Ugly Americans - New Orleans

[SonomaCat]

I want to respond with my thoughts to GL and BAC's points.

GL: You are right that NYC wasn't impacted nearly as much as a whole as NO, BUT the attacks on 9/11 were also a surprise and no one was ready in anyway because we didn't know it was coming. On the other hand NO saw this thing coming for two days, yet many people ignored the mandatory evacuation and stayed in their homes. I know that many people had no means to leave, but the people who are now looting, killing, etc. obviously were capable of heading north when the mandatory evacuation was handed down. So I think that NO should have been way more prepared than NYC and therefore should have risen to the challenges even more.

BAC: I think the welfare comments have to do with the "what is the government going to do for me" attitude that is prevalent from the very poorest people all the way up to the mayor and governor in the area. The welfare system has conditioned these people to not think for themselves and find was to overcome the disaster. Instead they are asking "what is the government going to do for me". Whether that is correct or not I don't know, but I think that is what many believe is one of the problems in NO.

Thanks for the clarification on the welfare thing. I do think that such a theory is a vast oversimplication of the problem concieved from the safety of a nice dry room and a full stomach, however. I have a feeling that if Beverly Hills or Bozeman or San Diego (or anyplace else that isn't stereotypically subject to a welfare mentality) was hit with a similar disaster, people there would want/need help just as urgently, and the leaders would be just as adament in trying to get it from any source possible. Since our levels of government are whom we generally rely upon for infrastructure, public safety, etc., it makes sense to me that the call/demand for help to be directed there. They could just tell their residents to "buck up and learn how to tread water," but that would only work for so long.

Maybe the difference between NYC and NO wasn't some sort of "welfare divide," but was rather that NYC is a liberal city and Louisiana is a conservative state, and apparently the good liberals are just better able to handle disasters? Silly conclusion? Yes, I agree.

[Grizlaw]

I want to respond with my thoughts to GL and BAC's points.

GL: You are right that NYC wasn't impacted nearly as much as a whole as NO, BUT the attacks on 9/11 were also a surprise and no one was ready in anyway because we didn't know it was coming. On the other hand NO saw this thing coming for two days, yet many people ignored the mandatory evacuation and stayed in their homes. I know that many people had no means to leave, but the people who are now looting, killing, etc. obviously were capable of heading north when the mandatory evacuation was handed down. So I think that NO should have been way more prepared than NYC and therefore should have risen to the challenges even more.

I do pretty much agree with this. My basic point, though, is that in NYC after 9/11, at least the infrastructure was *there* to support the people who had been displaced. NYC is a much larger metro area, and as a percentage of the total area, a much smaller part of the city was affected. Although lower Manhattan was completely shut down, Manhattan north of 14th Street was still basically functional, as were Brooklyn, the Bronx, Queens, and the outlying suburbs. At least those who were displaced *had* places to go. If the entire city had been basically destroyed (as in NO), would NY have been different than what we're seeing there now? I'd like to say yes, but the situations are a lot different from one another.

Don't get me wrong; I'm not holding people in NO blameless. The looting is inexcusable, and perhaps mistakes have been made in the handling of the crisis by the leaders there. My only point is that comparing it to the way 9/11 was handled is not entirely fair.

--GL

[GOKATS]

NYC cops and fireman didn't give up. Can't say the same about NO cops and firemen.

Cops gave up their badges and walked away.

[rtb]

I absolutely agree that the situations are completely different, I just thought that the counter points should have been brought up to why NO maybe should have been more prepared in some instances. (And no, liberals aren't better off in a crisis BAC...I think good old republican Montana would show the world how to overcome if we were faced with something like this...so my silly conclusion is conservatives are better off! )

I have no doubt that a majority of the people stuck in NO had no means to get out of the city and we desparately need to help them ASAP. However the looters and thugs now causing havoc in the city could have left and there is no excuse for them.

[SonomaCat]

rtb: One thing I will grant you for sure about the Montana comparison ... there would be no looting going on in Montana, as every store owner would probably have stuck with the store, and would definitely be armed! This is one example of where an armed citizenry appears to me to be a very good idea.

So where do I go to get my NRA commendation medal?

