VERY BAD NEWS! Brandon Miller accused of murder

whitetrashgriz · Post by **whitetrashgriz** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 10:05 pm

one thing has bothered me in this whole thread. well, not really, but there is one in particular that has actually bothered me for a long time. i will use catmom as an example, but i don't know her, and i am in no way trying to discredit her or take any personal jabs. but from a local guy, who grew up playing basketball, and went to msu, and hung out with a majority of football and basketball, here is my opinion. we are all cat fans here. we love to support these kids on the field or court, and wish them the best off of campus. however, there are many people that go one step farther, and try to be best friends with all of these athletes. they put these players on pedastals, as if they are celebrities. i could be way off here, but to me it seems a little weird that a family that has no relationship ties to an msu athlete, feels the need to hang out with them, and have them in their homes. maybe not a bad thing, but to me seems a little different. and as a pretty new father, i can't imagine that in 10 or 15 years when i have kids in highschool, and my wife and i will be in our 30's and forties that we will be hanging out with kids barely older than my own children! and as a man in his forties, i would think people would ge a weird vibe if i was hanging out with 19 year old girls on the basketball team! all that being said, here's where there is a major communication flaw. athletes are almost always very kind, softspoken, and polite to adult fans, boosters, teachers, and anyone else older in the community. but i have personally seen many athletes that were flat out asses come through our program, and i knew it, their temamates knew it, as well as everyone else that is our age. yet these older parents and fans only see these kids being respectful and polite. after the games, these kids visit with the fans, and are always nothing but great. but what about an hour later when they are at the parties with other COLLEGE KIDS! this is where kids are more comfortable, and this is where you can see a person for how he really is. again, i don't know catmom, and i'm not trying to come down on her, but i have seen this every year, with many, many athletes. they are not all bad, there are many really good people, but we are kidding ourselves if we assume that because they are nice to aunt sally and polite to grandma sue, that they are outstanding young men and women all the time.

GOKATS · Post by **GOKATS** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 10:12 pm

[This is just the topping on the cake with recuiting bad kids at MSU......JC transfers, shady characters. Miller was a problem from the day he arrived on campus...wouldn't listen to anyone, argued with coaches, pain in the ass to teammates.........MSU better wake up soon or all recruits and maybe some more returners will leave. Would you send your son to play at a college in which a murder weapon was found in one of the current players locker? What is Miller even allowed on campus, or at least in the athletic complex? You have to be ****** me! By the way, how well did the seniors this year do in the classroom and how many received degrees? A joke! I feel REAL sorry for the new coaching staff......this problem was created by others.[/quote]

Kiss off grizfreak! Sorry, I hate punks!

4everacatfan · Post by **4everacatfan** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 10:41 pm

CatGrad00 wrote: This is just the topping on the cake with recuiting bad kids at MSU......JC transfers, shady characters. Miller was a problem from the day he arrived on campus...wouldn't listen to anyone, argued with coaches, pain in the ass to teammates.........MSU better wake up soon or all recruits and maybe some more returners will leave. Would you send your son to play at a college in which a murder weapon was found in one of the current players locker? What is Miller even allowed on campus, or at least in the athletic complex? You have to be ****** me! By the way, how well did the seniors this year do in the classroom and how many received degrees? A joke! I feel REAL sorry for the new coaching staff......this problem was created by others.

This is the past MSU basketball is headed in new direction. Coach Huse and his staff are working hard on recruiting quality kids and working with the players from last years team that want to return to the top. I see nothing but a bright future ahead for the mens basketball team

Give the new coaching staff and team a chance to prove it too you

Bobcat4Ever · Post by **Bobcat4Ever** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 11:05 pm

CatGrad00 wrote:By the way, how well did the seniors this year do in the classroom and how many received degrees? A joke!

I cannot tell you that, but none of the seniors made the Big Sky all-academic team and only two of the players (kudos to Durr and Morris) did.

