Pres Bush will say we are addicted to oil tonight

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grizbeer
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Post by grizbeer » Thu Feb 02, 2006 3:38 pm

Stevicat wrote: Tax cuts and tax increases take time to have an impact. Clinton benefited from the Reagan tax cuts in the 80s. He took the top individual rates from over 90% to the low 30%. This is what helped created the boom in the 80s that Clinton rode along with the technology boom he enjoyed. His tax increases (including Bush #1's increase) started to have an impact on the economy towards the end of his second term and into Bush's first few years. Bush's tax cuts are now impacting the economy now which you even admit is doing better.

Tax cuts put more money into the pockets of the taxpayers which allow them to fuel the economy. To put it simply, they have more money to buy a first house or a bigger house which employs contractors and sub contractors to build, loan officers to process the loans, people to process titles, and real estate agents to help sell and buy. Multiply this across the country and one can see that the contractors, banks, title companies, and real estate offices have to hire more people to handle the volume which puts more money in these people's pockets which increases the Treasury's tax receipts. More people employed who pay taxes. It's a beautiful system and it works when allowed to.
Just to muddle things up a little bit Stevi the main benefit to the economy from tax cuts isn't the extra money it leaves in taxpayers pockets - the impact of spending those tax dollars, whether from taxpayers or the government - is virtually the same. The real benefit from tax cuts is the incentive to tax payers.

lowering tax rates gives more incentive for people to earn more, or at least report more income, and that is what fuels growth in the economy. It is a subtle difference, but an important one.

ReMax the old "rich are getting richer, poor are getting poorer" line, or alternatively "more people live in poverty than ever before", is as lame an argument as can be made. First of all, how can anyone possible say the poor are getting poorer? Poor today means you have 2 tv's and a piece of crap car. 50 years ago that meant you were middle class. 100 years ago you were rich if you had indoor plumbing. Clearly what would qualify as poor today would qualify as extravagently rich 100 years ago, yet every year the media trots out that tired line. Yes the rich are getting richer (and why wouldn't that be a good thing, do we really want the rich to be poorer?), but the poor are better off than they have ever been as well. Every year we put more people in poverty by moving the poverty line.

The beauty of the american system is not that everybody will be economically equal, but that you have a chance to change your economic status. Look how many "high tech" millionaires were created in the last 15 years, and how many of those people came from middle class or poor families. Imagine the impact on society if those people, due to excessive tax burdens and other policies designed to make everyone even, did not have the chance to become millionaires, and didn't make the sacrafices and effort to create that wealth.

Of course if you think you are under-taxed you are always free to send more money to the government - they will accept whatever you send them!



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Stevicat
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Post by Stevicat » Thu Feb 02, 2006 4:29 pm

You are absolutely correct, grizbeer!

To add to your point, our system gaurantees equal opportunity, not equal results. If I have the ability, drive, idea, talent, etc., our system allows me to take it as far as I can or want and make as much money as I possibly can from it. If I want to sit on my butt all day and not do anything, why should I deserve anything?



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Post by ChiOCat » Thu Feb 02, 2006 4:43 pm

grizbeer wrote:Of course if you think you are under-taxed you are always free to send more money to the government - they will accept whatever you send them!
That's what irks me about all the "Celebrity Politicians" that want to save the world. How bout they donate 1/2 their earnings to chairties, that would do a whole lot more than raising taxes on the rest of us Americans. I know, they might have to downgrade to a half million dollar house, but if their concern is earnest and true, it's a small price to pay.

Ted Kennedy could probably also donate a bit more of his meager estate, rather than blather on about the "wealthy getting wealthier."


"We are all vulnerable, and all fallible, with mortality our only certainty..." - Dr Kenneth Bock

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BWahlberg
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Post by BWahlberg » Thu Feb 02, 2006 4:55 pm

grizbeer wrote: ReMax the old "rich are getting richer, poor are getting poorer" line, or alternatively "more people live in poverty than ever before", is as lame an argument as can be made. First of all, how can anyone possible say the poor are getting poorer? Poor today means you have 2 tv's and a piece of crap car. 50 years ago that meant you were middle class. 100 years ago you were rich if you had indoor plumbing. Clearly what would qualify as poor today would qualify as extravagently rich 100 years ago, yet every year the media trots out that tired line. Yes the rich are getting richer (and why wouldn't that be a good thing, do we really want the rich to be poorer?), but the poor are better off than they have ever been as well. Every year we put more people in poverty by moving the poverty line.
Wow... :?

