Downing Street memo

[Cat Grad]

Get back to the Downing Street Memo; how come this memo was never posted



MUSLIMS .USMC Lt. Gen. Pitman's "Apology"

This Letter of Apology was written by Lieutenant General Chuck Pitman, US
Marine Corps, Retired:



"For good and ill", the Iraqi prisoner abuse mess will remain an issue. On
the one hand, right thinking Americans will abhor the stupidity of the
actions, while on the other hand, political glee will take control and
fashion this minor event into some modern day massacre.

I humbly offer my opinion here:

I am sorry that the last seven times we Americans took up arms and
sacrificed the blood of our youth, it was in the defense of Muslims (Bosnia,
Kosovo, Gulf War 1, Kuwait, etc.).

I am sorry that no such call for an apology upon the extremists came after
9/11.

I am sorry that all of the murderers on 9/11 were Islamic Arabs.

I am sorry that most Arabs and Muslims have to live in squalor under savage
dictatorships.

I am sorry that their leaders squander their wealth.

I am sorry that their governments breed hate for the US in their religious
schools, mosques, and government-controlled media.

I am sorry that Yassar Arafat was kicked out of every Arab country and
high-jacked the Palestinian "cause."

I am sorry that no other Arab country will take in or offer more than a
token amount of financial help to those same Palestinians.

I am sorry that the USA has to step in and be the biggest financial
supporter of poverty stricken Arabs while the insanely wealthy Arabs blame
the USA for all their problems.

I am sorry that our own left wing, our media, and our own brainwashed masses
do not understand any of this (from the misleading vocal elements of our
society, like radical professors, CNN and the NY TIMES).

I am sorry the United Nations scammed the poor people of Iraq out of the
"food for oil" money so they could get rich while the common folk suffered.

I am sorry that some Arab governments pay the families of homicide bombers
upon their death.

I am sorry that those same bombers are brainwashed thinking they will
receive 72 virgins in "paradise."

I am sorry that the homicide bombers think pregnant women, babies, children,
the elderly and other noncombatant civilians are legitimate targets.

I am sorry that our troops die to free more Arabs from the gang rape rooms
and the filling of mass graves of dissidents of their own making.

I am sorry that Muslim extremists have killed more Arabs than any other
group.

I am sorry that foreign trained terrorists are trying to seize control of
Iraq and return it to a terrorist state.

I am sorry we don't drop a few dozen Daisy cutters on Fallujah.

I am sorry every time terrorists hide they find a convenient "Holy Site."

I am sorry they didn't apologize for driving two jets into the World Trade
Center that collapsed and severely damaged Saint Nicholas Greek Orthodox
Church -- one of our Holy Sites.

I am sorry they didn't apologize for flight 93 and 175, the USS Cole, the
embassy bombings, the murders and beheadings of Nick Berg and Daniel Pearl,
etc....etc!

I am sorry Michael Moore is an American; he could feed a medium sized
village in Africa. America will get past this latest absurdity. We will
punish those responsible because that is what we do.


We hang out our dirty laundry for the entire world to see. We move on.
That's one of the reasons we are hated so much. We don't hide this stuff
like all those Arab countries that are now demanding an apology.


Deep down inside, when most Americans saw this reported in the news, we were
like -- so what? We lost hundreds, and made fun of a few prisoners. Sure, it
was wrong; sure, it dramatically hurts our cause; but, until captured we
were trying to kill these same prisoners. Now we're supposed to wring our
hands because a few were humiliated?


Our compassion is tempered with the vivid memories of our own people killed,
mutilated and burnt amongst a joyous crowd of celebrating Fallujahans.


If you want an apology from this American, you're going to have a long wait!

You have a better chance of finding those seventy-two virgins.

Chuck Pitman

Lieutenant General US Marine Corps (Retired)


Semper Fi

[Cat Grad]

Or why not post this?


Muslim Belief

This is a must read -- it's short but Very informative!
The Muslim religion is the fastest growing religion per capita in the United
States, especially in the minority races!

Allah or Jesus? by Rick Mathes


Last month I attended my annual training session that's required for
maintaining my state prison security clearance. During the training session
there was a presentation by three speakers representing the Roman Catholic,
Protestant and Muslim faiths, who explained each of their belief systems.

I was particularly interested in what the Islamic Imam had to say.

The Imam gave a great presentation of the basics of Islam, complete
with a video.


After the presentations, time was provided for questions and answers.


When it was my turn, I directed my question to the Imam and asked:
"Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that most Imams
and clerics of Islam have declared a holy jihad [Holy war] against the
infidels of the world. And, that by killing an infidel, which is a command
to all Muslims, they are assured of a place in heaven. If that's the case,
can you give me the definition of an infidel?"