Now, if we should be supporting good students who are athletes, then this is the best reason EVER to go in person -- put some butts in the seats! -- and still get our basketball fix and support the Bobcat women's basketball team who put every single active player on the Big Sky all-academic team. Do they not deserve our support?

bozbobcat · Post by **bozbobcat** » Sat Jul 01, 2006 12:21 am

Bobcat4Ever wrote:
CatGrad00 wrote:By the way, how well did the seniors this year do in the classroom and how many received degrees? A joke!
I cannot tell you that, but none of the seniors made the Big Sky all-academic team and only two of the players (kudos to Durr and Morris) did.

Now, if we should be supporting good students who are athletes, then this is the best reason EVER to go in person -- put some butts in the seats! -- and still get our basketball fix and support the Bobcat women's basketball team who put every single active player on the Big Sky all-academic team. Do they not deserve our support?

I hope that a re-emphasis is placed on academics soon for the men's basketball team and maybe more than 2 will soon be on the all-Academic team. And also, it would be nice if more people supported the ladies, who are wonderful students and wonderful people. But there's no doubt in my mind that most of the men's team is the same way.

gtapp · Post by **gtapp** » Sat Jul 01, 2006 9:41 am

It looks like Gamble will hire a consulting group to look at our recruiting practices amoung other things. I just don't know what you can do, especially with our recruiting budget. We don't have the budget to get psycological evaluations and run tests on these kids. The coaches talk to the kids and their coaches and parents and are left with just so much data to go on. One of the intentions of athletic scholarships (or so I thought) was to give an education opportunity to someone who may not have the financial means to go to college. If you asked Mike Kramer or Mick Durham if they intentionally recruited a kid who had questionable character do you think they would answer "sometimes yes"? I don't think that happens. Kramer in particular has demonstrated very little tolerance of bad behavior and has suspended or removed players who make mistakes (Lebrum included). When there are about 90 players on the football team I just don't know how you can ensure all of them behave well all of the time especially when they are of that age.

ZifCat52 · Post by **ZifCat52** » Sat Jul 01, 2006 10:39 am

There are many emotions running through everyone's head about this situation. Those of us who have talked to John and Branden and have seen respect and true interest in how you are doing can't understand how they could make decision to do what it appears they did. We are trying to look at why this thing could happen.

Our natural inclination is to try to place blame somewhere. Some say the coaches are to blame for recruiting these kids, yet I believe our coaches (Mick and Mike in this case, but the others as well) do a very good job of trying to assess the student athlete's coachability, ability to make it in school, and personality traits. The coaches are trying to do what we want ... win games and still have the kids gradute. As the pressures from us to win mount, it forces them to try to find the athletes that will make our teams competitive.

In that process, we occaisonally get kids who cross the line and don't do as they appeared when being recruited. They sometimes change from year to year as well, are easier to work with one year and not the next. This is in spite of the best efforts to manage their behavior while the are on campus. Both Mick and Mike made extensive efforts to discipline Branden and John, in spite of those efforts, the kids ended up being dismissed form the teams. The fact that both of them stayed in the community and even tried to go back to school indicates they recognized the good things Bozeman has to offer and that they still wanted to be part of it. Both of them still attended games even after they were dismissed.

The point is, everyone associated with MSU athletics, coaches, players, adminstrators, and fans, has a role in causing this type of thing to happen and we all have an obligation to help make it better. That won't happen if we try to blame what happened on a particular coach or admisinstrator, or even the players themselves. The approach President Gamble is taking to assess the overall process of recruiting is a good start. We all create the situation that contributed to the pressures that the coaches and student athletes face and we can all contribute to making the process better. But the cause is never as simple as its the coaches' fault.

Let's all support our former student athletes in their time of need, even if we can't understand why they even thought about doing something so horrible. Let's support the coaches and adminstrators, current and past, they are all taking this as hard as any of us and want to do the best thing for everyone.

