gonzaga and promoted when Anderson left, terrible decision, really bad coach and recruiter, fired. Hulst, right off the start said Montana kids couldn't play at this level (big hit with Montana kids on the team such as Mark Beckwith, Scott Koelzer and Greg Harris). Famous for his mouth, 3 years was more than enough. Curious about Sonny Holland article, most popular coach ever at MSU . Was unanimously nominated for AD by selection committee (twice!) to Tietz (president) who overruled committee rec's and Hired FULLERTON as AD. We're still paying for that (see Mens BB schedule ie. Monday nite home game with Griz). In Andersons case , too old. In Juarez case bad in-house promotion. In Hulst case, just a BAD hire!!

John K · Post by **John K** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 3:11 pm

AlphaOAlum wrote:
BigBruceBaker wrote: AOA, what was the median age of hire? I have a feeling we hired older coaches and rarely take chances on young, up and coming coaches.
Really good question. I'll look into it this weekend. I'll also try to update their winning percentages, conference titles, etc. Can I add a spreadsheet to BN?

A minor correction to your original post...you had the tenures short by a year for all of the football coaches, except for Ash and Graber. Kramer was actually at MSU for 7 years (2000-2006), Hysell - 8 (1992-1999), Solomonson - 5 (1987-1991), Arnold - 4 (1983-1986), Graber - 1 (1982), Lubick - 4 (1978-1981), and Holland - 7 (1971-1977).

Graber is one of the few who would have belonged in the "young, up and coming" category, as he was only 37 when he was hired. He did a great job in his one year at MSU, winning a share of the BSC title, coming off a 3-7 record the year before, and I was really disappointed when he left. I'll always have a soft spot in my heart for Arnold, for having led MSU to a NC, but I sometimes wondered if the 80's might have been better for us overall, had Graber stuck around for a few more years. He never really distinguished himself after leaving MSU though. He left KC to become the head coach at Rutgers, and was only 29-36-1 there. He also coached Frankfurt in NFL Europe for three years, and while his overall record was only 16-15, he did win the league title in 2003.

AlphaOAlum · Post by **AlphaOAlum** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 3:50 pm

desmond1957 wrote:Interesting post. Some input from long-term cat: Roger Craft-great coach , well liked, retired with nothing to prove here in Bozeman and went into business here. Can be found sitting in stands at every? bb game. Hank Anderson, came in from Gonzaga ( to retire?) with great record after long career there, showed little interest in being ACTIVE coach here,bailed out to take AD job at NAU. Juarez was brought in with Anderson( Assistant) from Gonzaga and promoted when Anderson left, terrible decision, really bad coach and recruiter, fired. Hulst, right off the start said Montana kids couldn't play at this level (big hit with Montana kids on the team such as Mark Beckwith, Scott Koelzer and Greg Harris). Famous for his mouth, 3 years was more than enough. Curious about Sonny Holland article, most popular coach ever at MSU . Was unanimously nominated for AD by selection committee (twice!) to Tietz (president) who overruled committee rec's and Hired FULLERTON as AD. We're still paying for that (see Mens BB schedule ie. Monday nite home game with Griz). In Andersons case , too old. In Juarez case bad in-house promotion. In Hulst case, just a BAD hire!!

Thanks for this information! All I could do was google. I'll try to update the information into the original post over the weekend.

imacat · Post by **imacat** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 5:32 pm

- Hulst: 3 years (looks like he only coached at MSU and had a career winning percentage at .338-- I'll guess he was fired?)

Gary Hulst recruited some very good players during his short tenure, including Bill Brickhouse, Willie Weeks, Mark Beckwith, Brent Wilson and Scott Koelzer. Immediately upon leaving Montana State he was hired as an assistant at the University of Colorado. Brent Wilson followed him there.

desmond1957 · Post by **desmond1957** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:55 pm

From what I saw of Brent Wilson while a Bobcat it would be a MAJOR stretch to call him a "very good player", the rest you list were excellent. The Bobcat freshman team that included Koelzer, Beckwith, Greg Harris averaged over 100 points a game against other frosh teams in the conference and IMO could have possibly?probably? have thumped our varsity team. One of the funniest things I ever saw was when they demolished the Idaho State frosh and their coach pulled their team in the fourth quarter and walked off the court challenging one of the refs to fight over his calls, ref was some guy named Sonny Holland!!! Pretty hilarious!!!

Helcat72 · Post by **Helcat72** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 4:54 pm

desmond1957 wrote:From what I saw of Brent Wilson while a Bobcat it would be a MAJOR stretch to call him a "very good player", the rest you list were excellent. The Bobcat freshman team that included Koelzer, Beckwith, Greg Harris averaged over 100 points a game against other frosh teams in the conference and IMO could have possibly?probably? have thumped our varsity team. One of the funniest things I ever saw was when they demolished the Idaho State frosh and their coach pulled their team in the fourth quarter and walked off the court challenging one of the refs to fight over his calls, ref was some guy named Sonny Holland!!! Pretty hilarious!!!

Greg Harris played much earlier than any of the ones mentioned. He was on the varsity when I started in 1967