NEWSWEEK store recanted

[Cat Grad]

Be the same old dogma--which U.S. region would stand to benefit the most

[Hell's Bells]

BAC

1)I dont belive that by going into a murderous rage over somthing small that it puts you a couple of pegs below human, instead its just natrual for some people to overreact. secondly for anyone to assume that us americans are not prone to such activity has not heard of the Rodney King riots, griz games *sorry had to toss that in lol*, and your NBA championship garden variety street riot. Think of it this way: wouldnt you get mad if somthing you valued...higher then your life, ex. kids, your spouse...was decicrated publically by a national news organization

2) I think we do agree on at least some points in this spirited debate...ill just stay in denyal about it until we unravel it.

3) shouldnt news organizations take full responsibility...IE punish/fire all staff that are involved with wrighting a poorly reaserched news article that would not pass for a 5th grade history report, including reperations to the families that were killed...ect??

[SonomaCat]

BAC

1)I dont belive that by going into a murderous rage over somthing small that it puts you a couple of pegs below human, instead its just natrual for some people to overreact. secondly for anyone to assume that us americans are not prone to such activity has not heard of the Rodney King riots, griz games *sorry had to toss that in lol*, and your NBA championship garden variety street riot. Think of it this way: wouldnt you get mad if somthing you valued...higher then your life, ex. kids, your spouse...was decicrated publically by a national news organization

2) I think we do agree on at least some points in this spirited debate...ill just stay in denyal about it until we unravel it.

3) shouldnt news organizations take full responsibility...IE punish/fire all staff that are involved with wrighting a poorly reaserched news article that would not pass for a 5th grade history report, including reperations to the families that were killed...ect??

1. You're comparing the desecration of a book (an article that has no material value outside of symbolism) to Rodney King (black man beaten by cops who were acquitted) and a person's family. I don't think those items stand as equals in terms of justifiable homocide considerations. I stand by my statement -- anyone willing to kill over something as trivial as the desecration of a symbol is a few pegs below human. The fact that religion is their motivating factor doesn't diminish my feelings. There is no justification for that behavior, and I am really confused that you are trying to argue that path. It's not human nature -- it's a perverted sense of right and wrong forced into their culture by extremist religious beliefs -- a prime example of religion turning into a negative impact on society (sadly not the only example).

Back to the 911 tie-in. Whose fault was that? Was it justified? After all, we desecrated the hell out of them for eons -- was 911 our deserved reward? Was it just human nature on their part? I don't think so.

3. Yes, the magazine should take appropriate action against the people who made the mistakes. Reparations? Hmmm. That's a big can o' worms. I know you liberals like your trial lawyers and class action lawsuits, but if you want to start allocating fault for terrorist acts around the world on companies, individuals and (most importantly) goverments and politicians, then there are going to be a lot of very, very wealthy litigators. If your plan was adopted, how long before the U.S. government receives a bill (that would be supported by the precedent you established) for every death caused by mistakes in judgment made by the U.S. government? Or would only a magazine been such a burden, while all other guilty parties were excluded.

I understand the motivations here from the right, so I know where you are coming from. I fully agree that Newsweek mucked up really bad on this one, and that heads should roll. However, I think you are going way overboard in trying to suggest that Newsweek bears (what you seem to be suggesting) 100% of the blame for the deaths that followed. I don't think you can really, in good faith, support that claim without coming out as a bleeding heart "American is evil" liberal yourself, and I don't think you are close to doing that.

[Hell's Bells]

BAC

1)I dont belive that by going into a murderous rage over somthing small that it puts you a couple of pegs below human, instead its just natrual for some people to overreact. secondly for anyone to assume that us americans are not prone to such activity has not heard of the Rodney King riots, griz games *sorry had to toss that in lol*, and your NBA championship garden variety street riot. Think of it this way: wouldnt you get mad if somthing you valued...higher then your life, ex. kids, your spouse...was decicrated publically by a national news organization

2) I think we do agree on at least some points in this spirited debate...ill just stay in denyal about it until we unravel it.

3) shouldnt news organizations take full responsibility...IE punish/fire all staff that are involved with wrighting a poorly reaserched news article that would not pass for a 5th grade history report, including reperations to the families that were killed...ect??

1. You're comparing the desecration of a book (an article that has no material value outside of symbolism) to Rodney King (black man beaten by cops who were acquitted) and a person's family. I don't think those items stand as equals in terms of justifiable homocide considerations. I stand by my statement -- anyone willing to kill over something as trivial as the desecration of a symbol is a few pegs below human. The fact that religion is their motivating factor doesn't diminish my feelings. There is no justification for that behavior, and I am really confused that you are trying to argue that path. It's not human nature -- it's a perverted sense of right and wrong forced into their culture by extremist religious beliefs -- a prime example of religion turning into a negative impact on society (sadly not the only example).