Post by **SonomaCat** » Sat Jul 01, 2006 12:19 pm

whitetrashgriz wrote:i could be way off here, but to me it seems a little weird that a family that has no relationship ties to an msu athlete, feels the need to hang out with them, and have them in their homes. maybe not a bad thing, but to me seems a little different. and as a pretty new father, i can't imagine that in 10 or 15 years when i have kids in highschool, and my wife and i will be in our 30's and forties that we will be hanging out with kids barely older than my own children! and as a man in his forties, i would think people would ge a weird vibe if i was hanging out with 19 year old girls on the basketball team!

I am not going to disagree with you, but also keep in mind the comparable situations of host parents of exchange students, or even people who hang have their own kid's friends over for dinner and include them as part of their family.

It may be a celebrity thing as you suggest, but it may also be more of a "family away from home" situation. I think the latter should be strongly encouraged, but I agree the the former can be pathetic.

catmom · Post by **catmom** » Sat Jul 01, 2006 4:35 pm

Wow. In regards to what Whitetrashgriz commented, no good deed goes unpunished. Here is the explanition to what I do.

When I was in college at MSU years ago, the athletic program used to have "host families". I had 3 close friends that were on the basketball team. I heard nothing but great things about this program and how nice it was to get a "real meal" sometimes. Then the school (msu) decided quite a few years back to discontinue the practice. I am guess the reason was they would get more money from the boosters if they didn't have to feed these kids and to prevent some of the possiblities of inappropriate thing that were happening on other big universities(ie. cars, money, watches etc.).

I started out giving goodie bags to the basketball team (this was quite a few years ago). Then about a year later I found out that one of the players birthday was in a few days and told him to invite a few of his friends over to have a birthday dinner. I met some wonderful young men and woman athletes that day that are still close to me and my family to this day. It all snowballed to having kids on the girls and boys basketball team, football team and volleyball team. I have very close relationships to these kids including there families. I hear about car problems, relationship problems and how do I get this stain out of my cloths problems. I deeply love some of these kids and the fact that you might think that it is something other than being there when they need an adult to talk to is just sad. The appreciation that I have recieved from the families of the kids I have had has been heartwarming. The kids that I have had call me for holidays, my birthday and mothers day. We have also hooked up with some of them when we go to the cities where they now live. One of my kids met me in his hometown when I went to visit that city (he flew cross country to show me around and to meet his family). So, if you think that I don't know these kids you are very mistaken (I know about the warts and all). I also know that nobody is perfect.

In regards to Gokatz question on who graduated. JaRon and Taylor have both got there degrees. Big Al is going to finish up in May and Marvin I don't know (not that close to him). I do know that he just got back from playing ball in China. He is in DC.

Thank you to Bay Area Cat for his kind words. Yes, I am what you would call a home away from home. I try to get the kids that will not be asked over like the "all stars" that are asked all the time. I don't care about color either.

If you think that I don't know what goes on in college you are way off. I was once a college student. I was friends with lots of the athletes and it has not changed much since I was there.

Cat Grad · Post by **Cat Grad** » Sat Jul 01, 2006 5:27 pm

catmom, thank you so much for all you do for the kids we're able to bring into the Bozo community. The family connection that used to get lost when we brought outstanding athletes into the Valley definitely will be a thing of the past with folks such as ya'll. We all do our best to teach kids the difference between right and wrong, how to make wise choices and to control the temper versus it controlling you. I also appreciate your emphasis on "innocent until proven guilty" that appears lacking in some--even in here.

