Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays

['93HonoluluCat]

They are not "advertising to all their customers" by excluding "Merry Christmas." They are simply removing the "offensive elements." "Advertising to all their customers" would mean offering items that not only bear the "Merry Christmas" wording, but also "Happy Hanukkah" or "Happy Festivus."

You can't only have the highest profile holiday, you have to have the ONLY holiday in December (ignoring, of course, New Years, which is also a Holiday and, coupled with Christmas, would justify a "Happy Holidays" comment as well).

So, BAC, this is just about a theology with a big ego?

BTW, I don't have a problem with "Happy Holidays" when using it to reference Christmas and New Years'.

Ego ... yes, without a doubt.

I'm not following any other rationale for why a Christian would be offended by someone else saying/using the term "Happy Holidays" to include all religions in their greeting.

Again, there could be a couple of reasons for you to not understand or "not follow" why this is a big deal, but I believe it's primarily because you don't take the full Christian meaning of the holiday as legitimate.

Does the fact that Jews and Muslims and Hindus and atheists exist in our society offend you? If not, why would acknowledging them in our holiday greetings (commercially, personally, or via the President) offend you?

Their "existence in society" does not offend me. I may not agree with their theological base, but offended? No. What most Christians find offensive is the growing trend of removing Christian holiday well-wishing, and substituting it with either a non-greeting, or acknowledging another religion instead. Why is society so against offending <insert religion here>, but couldn't care less about the offense taken by Christians?

As to the supposed "ban" on items bearing the words "Christmas" on it at Target -- it's not true.

That is correct--but my main point about Target (if you'll reference my original post) was the removal of the bell-ringers from the stores' front doors.

[SonomaCat]

Aren't the bell ringers representatives of a non-profit organization doing fund-raising for their own operations? I really doubt that a decision about their removal or acceptance should in any way be seen as a direct "attack" on Christmas or Christians. It sounds more like a business decision relating to solicitation of contibutions on-premises, right or wrong.

Their "existence in society" does not offend me. I may not agree with their theological base, but offended? No. What most Christians find offensive is the growing trend of removing Christian holiday well-wishing, and substituting it with either a non-greeting, or acknowledging another religion instead. Why is society so against offending <insert religion here>, but couldn't care less about the offense taken by Christians?

So you're not offended by their existence, but you are offended by anyone acknowledging that they exist? Are you proposing a "Don't ask, don't tell" policy for anyone who is not a "Christian" in this country?

['93HonoluluCat]

Aren't the bell ringers representatives of a non-profit organization doing fund-raising for their own operations? I really doubt that a decision about their removal or acceptance should in any way be seen as a direct "attack" on Christmas or Christians. It sounds more like a business decision relating to solicitation of contibutions on-premises, right or wrong.

You can explain away all the removals of "offensive material" on a case-by-case basis very easily. Look at the larger picture, though--and I challenge you to explain the removal of Christian holiday display/advertisement at the same time making more prominent the holidays of other religions.

You can try to argue along the angle of multi-ethnic and polytheistic lines, but that would not explain the removal of the Christian holiday from public sight.

Their "existence in society" does not offend me. I may not agree with their theological base, but offended? No. What most Christians find offensive is the growing trend of removing Christian holiday well-wishing, and substituting it with either a non-greeting, or acknowledging another religion instead. Why is society so against offending <insert religion here>, but couldn't care less about the offense taken by Christians?

So you're not offended by their existence, but you are offended by anyone acknowledging that they exist?

Absolutely not. If you want to wish me a "Happy Festivus" or "Happy Hannukah," I will simply understand your meaning, and wish you a "Merry Christmas" in return, in the understanding that you won't take any more offense to my well-wishing than I did to yours.

[briannell]

You can explain away all the removals of "offensive material" on a case-by-case basis very easily. Look at the larger picture, though--and I challenge you to explain the removal of Christian holiday display/advertisement at the same time making more prominent the holidays of other religions.

You can try to argue along the angle of multi-ethnic and polytheistic lines, but that would not explain the removal of the Christian holiday from public sight.

read Matt 24 starting around verse 10, it sure sounds like society today fits this discription.

['93HonoluluCat]

read Matt 24 starting around verse 10, it sure sounds like society today fits this discription.

Absolutely.

[catsrback76]

You can explain away all the removals of "offensive material" on a case-by-case basis very easily. Look at the larger picture, though--and I challenge you to explain the removal of Christian holiday display/advertisement at the same time making more prominent the holidays of other religions.

