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CelticCat
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Post by CelticCat » Tue Mar 08, 2005 10:40 am

Ian wrote:i've always found it hard to understand why some people relate opposition to the war with not supporting the troops. (in my opinion, that is another gift of rhetoric from W.) i have a friend who, when confronted with arguments against the war, takes it so personally that he starts to get offended on behalf of the soldiers, whose "efforts i am belittling", to paraphrase. at that point, i am an "overprivileged hypocrite who has the right to voice my opinion because of the work done by our troops before my lifetime". it is very hard to have a rational conversation about the real issue, the WAR, at that point because the argument has become personal and the focus is taken down to a level that would have nothing to do with the pros/cons of the war effort. i would say that any person who equates my opposition of the iraq war to not supporting our troops truly belittles my view of humanity and life and gives no credit where compassion is concerned.
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Bleedinbluengold
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Post by Bleedinbluengold » Tue Mar 08, 2005 10:40 am

How do you know it was "hit", and has, "stood the test of time?"

Looks like you just googled it.



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Post by iaafan » Tue Mar 08, 2005 11:02 am

Well I guess I'll have to go with the same line that those with 'insider' info about sports use: "I heard it was a 'hit' from a reliable source." I.e.: A guy who professes to be a history buff told me so. I took his word for it. I had sent him the essay done by Colo. U's Churchill that seems to be the real reason that school's president is being canned (not sports issues). So he sent me this one, so no Google search required on my part. Apparently this USMC guy had a big fan in Gen. MacArthur, who 'I'm told' named streets and buildings after him. Perhaps Mac liked him because he, too, realized that war is a CEO experience.

Which brings us to a part of the discussion of not being patriotic. A lot of folks don't like war because they feel part of the reason we are in a war is to pad the wallets of the elite/profiteers.



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Post by Cat Grad » Tue Mar 08, 2005 11:32 am

Okay, I know I earlier posted that I was not going to discuss this any longer; one of our instructors during Command and General Staff from Ft. Leavenworth posed these questions: " 1. Name a single war that was not fought for profit and 2. At what point were all wars past and future fought over oil and 3. Who first stated: Only the dead have seen the end of war?"



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Post by iaafan » Tue Mar 08, 2005 11:52 am

The shame of that is that the folks that are all hell-bent on getting P-O'd at those individuals who oppose the war don't seem to understand that. They only see the soldiers as people, because of their sacrifices for our freedom, deserving our support. The don't see it as the soldiers being used by the corporate America. One of the things that USMC general seemed to be pointing out is why aren't these soldiers being cut in on these profits, since they're the ones sacrificing the most.

It's not unlike professional sports (how dare you compare our fighting men and women with a game!!!) where for years the players would draw in the fans and the owners would reap all the profits.

Yes, we are fighting for freedom, but there's more to it than that and in some cases (Vietnam, Iraq) maybe removing profit would remove us from war.



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Post by Cat Grad » Tue Mar 08, 2005 12:04 pm

True. Also, what is the final, ultimate act of diplomacy within our foreign relations policies after all negiotiations have failed? What single threat convinced Tiawan to acquiesce to Bejing and finally say they're open to reuniting with China? It was just last week flights resumed from the mainland.



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Post by Bleedinbluengold » Tue Mar 08, 2005 4:49 pm

I wonder how the world would look sociologically and culturally if no wars were ever fought? When you talk about gold and silver, and land, and resources, it's easy to be against war. When you talk about freedom and self-governance, then it's not so easy to be against war.

Hypothetical situation: Assume for a moment that there is intelligent life "out there" who has weapons that are only dreamed of in comic books. If that race were to attack Earth, would you defend yourself, or would you run away because General Dynamics and Lockheed, etc. would make money making equipment to defend Earth?

I think its interesting the different choices people make. I guess that's what makes America. Trying to figure out how this democracy will swing in any matter is a fool's game.



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Post by Bleedinbluengold » Tue Mar 08, 2005 4:56 pm

iaafan wrote:Well I guess I'll have to go with the same line that those with 'insider' info about sports use: "I heard it was a 'hit' from a reliable source." I.e.: A guy who professes to be a history buff told me so. I took his word for it. I had sent him the essay done by Colo. U's Churchill that seems to be the real reason that school's president is being canned (not sports issues). So he sent me this one, so no Google search required on my part. Apparently this USMC guy had a big fan in Gen. MacArthur, who 'I'm told' named streets and buildings after him. Perhaps Mac liked him because he, too, realized that war is a CEO experience.