I want the facts presented and yes, I'll probably pass judgement. But I spent many years in public education and I've never been able to look at a kid and tell you what they'd become after they left my classroom, court or field. I can tell you that each and every kid is capable of doing just about any amount of good conceivable and they are also capable of some of the most disheartening acts conceivable. So are soldiers, many times the same age as our student-athlete. It's human nature and please don't quit what ya'll do for our kids. Again, thank you from an older Bobcat.

msu1fan · Post by **msu1fan** » Sat Jul 01, 2006 5:49 pm

as a person who knew Brandon and And Freak personaly, all this is very surpising to me and shocks me. i saw talked to Brandon right around the same time all this happened and hearing what he is acused of takes me shocks me and sadens me. i feel bad for anyone who knew Jason, Freak or brandon. they were just involed with dumb things including drugs. i know that Brandon isn't a bad guy at all he's just making bad choices and is just lost in his life right now. and i also personaly know Aaron Rich, having him involved in this is just stupid. cuz he doesn't even know Brandon or Freak and he was in Helena when all this happened so he has nothing to do with any of this. so get him out of ur mind when thinking of who was involed in this whole thing.

To Brandon, Freak, And Jason i just wish that none of u would of got involed with Drugs and ****** like that.

IrishKitty23 · Post by **IrishKitty23** » Sat Jul 01, 2006 5:55 pm

People, yes I know it is a huge shock to all of us about what happened last week, but I just have a few words of my own to add to yours.
Coming from my position, knowing and being friends with both parties, I ask of you to stop talking about it. I am sick to my stomach from reading the news and even more disgusted by all of your gossip on these message boards. Yes, it is dealing with FORMER msu athletles, but we are talking about a man who was murdered. Leave him at peace and let the law deal with the situation.
One more thing, I don't remember who wrote about the coaching and needing more discipline to regulate the players, the men are adults who will do what they want, when they want. And also, Branden didn't have problems with the law until after he had been kicked off the team.
I am not trying to be rude, but I just can't stand it anymore.

IrishKitty23 · Post by **IrishKitty23** » Sat Jul 01, 2006 6:03 pm

To catmom,
Thank you for remembering the other athletes on the basketball team that did not get kicked off and that did graduate and accomplish something while being here at MSU.
At least someone here recognizes that.

gtapp · Post by **gtapp** » Sat Jul 01, 2006 6:16 pm

catmom wrote:Wow. In regards to what Whitetrashgriz commented, no good deed goes unpunished. Here is the explanition to what I do.

When I was in college at MSU years ago, the athletic program used to have "host families". I had 3 close friends that were on the basketball team. I heard nothing but great things about this program and how nice it was to get a "real meal" sometimes. Then the school (msu) decided quite a few years back to discontinue the practice. I am guess the reason was they would get more money from the boosters if they didn't have to feed these kids and to prevent some of the possiblities of inappropriate thing that were happening on other big universities(ie. cars, money, watches etc.).

I started out giving goodie bags to the basketball team (this was quite a few years ago). Then about a year later I found out that one of the players birthday was in a few days and told him to invite a few of his friends over to have a birthday dinner. I met some wonderful young men and woman athletes that day that are still close to me and my family to this day. It all snowballed to having kids on the girls and boys basketball team, football team and volleyball team. I have very close relationships to these kids including there families. I hear about car problems, relationship problems and how do I get this stain out of my cloths problems. I deeply love some of these kids and the fact that you might think that it is something other than being there when they need an adult to talk to is just sad. The appreciation that I have recieved from the families of the kids I have had has been heartwarming. The kids that I have had call me for holidays, my birthday and mothers day. We have also hooked up with some of them when we go to the cities where they now live. One of my kids met me in his hometown when I went to visit that city (he flew cross country to show me around and to meet his family). So, if you think that I don't know these kids you are very mistaken (I know about the warts and all). I also know that nobody is perfect.

In regards to Gokatz question on who graduated. JaRon and Taylor have both got there degrees. Big Al is going to finish up in May and Marvin I don't know (not that close to him). I do know that he just got back from playing ball in China. He is in DC.

Thank you to Bay Area Cat for his kind words. Yes, I am what you would call a home away from home. I try to get the kids that will not be asked over like the "all stars" that are asked all the time. I don't care about color either.

If you think that I don't know what goes on in college you are way off. I was once a college student. I was friends with lots of the athletes and it has not changed much since I was there.

