Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays

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'93HonoluluCat
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Post by '93HonoluluCat » Sun Dec 11, 2005 8:42 pm

Bay Area Cat wrote:Yeah, I know. People have been pretty good at claiming that traditions and stories that pre-date Christianity and also show up in Christian practices/stories are purely coincidental (or lies, or acts of Satan, etc.) for a long, long time.

I'm not sure of the motivation for that spin, but it certainly does exist.
How do you know which to believe? I wouldn't be so quick to judge which was "first."

Without concrete evidence to the contrary (like first-hand reports, perhaps), I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the "other side of the story" you champion so often.


Cory Miller
PolSci '93

"If you read the news coverage and it leaves you dispirited, demoralized, and depressed, that's not an accident. That's the goal." --Instapundit

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Post by SonomaCat » Sun Dec 11, 2005 10:08 pm

'93HonoluluCat wrote:
Bay Area Cat wrote:Yeah, I know. People have been pretty good at claiming that traditions and stories that pre-date Christianity and also show up in Christian practices/stories are purely coincidental (or lies, or acts of Satan, etc.) for a long, long time.

I'm not sure of the motivation for that spin, but it certainly does exist.
How do you know which to believe? I wouldn't be so quick to judge which was "first."

Without concrete evidence to the contrary (like first-hand reports, perhaps), I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the "other side of the story" you champion so often.
Sure, everything can and should be questioned ... and all perspectives should be challenged. Whichever one stands up best to objective skepticism is likely the right answer.



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briannell
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Post by briannell » Tue Dec 13, 2005 8:50 pm

Our Godless founding fathers? (Joe Scarborough)



Benjamin Franklin implored constitutional delegates to pray to the Lord for guidance in their deliberations. You judge whether Franklin believed faith should be kept in the public square.

“God governs in the affairs of man," Franklin said at the Constitutional Convention of 1787. "And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel”

Again, if you want to prove to the world that Christmas is a pagan holiday and that there is no room for God in government, make that argument. Free country. I just don't stay up at night wondering whether the White House and Target celebrate "Christmas" or the "Holiday Season."

Still, don't tell me our founders wanted to separate God from government. It just isn't true. That movement began with the U.S. Supreme Court’s in the 1947 Everson decision.

Anyway, that’s today history lesson. Gotta go. Thinking about this War on Christmas junk is making me thirsty. Time to double up on the eggnog.

Cheers.

Comments? Email JScarborough@msnbc.com


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Post by SonomaCat » Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:03 pm

The whole "Founding Fathers" argument is abused by so many people for so many reasons, and so often botched miserably, but if one wants to talk religion and Founding Fathers, Ben Franklin isn't the right horse to bet on if one is a Christian. Some selected BF quotes:

When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.
-- Benjamin Franklin, letter to Richard Price, October 9, 1780, quoted from Adrienne Koch, ed., The American Enlightenment: The Shaping of the American Experiment and a Free Society, New York: George Braziller, 1965, p. 93.

The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason: The Morning Daylight appears plainer when you put out your Candle.
-- Benjamin Franklin, the incompatibility of faith and reason, Poor Richard's Almanack (1758)

I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies.
-- Benjamin Franklin, quoted from Victor J. Stenger, Has Science Found God? (2001)

Many a long dispute among divines may be thus abridged: It is so; It is not so. It is so; it is not so.
-- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, 1743

If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in the pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution in the Romish Church, but practiced it upon the Puritans. These found it wrong in the bishops, but fell into the same practice themselves both here and in New England.
-- Benjamin Franklin, An Essay on Toleration

Lighthouses are more helpful than churches.
-- Benjamin Franklin (attributed: source unknown)

He [the Rev. Mr. Whitefield] used, indeed, sometimes to pray for my conversion, but never had the satisfaction of believing that his prayers were heard.
-- Benjamin Franklin, from Franklin's Autobiography



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Post by bozbobcat » Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:47 pm

Benjamin Franklin was one of the greatest philosophers of any time in American history. Religion is not associated with reason in his philosophies. Franklin's philosophies were part of the Enlightenment when religion was being challenged by science and reason. Enlightenment thoughts were especially prevalent in the U.S. constitution; Thomas Jefferson was a major part of this movement. I know this is off of the topic, but I just felt the need to bring historical enlightenment to this topic. The religious debates that we see today come from this type of philosophy with the separation of religion and reason, or church and state.

