Tsunami

velochat · Post by **velochat** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 10:16 am

I consider nationalism to be a decidedly negative thing. We're all people. If you meet someone from another country, you will probably like them. Their leaders will probably be corrupt, just like yours. I heard a great line recently (paraphrased, as I don't remember the exact wording):

"The West dominates the world, not because of it's superior ideas, but because of it's superior methods of organized violence." "We", collectively, have a lot of explaining to do for past empire building (lack of respect for other cultures).

It's interesting that India doesn't want our help, and would prefer we didn't help Sri Lanka, either, even if there's desperate need. It's nice to see that Indonesia is willing in such extreme circumstances to allow the "west" to help it's people. After the immediate emergency, we must provide resources for the people to rebuild their communities themselves, rather than do it for them. We must be humble and respectful to be respected.

It's great to see us and the rest of world responding so positively to this catastrophe; let's not forget all of the other suffering people in the world, nor fail to respect them. Humility.

iaafan · Post by **iaafan** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 11:28 am

Excellent post Velo!!

Lets also not forget the United States has blatantly performed some treacherous deeds on its own people (namely the Native Americans, slave trade), thus forever losing their trust. In our country's defense we do teach our children of these things in our public schools.

It's good that we, as a people, recognize this and attempt to proceed in a way that shows we've learned from that and are willing to continue to learn from the actions (resentment) of other nations before unwittingly causing other problems for ourselves.

Are we doing so governmentally? I don't know, but I'd like to think that as a people (as taxpayers) that is the standard that we hold those in office to.

Beaker · Post by **Beaker** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 2:51 pm

However, since our enemy is now hard to really pin down and label (terrorism), and as our traditional enemies have faded ("communists" and "Ruskies"), we seem to have latched on to some really strange ideas of who we are supposed to dislike, namely the U.N. and France. That's kind of strange, though, since we are allies with France and part of the U.N. You'd think we wouldn't try so hard to dislike them.

From the article quoted below--from teh Belgravia Dispach--its plain to see the dislike goes both ways. With allies like the french, who needs enemies?

The Tsunami Disaster As Seen From Le Monde

The execrable cartoonist of Le Monde, Plantu, hitting yet another low. Over 155,000 people have died in this massive tsunami disaster. The U.S. is spearheading critical aid efforts in the region. Little matter, of course. Better to make snide commentary along the lines that, hey they destroyed Iraq--and so are well suited to handling such calamities. Sick thought process, no?

Note the cartoon is linked to this story entitled "How the U.N. is Coordinating Aid to a Devastated Asia." What's it about? Basically, French resentment that the U.S. is making a bid at being the leader of a "humanitarian coalition" assisting the hundreds of thousands devastated by the massive seaquake. The short article is, encore, obsessed with the U.N. (read: France) having a major role! Yawn.

Post by **SonomaCat** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 3:07 pm

Beaker wrote:
However, since our enemy is now hard to really pin down and label (terrorism), and as our traditional enemies have faded ("communists" and "Ruskies"), we seem to have latched on to some really strange ideas of who we are supposed to dislike, namely the U.N. and France. That's kind of strange, though, since we are allies with France and part of the U.N. You'd think we wouldn't try so hard to dislike them.
From the article quoted below--from teh Belgravia Dispach--its plain to see the dislike goes both ways. With allies like the french, who needs enemies?
The Tsunami Disaster As Seen From Le Monde

The execrable cartoonist of Le Monde, Plantu, hitting yet another low. Over 155,000 people have died in this massive tsunami disaster. The U.S. is spearheading critical aid efforts in the region. Little matter, of course. Better to make snide commentary along the lines that, hey they destroyed Iraq--and so are well suited to handling such calamities. Sick thought process, no?

Note the cartoon is linked to this story entitled "How the U.N. is Coordinating Aid to a Devastated Asia." What's it about? Basically, French resentment that the U.S. is making a bid at being the leader of a "humanitarian coalition" assisting the hundreds of thousands devastated by the massive seaquake. The short article is, encore, obsessed with the U.N. (read: France) having a major role! Yawn.

It is true -- there certainly are some French people who are obnoxious and even radical, even some political cartoonists. Does that then justify us in sinking to the same level? At some point, we kind of have to grow up, realize that not everybody is going to like us (see my post about why that will always be true), and learn to respect other countries anyway -- especially those who are our strong allies. That doesn't mean that they are required to always agree with us or lick our behinds at every offering, but they are still our allies. We aren't in a position to be jettisoning any democratic allies, and we never will be. We don't have to love everything everyone in that free country (those kinds of places with freedom of speech and press) says and does, but we should still respect the country.

Just a thought -- the blog you are sourcing above again isn't exactly an unbiased source of information. Very little of what is posted is factual -- most of it is his opinion, and he is a very conservative, very anti-France commentator. A wider diversity of reading materials might open you up to some different perspectives. Man cannot live on right-wing propaganda alone....

Beaker · Post by **Beaker** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 4:39 pm

Man cannot live on right-wing propaganda alone....

Why not?

Post by **SonomaCat** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 5:04 pm

It's too bitter.