Back to the 911 tie-in. Whose fault was that? Was it justified? After all, we desecrated the hell out of them for eons -- was 911 our deserved reward? Was it just human nature on their part? I don't think so.

3. Yes, the magazine should take appropriate action against the people who made the mistakes. Reparations? Hmmm. That's a big can o' worms. I know you liberals like your trial lawyers and class action lawsuits, but if you want to start allocating fault for terrorist acts around the world on companies, individuals and (most importantly) goverments and politicians, then there are going to be a lot of very, very wealthy litigators. If your plan was adopted, how long before the U.S. government receives a bill (that would be supported by the precedent you established) for every death caused by mistakes in judgment made by the U.S. government? Or would only a magazine been such a burden, while all other guilty parties were excluded.

I understand the motivations here from the right, so I know where you are coming from. I fully agree that Newsweek mucked up really bad on this one, and that heads should roll. However, I think you are going way overboard in trying to suggest that Newsweek bears (what you seem to be suggesting) 100% of the blame for the deaths that followed. I don't think you can really, in good faith, support that claim without coming out as a bleeding heart "American is evil" liberal yourself, and I don't think you are close to doing that.

1) rodney king and the koran riots are the same thing if you think in the mindset of a mid-easterner....you know take a walk in his shoes. BAC the koran, to someone of islamic faith, is the most important thing in life. Like it or not religion is a huge part of these peoples lives here

about 911 - completely different topic...if you want to talk about 911 lets open a different thread

3) No I am not a bleeding heart america sucks liberal...voted bush last 2 elections...but here is what i am thinking:

a) newsweek's article causes major riots in the mid-east
b) Because that rag decided to publish a article which is largly false, made up on rumors and innuendo, which had caused said riots, "heads should roll"

c) Newsweek is, corportately, responsible for the riots. I know your point, that it is also the rioter's fault for their actions, and i am not, trust me, trying to make an excuse for their actions here...but which is easier...waiting a week or 2 to publish a contirvercial article that will drop our credibility in the mid east on the basis that we might just have to retract the bugger, or for one mid eastern man not to get pissed off because his holy book was decicrated.



BAC it seems to me that you fail to comprehend the value of "holy books" to a religous person...Just courious here but i wonder how many people on bobcatnation.com would be pissed if it were a bible that got flushed?

[Cat Grad]

I would. I get upset when I watch someone burn our flag, fail to take it in at night unless it's lit or gets rained on. I really get pissed when someone mocks my college or ridicules how our kids do on a football or basketball court. Certain things are important to me and worth fighting for.

[SonomaCat]

Uh huh, yeah, yeah, uh huh, I know... I realize that the Islamic extemists are able to justify their actions via their religion -- I have long understood that. The problem is, you seem to be defending their position as one that is rationale/human nature.

It's not rationale. They are wrong to kill innocents over something so trivial.

If anyone in here or in the U.S. was willing to kill innocents over the similar treatment of a Bible or a flag, they too would be irrational and wrong.

I know this Newsweek thing is a cathartic opportunity for some people to gain a little retribution, but while enjoying the opportunity to place the blame for some angry Muslims on someone other than Bush for a change, please at least be consistent with your application of your assertions. 911 is 100% analogous to this event, and to the extent you want Newsweek to be held responsible for irrational acts of violence overseas for upsetting Muslims, we too must be held responsible for the terrorist attack on 911.

I think the primary cause of both events was the oft-mentioned religious freaks with warped values and that our sins of upsetting them carry a much, much lower burden of responsibility. You seem to be placing the largest burden of blame on the persons who angered them. Well, pick one side of the debate, but keep in mind that you must apply that theory evenly to both "newsweek" and 911 (and all other past and future terrorist attacks motivated by the Koran). You can't pick and choose whichever one is convenient at the time.

We should all be upset at the lack of professionalism shown by Newsweek, but it is just as important that we keep things in the proper perspective and not let our political leanings skew how we look at situations like this.

My liberal comment was tongue-in-cheek, but your own words are putting you in the same camp as those supposedly un-American types. Be careful when you start making arguments about one thing that also relate directly to other issues. You may discover that you are preaching "lef wing P.C. liberal" values without even realizing it.