You can try to argue along the angle of multi-ethnic and polytheistic lines, but that would not explain the removal of the Christian holiday from public sight.

read Matt 24 starting around verse 10, it sure sounds like society today fits this discription.

Not only fits it, but will fit it more as we move forward into it. The Christmas holiday celebrations were not a societal issue 30+ years ago, because to be American was to be "christian". It was much like being Italian mean't being Catholic. Culturally, we do not agree to the same rules as we once did.

We are now, nationally "post-Christian" and we need to understand that the prevailing worldview is driven by forces that will not accept or trumpet "Christianity" as our cultural norm. The good ol US of A is far more about economics and making a sawbuck than it is about anything else ( sorry for the generalization). That's why " I'm dreaming of a white Christmas" was being played on the radio starting Nov 1. The retailing were dreaming of Black Friday!!!

The gospel has not been successfully carried on the soundbites of political, economic, or even religious broadcastings. It has always been carried from one person to the next. Neighbor to neighbor.

When Jesus Christ invaded our world initially, no one knew it, because he surprised everyone with a quiet entrance. Born to a poor couple, in a cave for feeding animals, is not the way to get noticed if you're wanting to get everyones attention.

Only a few shepherds and three wisemen noticed his coming, simply because they payed attention to the signs. The sad fact is, most don't pay attention now either. It's a noisy world out there. It can keep you distracted from the most important things in life.

Whispering to all my friends who are listening, "Merry Christmas", and to the rest of you, God Bless you!

[briannell]

Not only fits it, but will fit it more as we move forward into it. The Christmas holiday celebrations were not a societal issue 30+ years ago, because to be American was to be "christian". It was much like being Italian mean't being Catholic. Culturally, we do not agree to the same rules as we once did.

We are now, nationally "post-Christian" and we need to understand that the prevailing worldview is driven by forces that will not accept or trumpet "Christianity" as our cultural norm. The good ol US of A is far more about economics and making a sawbuck than it is about anything else ( sorry for the generalization). That's why " I'm dreaming of a white Christmas" was being played on the radio starting Nov 1. The retailing were dreaming of Black Friday!!!

The gospel has not been successfully carried on the soundbites of political, economic, or even religious broadcastings. It has always been carried from one person to the next. Neighbor to neighbor.

When Jesus Christ invaded our world initially, no one knew it, because he surprised everyone with a quiet entrance. Born to a poor couple, in a cave for feeding animals, is not the way to get noticed if you're wanting to get everyones attention.

Only a few shepherds and three wisemen noticed his coming, simply because they payed attention to the signs. The sad fact is, most don't pay attention now either. It's a noisy world out there. It can keep you distracted from the most important things in life.

Whispering to all my friends who are listening, "Merry Christmas", and to the rest of you, God Bless you!

so TRUE yet so sad. Born so humbly, modest in every way that even as an adult Jesus Christ was so plain that it took Judas kissing him to identify him for the Cross. Yet he is the greatest gift that we (christians) could be given, yet not a one of us deserves it.

I felt that this particular scripture really nailed today's world view, and although it hurts to see others live worldly lives not Godly ones, we need to keep sowing deeds of love even if it is by simply saying "Merry Christmas". hope we reap a harvest full of new believers by this New Year's.

[SonomaCat]

So you're not offended by their existence, but you are offended by anyone acknowledging that they exist?

Absolutely not. If you want to wish me a "Happy Festivus" or "Happy Hannukah," I will simply understand your meaning, and wish you a "Merry Christmas" in return, in the understanding that you won't take any more offense to my well-wishing than I did to yours.

As long as neither party is doing it with a smirk as it being completely sincere, I completely agree (although I personally would wish the person the holiday specific to their own background as opposed to wishing them a happy day they don't celebrate, but in your example, they made the same mistake).

So this goes back to original point ... why is anyone offended by any of this stuff in the first place? My entire view on it is that it is silly for anyone to be hung up on the holiday greetings. In your last post, you seem to agree.

[SonomaCat]

You can explain away all the removals of "offensive material" on a case-by-case basis very easily. Look at the larger picture, though--and I challenge you to explain the removal of Christian holiday display/advertisement at the same time making more prominent the holidays of other religions.