Which brings us to a part of the discussion of not being patriotic. A lot of folks don't like war because they feel part of the reason we are in a war is to pad the wallets of the elite/profiteers.
This will probably come across as condescending, but I'm only trying to make a simple point. The common person has not ever heard of the guy who wrote the article you posted. However, the common person has heard of General George Patton. So I ask you, who had more of following, and who is more widely quoted? In other words, Ross Perot had a "quite a following" in his day, too.

I think everyone agrees that "War is Hell." However, going through hell is probably worth the effort in some cases.
Last edited by Bleedinbluengold on Tue Mar 08, 2005 4:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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Post by SonomaCat » Tue Mar 08, 2005 5:03 pm

Bleedinbluengold wrote:I wonder how the world would look sociologically and culturally if no wars were ever fought? When you talk about gold and silver, and land, and resources, it's easy to be against war. When you talk about freedom and self-governance, then it's not so easy to be against war.

Hypothetical situation: Assume for a moment that there is intelligent life "out there" who has weapons that are only dreamed of in comic books. If that race were to attack Earth, would you defend yourself, or would you run away because General Dynamics and Lockheed, etc. would make money making equipment to defend Earth?

I think its interesting the different choices people make. I guess that's what makes America. Trying to figure out how this democracy will swing in any matter is a fool's game.
You just gave me an idea, and apologies for hijacking your very valid point ... but we all know exactly how that would work -- we all saw "Independence Day." Bill Pullman as President manned a jet himself and along with a bunch of cropdusters and other scrappy pilots, downed a poorly engineered attack ship. In the process, the whole world came together to fight for our very existence and for one moment, Jew and Muslim and East and West joined hands and saw each other as friends, and the world gets touchy-feely goosebumps together.

Well ... GWB is kind of a pilot ... so we're halfway there already.

No more WMD stories -- the next one is going to be to sell the world on the imminent invasion from outer space. If we can market that one well, we just might accomplish every diplomatic mission ever devised in one fell swoop.

Hey, we had "Wag the Dog" during the Clinton/Lewinsky thing. Why not let life imitate art again?
Last edited by SonomaCat on Tue Mar 08, 2005 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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Post by Bleedinbluengold » Tue Mar 08, 2005 5:29 pm

You know the moment aliens from outer space land on Earth, that half the world will fear them, and half the world will embrace them.

Remember that t.v. movie (and later a series), "V?" Kind of an Independence Day with more screen time. I especially liked the lizard look for the aliens.

Speaking of movies (I digress), I really like the cult B-movie, Starship Troopers. Who can't hate bugs?

The common thread between the above 2 movies is Michael Ironside playing the toughest SOB on the screen.

Man, I really digressed.



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Post by iaafan » Tue Mar 08, 2005 5:31 pm

You don't seem condescending. Emails, posts, messages can sometimes not be written in a way that the point gets lost entirely or they can be read in a way that does not fulfill what the author is stating.

I'm not saying that this USMC maj. gen. from post WWI is a household name or that he is widely quoted, I was just saying (then cleared that up by saying 'I was told') that this guy had quite a following in his day (see: Tommy Tutone, circa 1985). Maybe he didn't have a following at all, that's just what I'm told. Anyhoo, I just threw that out as an aside. I was hoping that some would read his words and find them, as I did, very interesting. I didn't realize a former Maj. Gen. from the USMC had made such a statement. I thought while reading it that it carried some weight coming from such a person and was ironic (see: this thread's initial post) in that the video, too, is of a Marine general (Lt. Gen.). Maybe that's not irony, but just a coincidence.

Yes, war is probably worth it if a nation identifies a menacing threat to all that it believes in. Of course that is up for debate and maybe as the Maj. Gen. says in this paper the wrong people are voting on whether or not we go to war. And maybe they are influenced by the wrong citizens. I think that our soldiers put their trust in us that if we need them to go to war for us that we will be sure that something is really on the line for our country. I think the least our politicians who make these decisions can do is make damn sure that the lives lost are worthwhile. Maybe they are, but then maybe we just believe that they are. Or maybe they aren't we just don't care or aren't involved enough to make sure or they just don't supply us with all the info or we've been brain-washed from years of systematic abuse.



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Post by Bleedinbluengold » Tue Mar 08, 2005 5:41 pm

I think we "want" to believe that the lives lost are worth the cost...We probably want to believe that more than anything.