There was no disagreement with my statements and without hesitation,
he replied, "Non-believers!"

I responded, "So, let me make sure I have this straight. All
followers of Allah have been commanded to kill everyone who is not of your
faith so they can go to Heaven. Is that correct?"

The _expression on his face changed from one of authority and command
to that of a little boy who had just gotten caught with his hand in the
cookie jar.

He sheepishly replied, "Yes."

I then stated, "Well, sir, I have a real problem trying to imagine
Pope John Paul commanding all Catholics to kill those of your faith or Dr.
Stanley ordering Protestants to do the same in order to go to Heaven!"

The Imam was speechless.

I continued, "I also have problem with being your friend when you and
your brother clerics are telling your followers to kill me. Let me ask you a
question. Would you rather have your Allah who tells you to kill me in order
to go to Heaven or my Jesus who tells me to love you because I am going to
Heaven and He wants you to be with me?"

You could have heard a pin drop as the Imam hung his head in shame.
Needless to say, the organizers and/or promoters of the 'Diversification'
training seminar were not happy with Rick's way of dealing with the I
slamic, Imam and exposing the truth about the Muslim's beliefs.


I think everyone in the US should be required to read this, but with
the liberal justice system, liberal media, and the ACLU, there is no way
this will be widely publicized.



This is a true story and the author, Rick Mathes, is a well-known
leader in prison ministry.

[Grizlaw]

Cat Grad -- a couple questions regarding your memo on the violent nature of Islam.

First -- after 9/11, I spent a little bit of time trying to educate myself about Islam, but I will confess that I do not know a lot about the religion myself. However, on many occasions, President Bush and his supporters have made a point of telling us that he considers Islam to be a peaceful faith, and that he considers the sentiments expressed in the memo you posted to be the views of "extremists" within the Islamic faith.

The inconsistency between that sentiment and the one expressed in your post leads me to believe that one of the following must be true:

1. either President Bush is lying to us, and he actually does consider Islam to be a violent religion, or

2. he's simply wrong and mis-informed about the true nature of Islam, or,

3. your memo is wrong.

Which of the above do you think is true?

--GL

[Cat Grad]

I think all three are inconsistent and rather simplistic given the nature of the religion's "countries" or lack thereof. My niece was married to the Kuwaiti Oil Minister's son during the first Gulf War; his family is Pakistani. Their "countries" are similar to our states with few exceptions. The Muslims do not place their followers into a nationality, but we attempt to identify them according to country of origin. We'd be better served to study our Native American Tribes--but that's right, we'll apply Western European boundaries and standards to cultures we know virtually nothing about. How much luck is Europe having with the union today It's a decent analogy and the same players that will bring it down are the same ones that have caused most of Europe's misery since the recording of social events.

[Grizlaw]

I think all three are inconsistent and rather simplistic given the nature of the religion's "countries" or lack thereof. My niece was married to the Kuwaiti Oil Minister's son during the first Gulf War; his family is Pakistani. Their "countries" are similar to our states with few exceptions. The Muslims do not place their followers into a nationality, but we attempt to identify them according to country of origin. We'd be better served to study our Native American Tribes--but that's right, we'll apply Western European boundaries and standards to cultures we know virtually nothing about. How much luck is Europe having with the union today It's a decent analogy and the same players that will bring it down are the same ones that have caused most of Europe's misery since the recording of social events.

That was exactly the point I was trying to get out of you with my questions. The questions I asked were black-and-white, and that was intentional.

My point is, the piece you posted paints Islam as a whole as being a very violent religion. I don't think that is the case at all -- I think it is conceivable that a substantial number of Muslims might hold the views that your piece expressed; perhaps even a substantial enough minority that they can't fairly be called "extremists," but certainly not the majority. Assuming the piece you posted is a true story, it still only represents the views of one cleric, and to assume that he speaks for all Muslims would not be fair.

[Cat Grad]

No it's not fair; however, that is the element we're forced to deal with and it's going to take more time than our society is willing to invest--but we're handling their hate on their turf instead of ours. I hope you can appreciate that fact.

[mquast53000]

My point is, the piece you posted paints Islam as a whole as being a very violent religion. I don't think that is the case at all -- I think it is conceivable that a substantial number of Muslims might hold the views that your piece expressed; perhaps even a substantial enough minority that they can't fairly be called "extremists," but certainly not the majority. Assuming the piece you posted is a true story, it still only represents the views of one cleric, and to assume that he speaks for all Muslims would not be fair.

Read this Grizlaw: http://www.studytoanswer.net/myths_ch7.html#ch7-1

[Grizlaw]

Cat Grad: I do appreciate that fact; however, the reality is that "they" live on our turf too.