We need something to cut the taste every so often or else we end up looking like the people in those old Keystone (Bitter Beer Face) ads.

velochat · Post by **velochat** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 5:51 pm

I find most of the cartoons in LeMonde to be pretty blande and serious, compared to US political cartoons. In today's paper, one showed a wave made up of hands dropping cash on a beach and the other showed elephants delivering aid with corporate logos painted on their sides. All countries comment on the US, 'cause we're the 10,000 pound gorilla (or the bull in the china shop) of the planet.

Bleedinbluengold · Post by **Bleedinbluengold** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 6:44 pm

In any case, and regardless of what the victims think, helping the countries that were hit is the only response any government can make in good conscience. If India doesn't want our help, that's fine with me, and I could not care less. We'll help others that do.

velochat · Post by **velochat** » Thu Jan 06, 2005 9:30 am

If India doesn't need our help, that's great. It shows they've made a lot of progress.

iaafan · Post by **iaafan** » Thu Jan 06, 2005 9:57 am

Exactly. What we have here is a few hyper-sensitive Americans doing their thing (getting mad) because another country won't accept our help. "How dare they." Put yourself in India's position, if they say they can help themselves -- even if we want to help and think they need our help -- then let them at least try. I doubt they are trying to insult us. There are others around the world that do accept our help, we can channel our money their way in the meantime. This is turning into nothing but a political/foreign relation campaign. In this case you make the offer to help and wait to see who accepts. But if someone doesn't accept, so what, move on to the next because their are plenty in need in this world, country, state........

iaafan · Post by **iaafan** » Thu Jan 06, 2005 10:01 am

...and even if they are trying to insult us, let them. They can be petty, we can set an example by just letting it go.

This is somewhat similar to the France issue. They didn't want to help and they don't have to, so let it go. And be open-minded enough to understand that they really think they were doing the right thing and that maybe (just maybe) they are doing the right thing. Who's to say?

Bleedinbluengold · Post by **Bleedinbluengold** » Thu Jan 06, 2005 1:44 pm

iaafan wrote:...and even if they are trying to insult us, let them. They can be petty, we can set an example by just letting it go.

This is somewhat similar to the France issue. They didn't want to help and they don't have to, so let it go. And be open-minded enough to understand that they really think they were doing the right thing and that maybe (just maybe) they are doing the right thing. Who's to say?

I hate to break it to you, but France didn't sign up for Gulf War II because they "really thought they were doing the right thing." They refused to help because they stood to lose a ton of business with Iraq, including, but not limited to oil contracts...just an FYI, in case you didn't know that the French gov't owns a significant percentage of Total, the 4th largest oil producer in the world. Gov'ts are self-serving and bottom-line just like everyone else. The US Gov't is not alone in this M.O. --- By ANY means!

Post by **SonomaCat** » Thu Jan 06, 2005 2:06 pm

Interesting summation of the tsunami relief in Slate's international papers write-up:

http://slate.com/id/2111910/

iaafan · Post by **iaafan** » Thu Jan 06, 2005 2:42 pm

Yeah, Bleeder I see what you mean. They probably figured Iraq would defeat the U.S. and by not supporting the US they would then be able to solidify their ground in Iraq? Silly Frenchies.

iaafan · Post by **iaafan** » Thu Jan 06, 2005 2:42 pm

Yes, BAC. Tsunami relief is now a contest.

velochat · Post by **velochat** » Thu Jan 06, 2005 3:13 pm

I'm not sure if the people of any other country in the world supported us invading Iraq. Some countries may have had additional reasons not to take part in a mistake. In Indonesia, we're actually doing something beneficial.

Beaker · Post by **Beaker** » Thu Jan 06, 2005 4:09 pm

In Indonesia, we're actually doing something beneficial.

We are in Iraq, too. But that's a whole different topic.

Bleedinbluengold · Post by **Bleedinbluengold** » Thu Jan 06, 2005 5:51 pm

You said it, Beaker!

iaafan - I have no qualms that you are pacifist. The world needs those, too.

I totally respect what you have to say, and I was only trying to point out that the French Gov't was in a lose-lose situation. They simply couldn't support the US in overthrowing the very government that they did billions in business with. That would have killed any chance of doing business with any other nation in that region, and perhaps around the globe. They would have been the "Mother of All Backstabbers." The French Gov't knew that the only way to secure future business in the region was to stick by their Iraqi business partners (i.e., the Hussein Gov't). I don't fault them for that - I believe the US would have done the same thing had the shoe been on the other foot.

Bleedinbluengold · Post by **Bleedinbluengold** » Thu Jan 06, 2005 6:11 pm

velochat wrote:"The West dominates the world, not because of it's superior ideas, but because of it's superior methods of organized violence."

I don't know if the West dominates the world, but I do know that democratic societies and capitalistic economies are more productive, more innovative and wealthier than those that are neither.

'93HonoluluCat · Post by **'93HonoluluCat** » Thu Jan 06, 2005 9:51 pm

<sarcasm mode: ON>

The tsunami wasn't caused by a 9.0 earthquake after all! The oppressive US and Indian governments caused the tsunami!

<sarcasm mode: OFF>

That's just what Al Jazeera is reporting. Take a look here.