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Post by Cat Grad » Tue Mar 08, 2005 7:30 pm

As I was a commissioned officer for 21 years both on active duty and in the reserves, let me give all of my nonveteran chatroom fellows an assignment for your research. I'm sure you'll be rather dumbfounded when you find the answer. During a "normal" noncombat year, how many military men and women are killed during the year, on average?



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Post by iaafan » Tue Mar 08, 2005 8:21 pm

Killed. I'll take a stab. 2,500? I know quite a few get killed in training, not to mention just living (car wrecks, alcoholism, drugs, etc).



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Post by iaafan » Thu Mar 10, 2005 12:00 pm

Here's another article (more up to date) that fits this conversation about 'supporting' the troops. I think it would be difficult to say this Admiral doesn't support the troops, but if a non-military person said this they'd probably be accused of doing just that.....

If The War Were Just, Rumsfeld Would Be Right: Fight With What You Got
by Adm Jack Shanahan (USN, Ret.)

You may recall that last year Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld told a soldier in Kuwait that you go to war with the army you’ve got. That happened to be true last year and it’s still true today.

And, as more of our sons and daughters die, we should still be talking about it -- because you won’t find a better argument showing that this war is senseless and was so from the start.

Here’s what I mean: If you’re fighting a war that makes sense, you fight with the soldiers and equipment you’ve got—because you have to fight.

There would have surely been no backlash or criticism during WWII if the Secretaries of the Army and Navy had told a trooper you go to war with the Army you’ve got.

During the early stages of WWII, the Roosevelt administration gave priority to the European theater—for obvious reasons. Those of us in the Pacific theater were frequently short-changed. For example, replacement aircraft were shipped to us without weapons, bomb racks, radios and navigation gear. Our solution was to locate shot-down and crashed U.S. aircraft, send out small teams to salvage what we could, bring the stuff back to our base, install it in the new aircraft, and get them in the air.

The unacceptable option in our minds was to sit around, complain, and wait for someone else to solve our problem. And by the way, there was no policy of rotating us back to the United States every six or twelve months.

And if we had complained or demanded to go home, our peers would have been just as unsympathetic with us as our commanders. And we would have received no sympathy from the home front, which was fully mobilized on our behalf.

We all knew WWII was the right war at the right time.

Even in the case of the unpopular Vietnam conflict, the military went about its business with only the normal grumbling. For example, the swift boats and river patrol boats played prominent roles during the Vietnam conflict. They lacked armor. Like in the situation in Iraq, the crews had no place to really take cover during firefights and frequent ambushes. We had two options: Don’t go on the mission (unacceptable) or improvise. The crews lined the gunwales of their boats with flak jackets and spare body armor, so they could take some cover while on patrol. There was no complaining to the Secretary of Defense. Just do what had to be done.

But judging from the unprecedented reaction to Rumsfeld’s comment last year, it’s not only our soldiers who may think the Iraq war is the wrong war at the wrong time, but also the pundits and members of Congress who were upset at Rumsfeld’s remarks—and felt they could express their dissatisfaction without being sent home by their constituents.

And it makes sense. If you’re fighting a war as a last resort, as should always be the case in war, you fight with whatever you’ve got.

The fact that Rumsfeld did not appear on national TV and express his own outrage at being challenged in public by a soldier makes it appear that he, too, has doubts about the legitimacy of the war. And if he does, he should say so. And our nation should take corrective action as soon as possible.

A military leader, fighting a just war, would have told Americans that the soldier who questioned his country’s commitment to its troops is mistaken and misinformed—and further complaining of this type will not be tolerated.

As the Iraq war drags on and more people die, you can bet you wouldn’t hear anything like this from Rumsfeld if he were confronted by another soldier today.

Vice Admiral Jack Shanahan (USN, ret) formerly commanded the U.S. Second Fleet and heads the Military Advisory Committee of www.Truemajority.org, a project of Business Leaders for Sensible Priorities.



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Post by Bleedinbluengold » Thu Mar 10, 2005 12:46 pm

I see the Admiral's point, but I wonder what his motivation is for penning such an editorial. I'd be just as interested in knowing what his agenda is.

The Admiral has selective memory. The soldiers in Iraq ARE arming themselves with whatever is available, and ARE using whatever they can to armor their vehicles.