I think part of my concern stems from where I live (I don't know where you are; are you still in Montana or do you live in a major metro area as well?) Where I live, I deal with people of the Islamic faith every day: I work with them, I went to school with them (at NYU, not at UM), and I am good friends with some of them. The Muslims I know personally are not violent people; they don't hate the U.S., they don't hate "infidels," and they think Osama is insane, just like we do. By allowing Islam as a whole to be painted as a violent religion, it paints the people I'm talking about too.

Quast: I will read your piece later; it's too long for me to do it right now. Having glanced at it, though, it looks similar to pieces that I read shortly after 9/11, when I was trying to educate myself about Islam and form my opinion about the events (I read several pieces that paint Islam as a violent religion, and several that paint the opposite picture -- and as I said earlier, I'm still not entirely convinced that either view is wholly true.)

EDIT: Also, Quast, I'll pose the same question to you that I posed to Cat Grad earlier. Assuming that the point of the piece you posted is that Islam is a violent religion, does that mean President Bush is wrong or lying to us when he says that Islam is a peaceful religion?

[mquast53000]

Under Islamic (shari'a) law, Muslim men who decide to adopt another belief and refuse to return to Islam -- usually within a limited period of time -- may be put to death.

It remains a contentious point in Islam, but countries where people have been accused or convicted of apostasy include Sudan, Iran, Saudi Arabia and Mauritania.

In 2002, a shari'a-based penal code was introduced in a Malaysian state controlled by an Islamist party. It said any Muslim who converted to another faith had three days to repent, failing which he faced having his property forfeited and being sentenced to death.

The criminal code of Mauritania similarly provides for a three day period of reflection and repentance for any Muslim guilty of apostasy "whether by word or action." "If he does not repent within this time limit, he is to be condemned to death as an apostate and his property will be confiscated by the Treasury."

Although the Koran says "there is no compulsion in religion" (sura 2:256), the Islamic canonical tradition called the Hadith contains references to execution for apostasy, including one in which Mohammed commands, "Any [Muslim] person who has changed his religion, kill him."

http://www.cnsnews.com/ForeignBureaus/a ... 0802b.html

Grizlaw this is the type of behavior that makes me a uneasy. I know that not all Muslims are evil, but these extremists are being found even in the US (Cali has arrested 5 in the last 2 days). You don't hear (in recent history-we don't need a history lesson here) Christians, Jews and other religions calling for the death of non-believers, so that is what makes people to trust Muslims. Hey I know that most Muslims don't want to hurt Americans, but there sure the hell are a bunch that would love nothing more then to see me and my family get killed simply for being Christian Westerners. Islamic beliefs seem to be easily interpreted by Muslim followers for both peace and violence. Peaceful Muslims are not the ones that concern me or the US Government, it is the violent ones that makes all of us all a little worried.

[Grizlaw]

Peaceful Muslims are not the ones that concern me or the US Government, it is the violent ones that makes all of us all a little worried.

I know what you're saying, Quast. I always get a little concerned when I hear the "Muslims are evil / Islam is a violent religion" sentiment being expressed, though, even if the speaker does not mean to paint *all* Muslims. The thing is, statements like that can easily lead to hatred of the entire religion unless there is a little voice in the back of your head telling you that not all Muslims are evil. I guess that's why I spoke up; I'm trying to be that little voice.

As for the quote you posted -- that is disturbing, although I am always a little cautious when interpreting quotes from the Koran or any holy book without more context. If someone with little knowledge of Christianity or Judiasm were to read the Book of Leviticus, they might be led to conclude that mainstream Christians and Jews believe that a person who touches the skin of a pig should be put to death, too.

[mquast53000]

Grizlaw it is not solely the literature that is the cause for concern. The concern steams from the actions being carried out. You don’t hear of Jews and Christians killing those that have touch the skin of the pig, but you do hear about Muslims killings non-Muslims or “infidels” in the name of their religion. I think most people’s concern are not from the Koran itself, but rather from those that have acted (suicide bombings, stoning, ect.) on behalf of the Koran’s writings.

[jagur1]

History is full of examples of Christians Killing in the name of God.

[mquast53000]

History is full of examples of Christians Killing in the name of God.

I know, there is not argument with that- I mentioned that in an earlier post.

in recent history-we don't need a history lesson here

We are talking about the current attacks and killings by Muslim extremists.

[Grizlaw]

I think the difference, though, has less to do with the religions themselves and more to do with how they are followed in different parts of the world. The reality is that the Middle East, with the exception of Israel, is made up largely of third world countries, and I think the fact that things are less civilized in that part of the world has more to do with the violence in the name of religion than the religion itself does.

As proof of this, I'll offer the following: 1) you don't hear of many American Muslims committing acts of violence in the name of their religion (and by "American Muslims," I mean Muslims who were *raised* in this country, as opposed to people who spent their formative years in the Middle East before coming here), and 2) throughout history, at times when Europe was also less civilized, we also saw cases of Christians killing in the name of religion.