So living in filth, with bad education, no healthcare, and not making enough money to sustain in today's world is ok just because it was par for the course in the past?

I guess I would like to think I'm someone who cares about those living less fortunate than me. The rich get richer, yes, they make more money than most will ever need, if they make a little less, I have a feeling it won't hurt them that much. But the lower class, if they just had a little bit more available to them, I'm not even meaning money, but better education, lower cost health care, the chance to pay for medication, or transportation, their lives would be a world different.

The thing is Bush & co. are more concerned about the wealthy by giving them even bigger tax cuts while ignoring the growing poverty rate.

I suppose the poor really cannot get "poorer" but their numbers are increasing, much quicker than the numbers of wealthy people in America.

Grizbeer, if you could only offer assistance to one person, who would it be;

A family making $3,000,000 a year or a family making $8,000 a year?



grizbeer
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Post by grizbeer » Thu Feb 02, 2006 5:16 pm

Re/Max Griz wrote:
grizbeer wrote: ReMax the old "rich are getting richer, poor are getting poorer" line, or alternatively "more people live in poverty than ever before", is as lame an argument as can be made. First of all, how can anyone possible say the poor are getting poorer? Poor today means you have 2 tv's and a piece of crap car. 50 years ago that meant you were middle class. 100 years ago you were rich if you had indoor plumbing. Clearly what would qualify as poor today would qualify as extravagently rich 100 years ago, yet every year the media trots out that tired line. Yes the rich are getting richer (and why wouldn't that be a good thing, do we really want the rich to be poorer?), but the poor are better off than they have ever been as well. Every year we put more people in poverty by moving the poverty line.
Wow... :?

So living in filth, with bad education, no healthcare, and not making enough money to sustain in today's world is ok just because it was par for the course in the past?

I guess I would like to think I'm someone who cares about those living less fortunate than me. The rich get richer, yes, they make more money than most will ever need, if they make a little less, I have a feeling it won't hurt them that much. But the lower class, if they just had a little bit more available to them, I'm not even meaning money, but better education, lower cost health care, the chance to pay for medication, or transportation, their lives would be a world different.

The thing is Bush & co. are more concerned about the wealthy by giving them even bigger tax cuts while ignoring the growing poverty rate.

I suppose the poor really cannot get "poorer" but their numbers are increasing, much quicker than the numbers of wealthy people in America.

Grizbeer, if you could only offer assistance to one person, who would it be;

A family making $3,000,000 a year or a family making $8,000 a year?
Pretty good twist of my words there RE/Max - what I said is that things are not getting worse for poor people, like is commonly reported, but even the poorest of the ppor are better off than they were years ago - you can acknowledge the progress that has been made, or just continue to make inflamatory statements - I prefer to make judgements based on facts insted of hype, you make your own choice.

What kind of assitance am I offering to these hypothetical people? What will the results be of me offering this assistance? If I offer the person making $3mil the money will that go to create new jobs so that family making $8k can earn more? If I give it to the person making $8k will that encourage a family making $9k to earn less so they can also get the extra assistance? These are the type of questions I ask, and hope that our politicians ask before they spend our money.

Again feel free to spend your money any way you want to. Give it all away, to government or charities, it matters not to me what you do with your money. Work for free, or minimum wage - I mean you care so much about those less fotunate then you, how can you justify wasting money on season tickets for college athletics - shouldn't you be sending this money to the Pov, or donating to the school district? (see how easy it is to make value judgements about others?)

But what you do with your money doesn't matter to me, it only concerns me when you tell me what to do with my money. I didn't come from a wealthy family, my family doesn't own a top producing real estate agency or any other business that has been booming in recent years. I am hoping, through work and investments to eventually have that type of security for my family, but it is tough to get that the type of wealth built if the goverment takes it to redistribute to others.



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BWahlberg
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Post by BWahlberg » Thu Feb 02, 2006 5:35 pm

I appreciate your comments, a few things;

I do give to charities. RE/MAX is a company founded on individuals keeping all of their commissions, the Brokers are not meant to benefit from their agents, unlike a traditional Real Estate brokerage. Here its up to me to make my own money, I do not make anything from others, FYI.

I consider season tickets a lifstyle choice, but I understand what you're saying. I guess the point I was trying to get across was that I believe that we should take care of those in the greatest need more than others.



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