I was, by no means present during WWII; however, I have studied its history to a great degree. The Admirial seems to forget that President Roosevelt BARELY received approval from Congress to help Great Britain, and later, enter the conflict formally. Heck, there was a significant faction in America that believed that America should let the chips fall where they may, and that America should have friendly relations with Germany just in case they did defeat Britain - not unlike Iraq now, and 15 years ago.



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Post by iaafan » Thu Mar 10, 2005 3:09 pm

That's interesting, I had no idea there was significant faction of the US that wanted to buddy up to Germany ... just in case.

It's ironic that someone wants to know this persons agenda, yet I've never heard anyone make that comment when John McCain goes on one of his rants about his experiences. I recently read an email verson about how he ripped a fellow congressman in front of the assembly, regarding a war issue. McCain sounded like he was in the right by doing so, but no one was wondering what his motivation was. Like the Admiral, he may have had one. Next time someone sends me one of this "By golly, I can tell you about that cuz I was there sonny boy," I'll say I wonder what his motivation was. I bet that'll go over well.



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Post by Cat Grad » Fri Mar 11, 2005 9:10 am

Well, as I've already posted that I'm a byproduct of MSUs ROTC Detachment, I thought some of you would be interested in some information supposedly only known by our military men and women or contractors willing to go into an area where there's still many insurgents.

>Subject: Of course we don't know---
>Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 07:38:02 -0800 (PST)
>
>DID YOU KNOW THIS?
>
>Did you know that 47 countries have re-established their embassies in Iraq?
>
>Did you know that the Iraqi government employs 1.2 million Iraqi people?
>
>Did you know that 3100 schools have been renovated, 364 schools are under rehabilitation, 263 schools are now under construction and 38 new schools have been built in Iraq?
>
>Did you know that Iraq¹s higher educational structure consists of 20 Universities, 46 Institutes or colleges and 4 research centers?
>
>Did you know that 25 Iraq students departed for the United States in January 2004 for the re-established Fulbright program?
>
>Did you know that the Iraqi Navy is operational? They have 5- 100-foot patrol craft, 34 smaller vessels and a navel infantry regiment?
>
>Did you know that Iraq¹s Air Force consists of three operation squadrons, 9 reconnaissance and 3 US C-130 transport aircraft which operate day and night, and will soon add 16 UH-1 helicopters and 4 bell jet rangers?
>
>Did you know that Iraq has a counter-terrorist unit and a Commando Battalion?
>
>Did you know that the Iraqi Police Service has over 55,000 fully trained and equipped police officers?
>
>Did you know that there are 5 Police Academies in Iraq that produce over 3500 new officers each 8 weeks?
>
>Did you know there are more than 1100 building projects going on in Iraq? They include 364 schools, 67 public clinics, 15 hospitals, 83 railroad stations, 22 oil facilities, 93 water facilities and 69 electrical facilities.
>
>Did you know that 96% of Iraqi children under the age of 5 have received the first 2 series of polio vaccinations?
>
>Did you know that 4.3 million Iraqi children were enrolled in primary school by mid October, 2004?
>
>Did you know that there are 1,192,000 cell phone subscribers in Iraq and phone use has gone up 158%?
>
>Did you know that Iraq has an independent media that consist of 75 radio stations, 180 newspapers and 10 television stations?
>
>Did you know that the Baghdad Stock Exchange opened in June of 2004?
>
>Did you know that 2 candidates in the Iraqi presidential election had a recent televised debate recently?
>
>OF COURSE WE DIDN¹T KNOW! AND WHY DIDN¹T WE KNOW? OUR MEDIA WOULDN¹T TELL US!
>
>Instead of shouting these accomplishments from every rooftop, they would rather show photo¹s of what a few perverted malcontent soldiers have done in prisons in many cases never disclosing the circumstances surrounding the events. Instead of showing our love for our country, we get photos of flag burning incidents at Abu Ghraib and people throwing snowballs at presidential motorcades. The lack of accentuating the positive in Iraq serves only one purpose. It undermines the world¹s perception of the United States and our soldiers.
>
>Pass it on!



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Post by SonomaCat » Fri Mar 11, 2005 9:43 am

I'll say it again, just because I was really impressed with it -- if you want to see an unbiased look at what things are like for the soldiers and citizens in Iraq, check out "Gunner Palace" when it comes out. It's a very interesting documentary that cuts through the propoganda on both sides of the issue and simply tells the stories of the people on the ground in their own words.



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Post by iaafan » Fri Mar 11, 2005 12:26 pm

So CatGrad, what's your motivation for posting that? :wink:



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