how's this working for you?

briannell · Post by **briannell** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 10:25 am

explain to me again why the prison system thinks it can rehabilitate these freaks.

Sex Offender Faces Charges in Idaho Deaths By NICHOLAS K. GERANIOS, Associated Press Writer
1 hour, 11 minutes ago

COEUR D'ALENE, Idaho - A convicted sex offender, already facing kidnapping charges in the abduction of two Idaho children, will be charged in the slayings of three people found dead at the children's home, prosecutors said.

Joseph Edward Duncan III, 42, was expected to appear in court Tuesday for a probable cause hearing, Kootenai County prosecutor Bill Douglas said.

Duncan is being held in the alleged kidnapping of Dylan and Shasta Groene, who were declared missing in May after police found the bound and beaten bodies of their mother, her boyfriend and the children's older brother in their home.

Eight-year-old Shasta was spotted July 2 in a Coeur d'Alene restaurant with Duncan, who was arrested. The body of Dylan, 9, was found at a remote campsite in western Montana last week after Shasta gave authorities information about where the children were held.

Kootenai County Sheriff Rocky Watson has said he believes the victims in the house were killed so the perpetrator could kidnap the two young siblings for the purposes of sex. He has said the victims were apparently chosen at random, although the killings were carefully planned.

Authorities believe Duncan is also the sole person responsible for the deaths of Brenda Kay Groene, 40; Slade Groene, 13; and Mark Edward McKenzie, 37.

Shasta has been released from Kootenai Medical Center to her father, Steve Groene.

Duncan was released on $15,000 bail earlier this year in Becker County, Minn., after being charged with molesting a 6-year-old boy. Police in Fargo, N.D., where Duncan lived, had been looking for him since he failed to check in with a probation agent there in May.

Police said he got the $15,000 from a Fargo businessman, Joe Crary, 51, who said he became acquainted with Duncan on bicycle trails around Fargo.

"In my contact with him, I saw him like many others apparently did — he was polite, soft spoken, and seemed sincere in turning his life around," Crary said in a statement faxed Monday night to The Forum newspaper of Fargo.

"I was trying to help him get things straightened out, just like I have tried to help many others over the years," he told the newspaper.

Crary said Duncan told him he was working on a college degree and holding down two jobs. "Furthermore, he assured me he was innocent of the charges in Becker County," Crary wrote in his statement.

El_Gato · Post by **El_Gato** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 11:37 am

We've been talking all week about how it's time for a little vigilante justice in the West again.

This guy has NO business ever taking another breath on this planet. I'd have no problem joining a lynch mob in Idaho to pay a little visit to Mr. Duncan.

The interesting thing is that if he had only committed the kidnapping and sexual assaults, I have no doubt that someday he'd be out on the street and on his own again. Hopefully he'll be convicted for the murders as well and that will ensure that he either goes away forever (not the optimal solution) or that he dies (DING DING DING DING).

Does Idaho have the death penalty?

geogfather · Post by **geogfather** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 12:16 pm

El_Gato wrote:
Does Idaho have the death penalty?

Yes it does. Lethal injection, although the firing squad is an option if "injection is impractical"

I wouldnt hold your breath though as only one person has been executed in idaho since the reinstatement of the death penalty in 1973. Idaho has a pretty strong reputation of giving people life without parole rather than that death penalty. although there are 20 people currently on death row in Idaho.

I personally am against the death penalty in nearly all cases. This however is not one of those and I hope this guy suffers the savage fury of a bullet to the chest. However, if he gets life without parole, he will be killed in prison within 2 years, as the inmate population cant stand these people. and there arnt may things wosre than a pissed off group of prisoners. just ask Jeffrey Dahmer and his broomstick.

Bleedinbluengold · Post by **Bleedinbluengold** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:00 pm

you guys are too humane...I would be more inclined toward how the main character in Tom Clancy's "Without Remorse" dealt with the rapist/killer of his girlfriend.

If you get my drift.

Ponycat · Post by **Ponycat** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:01 pm

Does Montana get jurisdiction over the death of the little boy. I hope not, Idaho is much tougher on there criminal's than Montana is.

I'm sick of politicians saying we can't build our way out of prison overcrowding, that is just liberal BS that everyone falls for. It takes convicts about one run through the system to realize they will be let out weather they do any programming or not (most the time not even that long.)

Also, Judges, and prosecutors need to be held accountable for there light sentences and bonds.

El_Gato · Post by **El_Gato** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:02 pm

I don't necessarily see the death penalty being a deterrent, as logic might lead us to believe.

But I do believe in fiscal conservatism and that ALONE is reason enough to put a bullet in this monsters brain. I agree with you, this creep will probably outlive most of us and thus the taxpayers will get to feed him, clothe him, house him, PROTECT him (no doubt he will receive additional protection in prison for the reasons you stated, at least initially), keep him healthy, provide legal services, etc. etc...