This is another great Franklin quote. On the eve of the American Revolution, Ben Franklin looked upon a chair in Independence Hall and asked himself repeatedly if the engraving on the chair was a rising or a setting sun. But after helping to craft the Declaration of Independence, he said "I know now that it is indeed a rising sun." And the American nation was born.


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Post by wbtfg » Fri Dec 16, 2005 1:35 pm

Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, both are fine with me. Just as long as it isn't Merry Grizmas (which is what a lot of Missoula merchants are saying). ](*,)



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Post by El_Gato » Fri Dec 16, 2005 2:23 pm

I have to admit I chuckled when I saw the promo for Denis Leary's Xmas special on the Comedy Channel:

Merry F@#$in' Christmas!


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Post by SonomaCat » Tue Dec 20, 2005 2:48 pm

A somewhat funny/somewhat insightful perspective on the whole issue:

http://www.reason.com/links/links121905.shtml



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Post by briannell » Tue Dec 20, 2005 4:44 pm

since we're still on this "war about christmas" topic, Irecently read this in Slate magazine :-)


Wreaths
The demure symbol of Christmas.
By Bryan Curtis
Posted Monday, Dec. 19, 2005, at 6:25 PM ET



Call it wreath avant-garde.

Until now, the Christmas wreath has provoked no public controversy whatsoever. One reason is that the wreath is the most demure of holiday symbols. One could imagine the row that would occur if a Christmas tree—say, the iconic one in Rockefeller Center—were cut down and carried off. Yet in 2002, when wreaths were removed from the necks of the lions that guard the New York Public Library (the statues had grown too fragile for decorations), the event elicited only a drowsy headline in the Daily News: "Lions' Wreaths No Mane Event." There is no laudatory carol called "O Christmas Wreath," and no call for a public wreath-lighting. The wreath's state of metaphysical uncertainty figures to end, however, thanks to Dana Wilner and Clare Weiss, two employees of the Department of Parks & Recreation. They're the curators of an art exhibit, now in its 23rd year, called "Wreath Interpretations." The idea, according to Wilner, is to "create an atmosphere of extending the idea of what could be a wreath."

So what could be a wreath? The history of the wreath is so tangled, so choked with symbolism, that the wreath has come to mean everything and nothing: a perfectly secular symbol of Christmas. Among the first people to embrace wreaths were ancient Persians, who wore diadems made of fabric and jewels—the wreath standing in for wealth and power. The Greeks awarded wreathlike headwear to early Olympic champions—the wreath, in that case, meaning victory. Germanic tribes used wreaths to anticipate the end of the long winter, a tradition which under Christianity morphed into the familiar advent wreath, with candles lit in the weeks leading to the Christmas. For the current wreath craze in America, we may thank the European settlers who, anticipating the future colonialism of Martha Stewart, brought wreath-making techniques to the New World.

In Manhattan, there is a steady supply of wreaths, from those laid at Ground Zero to the more festive lobby concoctions. (It is in the Midtown lobby, where it stands boldly yet inoffensively, that the wreath appears to have found its cultural niche.) "Wreath Interpretations," which drew entries from artists and botanists from around the five boroughs, can accommodate almost any conception of the wreath. A "Wreath Interpretations" wreath may offer a political statement or simply a paean to the Parks Department (a frequent theme). It may be constructed from organic or manmade materials. It may be round or square. It may have a hole in the center or not. In fact, because of the somewhat atrophied state of New York's wreath community—the organic wreath-makers, in particular, were largely silent this year—anyone who takes the time to create a wreath, no matter how quasi-definitional, will likely find it displayed in "Wreath Interpretations."