[iaafan]

[quote]rtb: One thing I will grant you for sure about the Montana comparison ... there would be no looting going on in Montana, as every store owner would probably have stuck with the store, and would definitely be armed! This is one example of where an armed citizenry appears to me to be a very good idea. [/quote]

Not so fast. In 1991(?) there a freezeout (-30; windchill -91) and a train failed going over MacDonald Pass. It rolled back into Helena where it collided with another train and a tanker car exploded knocking out electricity and windows throughout town. A considerable section of town needed to be evacuated. Downtown Helena was blocked off for fear of looting.

Would looting have occured w/o this measure? Maybe not, but the fact that this was done speaks to that statement. I don't recall if any store owners were down there with shotgun in hand, but the local government stepped up in this case and did protect its citizenry.

However, I doubt Helena has a percentage of its population equal to that of N.O. that would actually need to go out looting in that situation. Montana cities are much more manageable places during a crisis than say Metro N.O. on into southern Mississippi.

A place in Montana that is hit with severe blows by Mother Nature is NE Montana where huge spring snow storms cut the area off from the world. But again this is much more manageable considering there are about 25,000 in the affected area. [/quote]

[Bleedinbluengold]

I used the term welfare state in the literal sense, and also as a figurative state of being.

Basically, it's been left to the Federal government to rescue the citizens of NO and elsewhere, because the State, the City and her citizens have obviously shown that they can't take care of themselves. That is a sad revelation. Even the Governor and Mayor can only cry and point fingers, respectively. Those are the leaders?

[SonomaCat]

I used the term welfare state in the literal sense, and also as a figurative state of being.

Basically, it's been left to the Federal government to rescue the citizens of NO and elsewhere, because the State, the City and her citizens have obviously shown that they can't take care of themselves. That is a sad revelation. Even the Governor and Mayor can only cry and point fingers, respectively. Those are the leaders?

But placed in exactly the same circumstances, could any city or any group of people "take care of themselves?" Sometimes certain events are so severe that it does take the resources of the federal government to fix things.

And going back to the NYC/NO comparisons, how many million/billions of dollars of federal money went to NYC (including direct payments to families of victims) after a relatively small part of the city was damaged? We might wish for days when taxes were lower and the federal government's powers to spend were lessened, but I personally can't fault the people in LA for calling on the federal government to help out with this massive disaster.

I am pretty sure that the levees that broke are federal projects (Army Corps of Engineers), so it makes sense that the federal government be included in any discussions of poor planning as wellas be called upon to help out when they fail.

[iaafan]

You'd have to go back before the dawn of civilization to find a time when everyone expected to fend for themselves. People 'evolved' to a point where they determined it in there best interests to form civilzations that were able to pool resources in an effort to resist foreign invaders, establish healthier living quarters, and generally work together for the betterment of all.

While they knew it was coming no one really had a full grasp that the situation would be this bad. Had they been then the suffering parties surely would've done all they could to get out and the governments surely would've readied themselves to handle the crisis. It doesn't look like either has happened. So it cuts both ways. But anyone arguing that the people of N.O. are responsible for their own undoing is certainly not being fair.

[Bleedinbluengold]

True -

But what we see in NO is a complete lack of ANY willingness to help themselves or each other. I am not saying, "it's your city, you take care of it." What I am saying is, "hey, how about a little assistance from your ownselves?" "The rest of us will send everything we can as soon as possible...money, clothes, food, us...........but, would it be too much trouble to ask that you holster your weapon?.

Granted, the news coverage is all about the dark side, and I'm sure there are many brave stories. But c'mon, a reasonably self-sufficient person would, perhaps, find any means to get to a safe location...and, ummm, a reasonable person might consider heeding the 2 days of pre-warnings to evacuate. And, ummm, I'd consider leaving the 60-inch big screen behind - they taste terrible.

It reminds me of the modern day parable where the guy prays to God for the correct lottery numbers. He does this twice a week for months and years. Finally, he gives up hope and his last prayer is conceding that God doesn't love him. God then responds, and says, "Geez, at least meet me half way and buy a lottery ticket!"

[SonomaCat]

True -

But what we see in NO is a complete lack of ANY willingness to help themselves or each other. I am not saying, "it's your city, you take care of it." What I am saying is, "hey, how about a little assistance from your ownsleves?" "The rest of us will send everything we can as soon as possible...money, clothes, food, us...........but, would it be too much trouble to ask that you holster your weapon?.