I'm not sure if this is covered in the Bible verse quoted (my bibles are at home, honestly), but I think the answer is simple ... Jews and Muslims and Hindus and everyone else who isn't hung up on Jesus' presence in the adverstising flyers buys a lot of crap during December as well, and the point of advertising is to reach as large an audience as possible. Just like GWB (hence his "Happy Holidays" greeting card).

If you want to blame anything for this progression towards inclusion, blame capitalism and democracy.

[catsrback76]

You can explain away all the removals of "offensive material" on a case-by-case basis very easily. Look at the larger picture, though--and I challenge you to explain the removal of Christian holiday display/advertisement at the same time making more prominent the holidays of other religions.

I'm not sure if this is covered in the Bible verse quoted (my bibles are at home, honestly), but I think the answer is simple ... Jews and Muslims and Hindus and everyone else who isn't hung up on Jesus' presence in the adverstising flyers buys a lot of crap during December as well, and the point of advertising is to reach as large an audience as possible. Just like GWB (hence his "Happy Holidays" greeting card).

If you want to blame anything for this progression towards inclusion, blame capitalism and democracy.

I Agree BAC.

Brian McLaren the author of A Generous Orthodoxy, writes,

"The fact is, all religions of the world are under threat-- from fundamentalist Islam, but more from the McDonaldization and Wal-Martization of the world, from global consumerism, from forces that emanate not from Arabia or Afghanistan, but from New York and Hollywood--forces that make all religions equally superfluous, trivial compared to the lust for a new car or a new pair of jeans."

['93HonoluluCat]

You can explain away all the removals of "offensive material" on a case-by-case basis very easily. Look at the larger picture, though--and I challenge you to explain the removal of Christian holiday display/advertisement at the same time making more prominent the holidays of other religions.

You can try to argue along the angle of multi-ethnic and polytheistic lines, but that would not explain the removal of the Christian holiday from public sight.

read Matt 24 starting around verse 10, it sure sounds like society today fits this discription.

Not only fits it, but will fit it more as we move forward into it. The Christmas holiday celebrations were not a societal issue 30+ years ago, because to be American was to be "christian". It was much like being Italian mean't being Catholic. Culturally, we do not agree to the same rules as we once did.

We are now, nationally "post-Christian" and we need to understand that the prevailing worldview is driven by forces that will not accept or trumpet "Christianity" as our cultural norm. The good ol US of A is far more about economics and making a sawbuck than it is about anything else ( sorry for the generalization). That's why " I'm dreaming of a white Christmas" was being played on the radio starting Nov 1. The retailing were dreaming of Black Friday!!!

The gospel has not been successfully carried on the soundbites of political, economic, or even religious broadcastings. It has always been carried from one person to the next. Neighbor to neighbor.

When Jesus Christ invaded our world initially, no one knew it, because he surprised everyone with a quiet entrance. Born to a poor couple, in a cave for feeding animals, is not the way to get noticed if you're wanting to get everyones attention.

Only a few shepherds and three wisemen noticed his coming, simply because they payed attention to the signs. The sad fact is, most don't pay attention now either. It's a noisy world out there. It can keep you distracted from the most important things in life.

Whispering to all my friends who are listening, "Merry Christmas", and to the rest of you, God Bless you!

Amen, Brother/Sister--and Merry Christmas to you, as well!

['93HonoluluCat]

If you want to blame anything for this progression towards inclusion, blame capitalism and democracy.

Absolutely.

The bigger issue is not one's choice of holiday greeting/well-wishing. The issue is the increasing marginalization of Christianity, in the guise of polytheism. It is to that I object.

[SonomaCat]

If you want to blame anything for this progression towards inclusion, blame capitalism and democracy.

Absolutely.

The bigger issue is not one's choice of holiday greeting/well-wishing. The issue is the increasing marginalization of Christianity, in the guise of polytheism. It is to that I object.

Isn't that merely people exercising their freedom of religion in this country?

Don't worry ... Christians are still "winning." The fact that other religions get mentioned at all now isn't a sign that Christianity is losing any power over this country. The current political landscape is proof of that. When we elect our first non-Christian (or non-fake Christian) President, then the tide can be said to have turned ... but that will probably never happen ... especially if our primary source of immigration continues to be Mexico and Central America.

[BWahlberg]

I've been kind of sitting on the sidelines with this whole thing, but I've been hearing the soundbites and seeing a few things on TV and whatnot.