The wreaths are hung in a bright room on the third floor of the Arsenal Building, in the southeast corner of Central Park. A visitor who steps out of the elevator will find himself surrounded by wreath interpretations. They are constructed from materials like metal chains, a horseshoe crab shell, Japanese rice paper, found twigs, a bicycle wheel, papier-mâché, black pussy willow, metal strips from an old loom, subway passes, wood shavings, plastic hangers, recycled umbrella material, and natural birch wood armature. The other day, a visitor paused in front of a piece called Wreath-tirement, by George P. Choma. The artist had covered a wreath in wrapping paper and adorned it with images of upbeat retired persons, like those that appear in the ads for Type II diabetes medication. Adjacent to Wreath-retirement but resting at the opposite end of the wellness spectrum, was Deborah Jessamy's Death Takes a Holiday, a wreath featuring a skull wearing a Santa cap.

These two proved to be among the more straightforward wreath interpretations. On the other hand, there was Molly Sullivan's wreath—twigs interspersed with small bits of typewritten paper—which was said to symbolize the "challenge of expressing natural phenomena through the written word." Of all the artists to have grappled with this age-old dilemma, Sullivan was perhaps the first to do so with a wreath. The most overtly political wreath belonged to the artist Audrey Zeidman, whose Holiday Hurricane Party had children (represented by plastic dolls) celebrating Christmas in a rush of churning water—a vision of the gloomy holiday facing New Orleans. At one point last week, the visitors enjoying "Wreath Interpretations" were outnumbered by Parks Department employees using the gallery as a lunchroom. "That's my favorite," said one female employee, nodding at Untitled, a woolen wreath dedicated to New York's textile heritage. "Ooh, yes, isn't it …" She seemed on the verge of further interpretation, but, thus defeated, returned to her lunch.

While the meaning of the wreath had been expanded—you could consider "Wreath Interpretations" a kind of wreath avant-garde—it was a little hard to imagine the pieces hanging above the hearth. (An exception was Madeline A. Yanni's Winter Wonderland, an exuberant mix that included tiger branches, potpourri, grapevine, preserved juniper, and something called "mood moss.") Indeed, holding up wreaths for artistic inspection seems to defeat the purpose of wreath, which divines its virtue not only from its meaninglessness but from its modesty. In public, the eyes tend toward the Christmas tree, the manger scene, the menorah. When you're trying to survive the War on Christmas, it's best to work undercover.


Bryan Curtis is a Slate staff writer. You can e-mail him at curtisb@slate.com.


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Post by SonomaCat » Wed Dec 21, 2005 8:24 pm

Hitchens rocks ... he's not afraid to call it like he sees it and let the cards fall where they may.

And lest anyone reflexively say anything bad about him using the "L" word, it should be noted that he was/is one of the most vocal supporters of Bush's war in Iraq among the pundits and journalists.

http://www.slate.com/id/2132806/?nav=ais



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'93HonoluluCat
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Post by '93HonoluluCat » Thu Dec 22, 2005 2:40 am

Bay Area Cat wrote:Hitchens rocks ... he's not afraid to call it like he sees it and let the cards fall where they may.

And lest anyone reflexively say anything bad about him using the "L" word, it should be noted that he was/is one of the most vocal supporters of Bush's war in Iraq among the pundits and journalists.

http://www.slate.com/id/2132806/?nav=ais
So were a lot of Congressmen/women...but I wouldn't hesitate to use the "L" word to describe them. :wink:


Cory Miller
PolSci '93

"If you read the news coverage and it leaves you dispirited, demoralized, and depressed, that's not an accident. That's the goal." --Instapundit

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