From this, I would conclude that people in less civilized cultures are more apt to do evil things in the name of religion than people in more civilized cultures, regardless of what religion it is that they claim to be acting in the name of. The fact that you don't hear about Christians killing in the name of their religion does not necessarily mean the religion itself is more peaceful; it simply means those who currently practice it are, on average, more civilized.

[mquast53000]

I think the difference, though, has less to do with the religions themselves and more to do with how they are followed in different parts of the world. The reality is that the Middle East, with the exception of Israel, is made up largely of third world countries, and I think the fact that things are less civilized in that part of the world has more to do with the violence in the name of religion than the religion itself does.

Grizlaw with your argument how would you explain a rich doctor in the US giving money to fund terrorist organizations? or the American Taliban fighter? or a 2nd generation American wanting to go to a terrorist camp? Why are there no attacks from our neighbor Mexico? The are a poverty stricken country (Christianity is their religion of choice). I understand your argument, but why are the poverty-stricken countries making attacks on foreign countries all Muslim dominated countries? Do you really believe that there is no correlation?

Grizlaw- There are no longer 3rd world countries, they are now considered poverty stricken countries. We no longer categorize countries by 1st, 2nd & 3rd. Not sure why, but you are not suppose to anymore (we are PC on this forum).

[SonomaCat]

Why are there no attacks from our neighbor Mexico? The are a poverty stricken country (Christianity is their religion of choice).

Well, I did get a beer bottle thrown at my head by a passing car late at night when I was in Cabo a few weeks ago ... and I'm pretty sure the guy didn't even know that I was the guy who posts as BAC. I know that's not exactly a terrorist attack, but there is definitely some anti-American sentiment down south, and at least a little violence behind it.

But you're right -- there is no terrorism coming at us from south of the border, and it is an interesting point to contrast Mexico and the Middle East along those lines.

[Grizlaw]

But you're right -- there is no terrorism coming at us from south of the border, and it is an interesting point to contrast Mexico and the Middle East along those lines.

True, although who would Mexicans attack in the name of religion --us? This country is predominantly Christian too, right?

As for the fact that there are some militant Muslims in this country, my only response is that if I went to certain parts of this country, I could probably find isolated cases of Christians committing acts of violence against people on religious grounds, too (against Muslims since 9/11, and against Jews for a lot of our history). There are going to be isolated cases of that everywhere, but largely I think you'd have to agree with my greater point, which is that, in general, you don't see mainstream Muslims in this country committing the types of atrocities that go on in the Middle East. From that I would still conclude that the violence that goes on in the Middle East is more a product of the environment there than of Islam itself.

FINALLY -- I hate to keep coming back to this, but it never really got answered, so I'll ask the question once more. Since you're still arguing that Islam is inherently a violent religion, does that mean President Bush was wrong when he told us it is a peaceful religion, or was he lying to us?

EDIT: Just to be clear, I was responding primarily to Quast with this post; I quoted BAC but he was just re-stating Quast's point.

[Cat Grad]

Obviously, a great deal gets lost in translation. Unless we spend more time in a religious studies group/class we're just going to have to take someones word that scripture (for any and all religions) is the gospel I would be hard pressed to find any religion that preaches violence but we can find more than a few passages in any version of our Bible and many preachers who advocate the use of force.

And no Grizlaw, I'm no longer in Georgia where I also lived and worked with Muslims for nearly 30 years. Back in Montana and the hotbed of intolerance, survivalism, separatism, etc. You know, where we even hate Californians

[wbtfg]

It looks like there is a congressional hearing on this issue this afternoon.

Democratic hearing on
Downing Street Memo/Minutes
and Pre-war intelligence

On Thursday June 16, 2005, from 2:30 p.m. to 4:30 p.m. in Room HC-9 ofthe U.S. Capitol, Rep. John Conyers, Jr., Ranking Member of the House Judiciary Committee, and other Congress Members will hold a hearing on the Downing Street Minutes and related evidence of efforts to cook the books on pre-war intelligence.

The DNC will serve as an overflow room, so people can still go there: The Wasserman Room at 430 S Capitol St. SE. After the hearing, Congressman Conyers will personally deliver his letter to the President demanding answers about the path to war, which has been signed by over 100 members of Congress and well over half a million American citizens. There will also be a rally at 5:00pm in Lafayette Square Park, in front of the White House. If you can make it, please attend!

This will be carried live on C-SPAN 3.

[SonomaCat]

I love articles like this. They take all of that voluminous detail and sifts out only the important parts (with links), and then presents it (from my perspective) fairly and without either party's extremist bias.

http://slate.com/id/2120886/