Granted, the news coverage is all about the dark side, and I'm sure there are many brave stories. But c'mon, a reasonably self-sufficient person would, perhaps, find any means to get to a safe location...and, ummm, a reasonable person might consider heeding the 2 days of pre-warnings to evacuate. And, ummm, I'd consider leaving the 60-inch big screen behind - they taste terrible.

I see what you are saying, and I think all of our perceptions are probably somewhat skewed by what little information is trickling out and how it is being presented. I'm sure we'll start hearing a lot more about the behind-the-scenes stories of bravery (and surely a couple cheesy made for TV movies on the subject) as things start to come together down there.

And the visibile minority that is looting does indeed make for what I guess could be labeled as "bad PR" for those left in NO. I would also guess that the numbers of police and fire personnel who failed to show up for work were a vast minority as well. News just gets filtered in strange ways in these times of high-impact and immediate news coverage.

[Ponycat]

My 2 cents is that leadership is a big part of it. You can take the NYC example but a much better example would be the earthquake in California in 88, I believe. I'm not a fan of Feinstein but she was prepared for something she knew was going to happen and things worked out. The 88 quakes damage area is much more similar to NO. But again 911 and the quake=Strong leadership Katrina and lets bring up the Rodney King riots=no leadership.

One other thing and I may be contradicting myself, but this tragedy is something like 90 square miles and I think a lot of the victims probably don't realize this. I think they imagine it's much smaller and thus can't figure out why the help isn't there yet. 90 square miles is a damn big area. Also my guess is the bad stories aren't as prevalent as the good stories, but again doesn't that go back to leadership.

Speaking of this I generally support Bush but his leadership has been lacking during this time, especially when compared to his response to 9-11. Just my opinion.

[Bleedinbluengold]

While they knew it was coming no one really had a full grasp that the situation would be this bad. Had they been then the suffering parties surely would've done all they could to get out and the governments surely would've readied themselves to handle the crisis. It doesn't look like either has happened. So it cuts both ways. But anyone arguing that the people of N.O. are responsible for their own undoing is certainly not being fair.

That's the thing: FEMA KNEW it would happen. The Army Corp KNEW it would happen - sometime - and they KNEW they couldn't do anything more than they are.

That it took this long for this disaster to happen is the real miracle.

[SonomaCat]

I haven't been watching any TV lately, so I have missed all of these pointed exchanges -- sounds like some refreshingly blunt exchanges with politicos ... and even more refreshing, it doesn't sound like it is running along party lines (as most talking heads are unfortunately usually nothing more than party puppets):

http://www.slate.com/id/2125581/?nav=fix

[GOKATS]

As a 4th generation Montanan I'm certainly no racist, but this doesn't surprise me.

http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story. ... 0901BAR02D

or this

http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/ns/news/sto ... 827LACG104

The government is doing all they can to make the best of what is a very serious situation, but as my dearly departed Dad used to say- "God helps those that help themselves". We weren't a very religious family, but it's a credo I grew up with.

Back to my original post which started this thread, I've been glued to CNN all week, and as others have posted we're probably seeing the 'dark' side due to media coverage, but I can guarantee you that if I were there my ass wouldn't be just sitting around waiting for someone to save me. One way or other I'd find food and shelter. If I had to break into a home that someone left evacuated, so be it- I'd eat what food they had, wouldn't destroy what they had left, and would leave a thank you note.

Just my Montana way of thinking- bless them all and good luck!

[iaafan]

My ass wouldn't be sitting there waiting for someone to save either, but my ass also doesn't sit in a wheelchair and it isn't 90 years old and it doesn't have dependents (babies) to care for. So for the first, I like my odds sitting it out rather than rolling into a four foot deep hole and getting stuck in the Louisiana muck. For the second, ditto the first only on weak legs. For the third, ditto again only with an infant in my arms. I also wouldn't leave my family behind, esp. knowing the kinds of folks I'm leaving them behind with. Lets put the knotheads with guns in their own little group here and not deal with them as part of the overwhelming majority that just wants help.