The funniest (saddest?) part of this, to me, is that if he does in fact receive a "life without the possibility of parole" sentence, why would we ever give him medical treatment? In other words, why on earth would we spend a dime to prolong his life by treating any/all illnesses and/or ailments he might develop? Irony is pretty ironic sometimes, ain't it?

Bleedinbluengold · Post by **Bleedinbluengold** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:41 pm

Montana won't file any charges the last I read. The Mineral County Sheriff concluded that they would just get in the way of Idaho and Federal charges. I've got no problem with that...

Hell's Bells · Post by **Hell's Bells** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:50 pm

its my only wish that the judge in fargo nd gets some sorta punishment for letting this happen....a guy charged with molestation that just got out of prison for rapeing (yes rape) a 15 year old boy at gunpoint...btw high risk for offending again apprearntly...yeah lets give him 15 grand bond instead of just turning him over to the prison to wait out his sentance.

Ponycat · Post by **Ponycat** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:41 pm

There is no excuse for that small of a bond, and the prosecutor should be held accountable for only asking for a $25,000 bond. If he truly thought $25,000 was enough he should have asked for $50,000.

The judge also stated he wasn't aware of the offenders criminal history. Inexcusable for both the prosecutor not to tell the judge and judge for not asking.

briannell · Post by **briannell** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 8:51 am

O'Rielly factor on Fox News made some great points. video clips on Duncan and the screw up judge.

briannell · Post by **briannell** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 10:27 am

As a general rule i'm anti-death penalty, but torture of this evil man is fine with me.

-rebecca

Convict Said to Brag About Idaho Slayings By NICHOLAS K. GERANIOS, Associated Press Writer
1 hour, 42 minutes ago

COEUR D'ALENE, Idaho - Convicted sex offender Joseph Edward Duncan bragged to his 8-year-old captive during more than six weeks on the run, telling her how he used a shotgun and hammer to kill her family after staking out their home for days, court documents show.

Shasta Groene remembered it all and has been providing authorities with details that are building a strong case against Duncan.

Duncan was charged Tuesday with three counts of first-degree murder and three counts of first-degree kidnapping in the deaths of Shasta's mother Brenda Groene, 40, her brother Slade, 13, and Groene's boyfriend Mark McKenzie, 37. If convicted, he could face the death penalty.

"He told her he was out driving around looking for children to kidnap," Kootenai County sheriff's detective Brad Maskell testified during a probable cause hearing. "He ... saw her playing in the yard with her brother and wearing a bathing suit. At that point he chose them as possible kidnap victims."

Public defender John Adams declined to comment after the hearing. "We try to do our litigation in the courtroom," he said.

Shasta's ordeal began when she heard her mother call her into the living room early on the morning of May 16. Her mother, brother and McKenzie were bound with zip-ties and duct tape.

Duncan then bound her and Dylan and left them on the ground outside near a swing set. Shasta said she heard McKenzie yell out several times, and at one point they saw Slade stagger, incoherent and bleeding profusely from the head, out of the home. The children yelled for Slade to untie them, but he was unable to respond.

Shasta remembered that Duncan wore dark gloves and had a shotgun and night-vision goggles. She also recalled the brand name of the hammer used to bludgeon the victims, which Duncan showed her after the attacks.

During weeks of captivity at a remote campsite in western Montana, Duncan told Shasta that he cased the family's home for two to three days, using his goggles to look in the windows and study the family's habits and the layout.

"Shasta was very specific that Mr. Duncan is the only person responsible for these acts," Maskell added.

Shasta was rescued early in the morning of July 2, when employees at a Denny's restaurant in Coeur d'Alene recognized her and called police. She has since been reunited with her father.

Dylan was found dead in Montana last week.

Duncan had been charged with kidnapping Shasta and Dylan, but those state charges will be dismissed and instead handled by the federal court system because the youngsters were taken across a state line, authorities said.

Officials have alleged that the children were repeatedly sexually molested during their ordeal, and sheriff Rocky Watson has said he believes the motive for the killings was to acquire the children for sex.

While it is The Associated Press' policy not to identify alleged victims of sexual assault in most cases, the search for Shasta and her brother was so heavily publicized that their names were already widely known.

Duncan was released on $15,000 bail earlier this year in Becker County, Minn., after being charged with molesting a 6-year-old boy. Police in Fargo, N.D., where Duncan lived, had been looking for him since he failed to check in with a probation agent there in May.

Duncan had spent more than a decade in prison for sexually assaulting a 14-year-old boy at gunpoint in Tacoma, Wash.