[Cat Grad]

Oh, we have more than a few that recognize which behaviors by the American public more than disgusts--maybe too weak a word--the rest of the world, but asking this culture to accept any responsibility for being hated is a bit too much. That'd be like asking a Frenchman to quit taunting a German to the point of fury. BAC, are you saying rational people are not capable of irrational behavior even in the most civilized society? Respect for the others point of view and beliefs and the possible consequences of disrespect of their culture is arrogance to the worst possible level and may ultimately cost many lives--and has and will continue.

[SonomaCat]

Oh, we have more than a few that recognize which behaviors by the American public more than disgusts--maybe too weak a word--the rest of the world, but asking this culture to accept any responsibility for being hated is a bit too much. That'd be like asking a Frenchman to quit taunting a German to the point of fury. BAC, are you saying rational people are not capable of irrational behavior even in the most civilized society? Respect for the others point of view and beliefs and the possible consequences of disrespect of their culture is arrogance to the worst possible level and may ultimately cost many lives--and has and will continue.

Sure, normally rational people can act irrationally at times, but unless they have a better reason that a book flushed down a toilet, I am not going to excuse them from accountability for their actions (and they can't even claim they were drunk or high, so that eliminates our locally most commonly accepted "outs").

I am certainly not in the camp that blames America for 911 -- I was merely pointing out that such an argument is the ideological twin of what HB was advocating.

There are probably things that we could do better with respect to our relations with Muslims, but I give 99.999% of the blame for terrorism on terrorists, with roughly 0.001% of the blame going to the victims (as represented by thier government/media/etc.).

[Cat Grad]

I'm afraid that we, as a society, fail to consider why we are hated as we are by the world. Consider the acts after we went into Iraq that has infuriated Muslims: placing male PWs under the control of women, viewing naked females, making them eat pork, drinking alchohol in their country--as a few violations. Newsweek, or any other publication here still does not get it either because somehow we can't get humility down. We are as bad as the French in unfounded arrogance in the world's eye.

[SonomaCat]

I'm afraid that we, as a society, fail to consider why we are hated as we are by the world. Consider the acts after we went into Iraq that has infuriated Muslims: placing male PWs under the control of women, viewing naked females, making them eat pork, drinking alchohol in their country--as a few violations. Newsweek, or any other publication here still does not get it either because somehow we can't get humility down. We are as bad as the French in unfounded arrogance in the world's eye.

I agree with all of that. It seems to me that Newsweek just added fuel to a fire that was already burning brightly.

And, in all likelihood, the flushing of the Koran thing probably did happen at one point or another -- Newsweek just can't document it (and shouldn't have reported it, obviously). It fits in with everything else we are already on record as having done, which is why Muslims were so quick to believe it. Had this been the very first report of an act of this nature, I think we would have gotten a little more leeway on it.

[mquast53000]

I think that those rioting individuals were going to incite chaos and destruction at some point. They just needed a reason, and Newsweek gave them one. Hell, these misfits had death and destruction on their minds, and it was going to happen at some point. There will be other riots and deaths in the name of “Islam”, but there will be a new reason for their actions. These individuals simply want a reason to riot, so that they will in the World’s view be the victims of a circumstance not the cause of mayhem. Look at this thread, we are all blaming Newsweek for people that have died! That is crazy! Newsweek was irresponsible, but they didn’t KILL anyone, yet we are blaming them for the death of 15 people! The ones to blame are those that created a deadly environment in the name of “Allah.” The people that started the violence are the same people that forced us to enter Afghanistan and Iraq… Newsweek is the whipping boy on this one, but the blame they receive should be minor. If you want to blame someone look no further then Bush, or for that matter ourselves for electing Bush…

Of course BAC is off the hook, we all know he voted for Kerry…

[Cat Grad]

I suppose so. Clauswitz said it best when he first said to never underestimate your enemy or that the good leaders knew who their loyal lieutenants were but the great leaders knew their enemy.

[SonomaCat]

I think that those rioting individuals were going to incite chaos and destruction at some point. They just needed a reason, and Newsweek gave them one. Hell, these misfits had death and destruction on their minds, and it was going to happen at some point. There will be other riots and deaths in the name of “Islam”, but there will be a new reason for their actions. These individuals simply want a reason to riot, so that they will in the World’s view be the victims of a circumstance not the cause of mayhem. Look at this thread, we are all blaming Newsweek for people that have died! That is crazy! Newsweek was irresponsible, but they didn’t KILL anyone, yet we are blaming them for the death of 15 people! The ones to blame are those that created a deadly environment in the name of “Allah.” The people that started the violence are the same people that forced us to enter Afghanistan and Iraq… Newsweek is the whipping boy on this one, but the blame they receive should be minor. If you want to blame someone look no further then Bush, or for that matter ourselves for electing Bush…

Of course BAC is off the hook, we all know he voted for Kerry…

Strangely, I have to disagree with the blaming Bush part (at least in full) -- even if it means giving up my exclusion from blame. I place a much larger blame on the corrupt theocratic governments in the Middle East who keep the wealth for themselves, starve their own people, and then preach anti-Westernism (via religion) to deflect the blame of their own sins on us. We add a little to that with our policies (although supporting Israel is the main one, and that's a tough subject to get my arms around -- they are a rare functioning democracy, but they don't make supporting them very easy), but I think most of their hate found its roots at home, and had nothing to do directly with us.