To me, this whole thing seems blown out of proportion, and it seems the instigator this year was the UNfair and UNbalanced group over at Fox News. It almost seems as if since they've got not much else to bitch about right now, they'll just spark up this "war on Christmas."

Christianity starts in your heart and in your home, so whats the big deal if it's not being pushed on the public by a store you shop at? I guess I just don't see the big deal. My family celebrated Christmas, as do most of my friends, but I wouldn't want to force that holiday on people who don't celebrate it, thats why my family holiday cards say, "Merry Christmas" and the cards I send out to my clients and friends say "Happy Holidays."

Sorry about throwing that thought in from left field in the middle of the discussion, but just wanted to post my two cents.

PS - there are plenty of better reasons why America shouldn't be shopping at Wal-Mart than the whole "Happy Holidays" crap.

[SonomaCat]

There is also no small amount of irony around the fact that people (Fox, Falwell, etc.) are suggesting that signs of this straw man "War on Christmas" are evidenced by a lack of grandstanding/advertising specifically for Christmas at retail stores.

I always thought that the true Christian approach was to point out that shopping wasn't what Christmas was all about. So now if a store advertises to everyone, and not just specifically to Christians, they are wrong in doing so? Strange, strange times, indeed.

To break it all down and wrap it up in a bow ... this is a clunky marketing campaign by the people mentioned above to make money for themselves by tapping into the insecurities of the people who are in the vast majority of this country (Christians). By making up straw man arguments intended create a fear of a loss of power over our society by that majority (by creating this strange "victim" mentality for that same majority), they increase their ratings (Fox commentators) and motivate people to donate cash to their coffers (Falwell, etc.). It's just another example of fear marketing that has proven so effective time and time again. One day, everyone will figure out that the emperor is wearing no clothes (at least, that is my optimistic wish).

[briannell]

just a side note really.

while decorating the Christmas tree (not the Holiday tree) I tried to explain to my 6 year old the symbolism of the Christmas tree.

Evergreen - for Christ's everlasting love and life
Evergreen, because it points upward towards Heaven
Lights - because Christ is the light of the world
and isn't it amazing how by giving us all this happiness and joy while decorating our home it is at the same time dying for us, the way christ did on the Cross.
after all if it was not for us, that tree would not have been removed from where it was growing, cut down in it's prime, and made to die for our selfish reasons. Just like Christ died for our sins.

so, Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to my non-Christian friends. May everyone have a very blessed New Year's too!

[SonomaCat]

The tree certainly can be used to symbolize those things ... and if that's how one thinks of it, then in their heart and home, that's what it is.

But that's not where the tradition of the tree came from:

http://de.essortment.com/christmaspagan_rece.htm

EDIT: Ooh, and then I found this one ... from what appears to be Dana Carvey's church lady character ... only real!

http://www.exposingsatanism.org/christmas.htm

Maybe the people choosing not to celebrate Christmas are the only ones who are truly Christian? That's what this site proclaims. And she read it in the Bible, so it can't be wrong....

[briannell]

Thanks for that Brad, I just told Ben what I learned as a kid.

If anyone wants to learn about wreaths, or order one I know a REALLY great place to get them from. they ship anywhere, and you'll get it by Christmas. can testify to the quality of both product and business owner

['93HonoluluCat]

The tree certainly can be used to symbolize those things ... and if that's how one thinks of it, then in their heart and home, that's what it is.

But that's not where the tradition of the tree came from:

http://de.essortment.com/christmaspagan_rece.htm

EDIT: Ooh, and then I found this one ... from what appears to be Dana Carvey's church lady character ... only real!

http://www.exposingsatanism.org/christmas.htm

Maybe the people choosing not to celebrate Christmas are the only ones who are truly Christian? That's what this site proclaims. And she read it in the Bible, so it can't be wrong....

As you're so fond of pointing out, BAC, there is more than one side to the story. Here's my Link-o-rama to show that "other side" you crave so:
http://www.christianitytoday.com/histor ... dec14.html
http://internetpadre.com/Christmas/xmastraditions.html
And, specifically, here's the Christmas Tree origin:
http://internetpadre.com/Christmas/xmas ... mas%20tree

[SonomaCat]

Yeah, I know. People have been pretty good at claiming that traditions and stories that pre-date Christianity and also show up in Christian practices/stories are purely coincidental (or lies, or acts of Satan, etc.) for a long, long time.

I'm not sure of the motivation for that spin, but it certainly does exist.