I hope that you have cleared all of this with the compliance dept! I tried to take one of the football players out to dinner one time because I was friends with his familty here in Minneapolis and they had to call the BSC office for permission. You are not allowed to buy them a dinner (I don't know if home cooking counts) unless you had a relationship prior to their coming to school at MSU. That is probably why the athletic dept stopped the practice. I am not saying what you are doing is against NCAA rules but I would check. If it is it could cost us scholarships down the road.

Post by **SonomaCat** » Sat Jul 01, 2006 6:20 pm

There was a flyer in the season ticket package I just received that outlined what was and was not acceptable from any booster (which includes all season ticket holders in addition to the boosters who actually contribute to the ASA). I believe the rules it outlined noted that meals in the home were fine (even catered meals in the home), but that meals in a restaurant fell under the more harsh restrictions.

I know the NCAA has had to deal with some obvious cases of abuse in the past, but this level of micromanaging does seem absurd. We can't buy a kid a car ... fair enough. But we could get MSU in trouble for buying them a burger? Silly. But that's the world in which we live, so we better follow the rules perfectly.

catmom · Post by **catmom** » Sat Jul 01, 2006 6:54 pm

Bay Area Cat wrote:There was a flyer in the season ticket package I just received that outlined what was and was not acceptable from any booster (which includes all season ticket holders in addition to the boosters who actually contribute to the ASA). I believe the rules it outlined noted that meals in the home were fine (even catered meals in the home), but that meals in a restaurant fell under the more harsh restrictions.

I know the NCAA has had to deal with some obvious cases of abuse in the past, but this level of micromanaging does seem absurd. We can't buy a kid a car ... fair enough. But we could get MSU in trouble for buying them a burger? Silly. But that's the world in which we live, so we better follow the rules perfectly.

That is right, you cannot purchase them a meal out side of the home. You also cannot purchase them any gifts. I have had people come up to me at a restaurant and ask if they could buy the kids dinner. Then I inform them that they cannot it is against the rules. I told them that I was not able to also.

The NCAA states that an athlete should not get special treatment. On that note, I can tell you that "regular" students have had the pleasue of eating my homemade brownies. The last thing that I would ever do is cause harm to the program. As I keep threathing my children with getting a tattoo on my butt that reads "bobcat born, bobcat breed, going to be a bobcat til the day I'm dead". That would be great to show the grandkids!!

On a more serious note. Most of the students at the college have family members that are close at hand (or can afford to come if there is anything the kid needs). Most of the student athletes come from some great distance and a good portion of their families cannot ever come to see them in a game let alone come and see them on any regular basis. I wish people would think about that when people question why I do what I do.

whitetrashgriz · Post by **whitetrashgriz** » Sat Jul 01, 2006 9:06 pm

catmom wrote:
Bay Area Cat wrote:There was a flyer in the season ticket package I just received that outlined what was and was not acceptable from any booster (which includes all season ticket holders in addition to the boosters who actually contribute to the ASA). I believe the rules it outlined noted that meals in the home were fine (even catered meals in the home), but that meals in a restaurant fell under the more harsh restrictions.

I know the NCAA has had to deal with some obvious cases of abuse in the past, but this level of micromanaging does seem absurd. We can't buy a kid a car ... fair enough. But we could get MSU in trouble for buying them a burger? Silly. But that's the world in which we live, so we better follow the rules perfectly.
That is right, you cannot purchase them a meal out side of the home. You also cannot purchase them any gifts. I have had people come up to me at a restaurant and ask if they could buy the kids dinner. Then I inform them that they cannot it is against the rules. I told them that I was not able to also.

The NCAA states that an athlete should not get special treatment. On that note, I can tell you that "regular" students have had the pleasue of eating my homemade brownies. The last thing that I would ever do is cause harm to the program. As I keep threathing my children with getting a tattoo on my butt that reads "bobcat born, bobcat breed, going to be a bobcat til the day I'm dead". That would be great to show the grandkids!!