I fail to see why it is so hard to understand the plight of these people. Many have no dependable means of travel and they are water-locked. Before we start acting all high-n-mighty, we have morons in Montana who go snow skiing/snowmobiling in avalanche prone areas and die every year. They GO TO the danger area and tap out/endanger search and rescue crews every year.

[catbooster]

One additional piece of the puzzle whan comparing the reaction to 9/11 vs the breakdown in N.O. - Generally those left in NO are the people least capable of taking care of themselves. Virtually all of the leadership evacuated, and by leadership I don't mean only high profile mayors and Governors, etc., but the guy that lives down the street and is well respected, knows how to organize a few neighbors and get a task accomplished. I think the importance of people like that is easy to overlook.

[grizzh8r]

As a 4th generation Montanan I'm certainly no racist, but this doesn't surprise me.

http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story. ... 0901BAR02D

or this

http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/ns/news/sto ... 827LACG104

The government is doing all they can to make the best of what is a very serious situation, but as my dearly departed Dad used to say- "God helps those that help themselves". We weren't a very religious family, but it's a credo I grew up with.

Back to my original post which started this thread, I've been glued to CNN all week, and as others have posted we're probably seeing the 'dark' side due to media coverage, but I can guarantee you that if I were there my ass wouldn't be just sitting around waiting for someone to save me. One way or other I'd find food and shelter. If I had to break into a home that someone left evacuated, so be it- I'd eat what food they had, wouldn't destroy what they had left, and would leave a thank you note.

Just my Montana way of thinking- bless them all and good luck!

Respose to first bolded part:

NOTE: Before I get called on it, I am NOT racist.

"the Rev." Jessie Jackson makes me sick. He does not deserve, and should not have the title "Rev." He is a Slimeball rabblerouser whose one mission is to defame/blame/namecall the President or any other white politician who happens to be handy as a "goat". He exploits his own race for his personal benefit, all while widening the gap between races. He is nothing more than a sensationalist (i.e., Mike Moore). /end rant

Response to second bolded part:

GOKATS, I agree: God helps people who help themselves. 'Nuff said.

Response to third bolded part:

Any News organization will tell you this: There is no news like bad news. I don't understand it, but (for some sick, twisted reason) people of this nation are hooked on bad news, and the media picked that up right away and ran with it. It doesn't matter what source - MSNBC, FOXNEWS, CNN, they all do it, as well as every newspaper in the country. I watch/read the news as little as possible for this reason.

Granted, NO is a pretty grim situation; thats the way it is. But for the media to dwell on the rapes, murders, looting, etc is sad. Show us the stories of survival, human caring, and perseverence. They had no trouble showing that to us right after 9/11; why not now???

[CelticCat]

Back to the looting subject - it isn't just people in NO that are taking "advantage" of this, I found this article today:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4209182.stm

It makes me sick how some people will take advantage of such a tragedy.

Speaking of racism, GOKATS, did you happen to see the pictures of looting that Bill Mahr showed tonight? There was one picture of a black kid, and the caption was something like "kid loots food from local store", while there was a picture of a white couple doing the exact same thing, and the caption read "a couple goes home after finding bread in a local store". I thought that was fairly interesting.

EDIT: http://www.wonkette.com/politics/ap/ind ... ing-123124

[iaafan]

I think many are over emphasizing the looting situation. There is and should be a big gap between our reaction to the suffering that is going on and the looting that is occuring. Amongst the suffering is hunger, pain, rape, murder. Looting lags in that prioritization.

How many TVs and other non-essential items have been stolen? Is the dollar figure $5 million. Whatever it is the reaction is to shoot on sight. Compare that to all the CEOs in our nation that each will steal more annually than all the looters combined in N.O. The CEOs get a jail stint in a min. security Bed and Breakfast for heisting millions. The looters get shot for taking thousands in goods that are apt to be ruined by flood water anyway. Now tell me what is going on in N.O. isn't money-related. And tell me what races are the lowest income.

Bill O'Reilly did a good job of changing the subject to looting and crime, while his reporters on the scene were trying to report on the suffering last night. Thanks Bill, we appreiciate all you're doing to keep up informed. He had to break away from one segment, because something was happening in Aruba with the case of the missing girl. Outstanding!