[Cat Grad]

Alright, we did a good job supplying both sides for many, many years. Who exposed this to not only the morons that get their news from the networks but the rest of the world thereby pissing the rest of the world off at our foreign policies? SOME NEWS SHOULD NEVER BE REPORTED.

[Hell's Bells]

I'm afraid that we, as a society, fail to consider why we are hated as we are by the world. Consider the acts after we went into Iraq that has infuriated Muslims: placing male PWs under the control of women, viewing naked females, making them eat pork, drinking alchohol in their country--as a few violations. Newsweek, or any other publication here still does not get it either because somehow we can't get humility down. We are as bad as the French in unfounded arrogance in the world's eye.

first of all all that newsweek, abc, cBS is trying to do is to find a way to trash bush...how many different stories on 60 minutes were aimed either twords bashing bush or a book that did the same. I am open for a free press but while they are doing that they are wilfully blind on anything of truth that might actually sink bush....IE our border with mexico...but not to get off on a tangent here...

I dont think we are as bad as the french...we actually win our wars

If you want to trace how that region hates us towards our presence in afganistan or our 10 years in saudi...for the record they have hates us for a long time...us and the europeans

[Hell's Bells]

Alright, we did a good job supplying both sides for many, many years. Who exposed this to not only the morons that get their news from the networks but the rest of the world thereby pissing the rest of the world off at our foreign policies? SOME NEWS SHOULD NEVER BE REPORTED.

watch it...we primarly supported iran, who has some of our 747s and f-14s BTW...dont know if they still do

while we did supply Iraq, So-Dam-Insaine used russian and french equipment

[Cat Grad]

Well, it's Miller Time Gotta go have a cold one or a few in celebration to the American Culture. Try to find some babyback rib joint here in northeastern Montana that knows how to barbeque.

[mquast53000]

Strangely, I have to disagree with the blaming Bush part (at least in full) -- even if it means giving up my exclusion from blame. I place a much larger blame on the corrupt theocratic governments in the Middle East who keep the wealth for themselves, starve their own people, and then preach anti-Westernism (via religion) to deflect the blame of their own sins on us. We add a little to that with our policies (although supporting Israel is the main one, and that's a tough subject to get my arms around -- they are a rare functioning democracy, but they don't make supporting them very easy), but I think most of their hate found its roots at home, and had nothing to do directly with us.

All I am saying is that there are people that are going to act irrational, and they don’t care if the catalyst is a Newsweek’s story or Bush’s policy.
Did I pick up on a little Marxism in your thought process? Oppression through religion and divide and conquer… That is very Marxist of you BAC…

[SonomaCat]

Strangely, I have to disagree with the blaming Bush part (at least in full) -- even if it means giving up my exclusion from blame. I place a much larger blame on the corrupt theocratic governments in the Middle East who keep the wealth for themselves, starve their own people, and then preach anti-Westernism (via religion) to deflect the blame of their own sins on us. We add a little to that with our policies (although supporting Israel is the main one, and that's a tough subject to get my arms around -- they are a rare functioning democracy, but they don't make supporting them very easy), but I think most of their hate found its roots at home, and had nothing to do directly with us.

All I am saying is that there are people that are going to act irrational, and they don’t care if the catalyst is a Newsweek’s story or Bush’s policy.
Did I pick up on a little Marxism in your thought process? Oppression through religion and divide and conquer… That is very Marxist of you BAC…

I'm not following you on the Marxist thing ... I don't remember advocating oppression of any kind. Well, except to the extent that Marx was against monarchies ... but I prefer secular democracies myself.

[mquast53000]

You are simply saying the same thing that Marx said. I thought that you knew that… I guess you were reinventing the wheel and didn’t even know it… Most people don't really know what Marx really taught, but your statement hit on his major points.


These points:

I place a much larger blame on the corrupt theocratic governments in the Middle East who keep the wealth for themselves, starve their own people, and then preach anti-Westernism (via religion) to deflect the blame of their own sins on us.