On a more serious note. Most of the students at the college have family members that are close at hand (or can afford to come if there is anything the kid needs). Most of the student athletes come from some great distance and a good portion of their families cannot ever come to see them in a game let alone come and see them on any regular basis. I wish people would think about that when people question why I do what I do.

catmom, like i said, my comments were not meant to offend. just one of the things that during my college years i thought were funny. i'm not saying that you are doing anything wrong. but to me personally, because i was friends with many of the same people i'm sure you were in contact with, i find it a little weird because i saw how my friends acted and the way that they talked in the presence of these "elders", (again i don't know you!), and then also heard what they said about these people afterwards. many of these kids are very polite, and would never say anything to hurt anyones feelings. but i know for a fact that there are certain people out there that from their perspective think they are best friends with our student athletes, but from the athletes perspective, sometimes are weirded out. again, don't mean to offend, and i'm sorry for you as your loss was obviously greater as you knew these guys. again, i apologize.

couloir41 · Post by **couloir41** » Sat Jul 01, 2006 10:00 pm

the general trend is that there is some responsibility to be taken on by the university...that is bogus...

i'm with the prosecutor (marty lambert) on this one...these are men who made bad decisions...and now...if they are guilty they are gonna pay...it is as simple as that...

new twist...it may not be drug related...

whitetrashgriz · Post by **whitetrashgriz** » Sun Jul 02, 2006 2:04 am

couloir41 wrote:the general trend is that there is some responsibility to be taken on by the university...that is bogus...

i'm with the prosecutor (marty lambert) on this one...these are men who made bad decisions...and now...if they are guilty they are gonna pay...it is as simple as that...

new twist...it may not be drug related...

you know something we dont couloir? everything that i have ever known about these guys was drug related. not saying that you are wrong, but it would amaze me that guys who were involved in drugs (which i know for a fact) would be involved in something this serious, and it wouldn't have to do with drugs. guess only time will tell.

CatGrad00 · Post by **CatGrad00** » Sun Jul 02, 2006 6:54 pm

whitetrashgriz wrote:one thing has bothered me in this whole thread. well, not really, but there is one in particular that has actually bothered me for a long time. i will use catmom as an example, but i don't know her, and i am in no way trying to discredit her or take any personal jabs. but from a local guy, who grew up playing basketball, and went to msu, and hung out with a majority of football and basketball, here is my opinion. we are all cat fans here. we love to support these kids on the field or court, and wish them the best off of campus. however, there are many people that go one step farther, and try to be best friends with all of these athletes. they put these players on pedastals, as if they are celebrities. i could be way off here, but to me it seems a little weird that a family that has no relationship ties to an msu athlete, feels the need to hang out with them, and have them in their homes. maybe not a bad thing, but to me seems a little different. and as a pretty new father, i can't imagine that in 10 or 15 years when i have kids in highschool, and my wife and i will be in our 30's and forties that we will be hanging out with kids barely older than my own children! and as a man in his forties, i would think people would ge a weird vibe if i was hanging out with 19 year old girls on the basketball team! all that being said, here's where there is a major communication flaw. athletes are almost always very kind, softspoken, and polite to adult fans, boosters, teachers, and anyone else older in the community. but i have personally seen many athletes that were flat out asses come through our program, and i knew it, their temamates knew it, as well as everyone else that is our age. yet these older parents and fans only see these kids being respectful and polite. after the games, these kids visit with the fans, and are always nothing but great. but what about an hour later when they are at the parties with other COLLEGE KIDS! this is where kids are more comfortable, and this is where you can see a person for how he really is. again, i don't know catmom, and i'm not trying to come down on her, but i have seen this every year, with many, many athletes. they are not all bad, there are many really good people, but we are kidding ourselves if we assume that because they are nice to aunt sally and polite to grandma sue, that they are outstanding young men and women all the time.

GREAT POINT....alittle weird I think!

VERY BAD NEWS! Brandon Miller accused of murder

reply to all you talking about the killing

one more thing