Grizlaw · Post by **Grizlaw** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 1:08 pm

Here's my take on this situation:

First, we need to recognize that this scenario happens all the time: criminal commits terrible crime, goes to prison, gets released, commits same terrible crime again. When it happens, people always criticize the judge, the prosecutor, the police, and everyone else for "allowing" the guy to get out. None of this is new...

It is a fact of life that convicted criminals are more likely to commit the same crime again than are people who have not previously done so. Convicted murderers are more likely to kill again; people convicted of assault are more likely to attack someone again; drunk drivers are more likely to drive drunk again; speeders are more likely to speed again, and yes, rapists are more likely to rape again. Everyone recognizes the problem, but finding the solution is not as easy as it might seem.

It's easy to read a case about a brutal violent criminal who is a repeat offender and think to yourself that guy never should have gotten out. I sympathize with the sentiment, but my point is that the line has to be drawn somewhere. We can't give *every* violent criminal a life prison term (or the death penalty), so where should the line be drawn?

People argue that rapists should get life sentences, because if they get out they are likely to re-offend. Fine, but what about other violent criminals? Life sentences as well? What about drunk drivers? After all, convicted drunk drivers are more likely to drive drunk again, and a repeat drunk driver could very well kill someone -- should we give them life sentences as well, on the theory that if they get out of jail they're only going to drive drunk again?

Mind you, I'm not arguing that all of these criminals are the same; I am well aware that rape and drunk driving are not the same thing. I'm just pointing out that it's a slippery slope. I don't know what the answer is, but it's a lot easier to get outraged and argue that we should keep everybody locked up forever than it is to actually do so.

catatac · Post by **catatac** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 1:24 pm

I agree that it's a slippery slope, but the line you talk about needs to be moved IMO. Somebody convicted of raping someone at gunpoint should get a life sentence. ESPECIALLY if they are repeat offenders.

Grizlaw · Post by **Grizlaw** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 2:07 pm

catatac wrote:I agree that it's a slippery slope, but the line you talk about needs to be moved IMO. Somebody convicted of raping someone at gunpoint should get a life sentence. ESPECIALLY if they are repeat offenders.

I do agree that someone in this scenario should get life in prison. I guess my point is that the line has to be *somewhere*, and it's not that easy to get people to agree on where to put it. Sure, you and I agree that someone convicted of raping at gunpoint should get a life sentence. What about someone convicted of rape without a gun? What about statutory rape? Does it make a difference if the guy is 19 and the girl is 15, as opposed to the girl being 8? Or should they all get life sentences? What about other violent criminals (armed robbers, etc.)?

It's easy to say that the really *bad* cases should be on "our" side of the line, but determining exactly where the line should be is more difficult. That was my only point. Also, I'm sure if we think about it, each of us can form an opinion about all of the questions I just posed, but getting enough of a consensus to bring about a legislative change is always difficult as well...

Ponycat · Post by **Ponycat** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 2:24 pm

Grizlaw, I agree 100% with what your saying, there is a definate grey area, but in the case in Idaho this wasn't a grey area person. The judge and to a lesser extent the prosecutor messed up and need to be held accountable.

catatac · Post by **catatac** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:32 pm

But it’s always the knee-jerk reaction to lay blame after these things and often times it’s the system that’s to blame, not individuals. Judges usually have guidelines to work within. A point GL was making I think.

Grizlaw · Post by **Grizlaw** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 5:04 pm

catatac wrote:But it’s always the knee-jerk reaction to lay blame after these things and often times it’s the system that’s to blame, not individuals. Judges usually have guidelines to work within. A point GL was making I think.

That was part of it, yes. I don't think I'd be as quick to blame "the system" either, though.

The system is what it is; it will never be perfect. Part of my point is that the only way to prevent things like this from happening is to lock up *all* violent criminals forever, and that's just not realistic. With the benefit of hindsight, it's easy to look at this case and see "gee, the judge really should have kept this guy locked up; look what happened," but when you're the judge and you see hundreds of these people per year, how are you supposed to know which ones are going to go out and rape someone else if they're freed?

The only solutions are to either lock all violent criminals up for life (impractical), or else accept the fact that *some* violent offenders are going to re-offend after they get out, and when it happens, it's not automatically the judge's/prosecutor's/cop's fault.

Ponycat · Post by **Ponycat** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 5:27 pm

Grizlaw, I agree this is inevitable, but I deal with judges and prosecutors almost daily, as obviously you do as well, and IMHO there is a big differance in many. I thinks there are those that realize which cases need a closer look and do so and those that just want to get the courtroom cleared and this case seems like the latter. I could be wrong but from the interview I saw with the judge this seemed like the case.

I would be interested to see what type of programming the offender completed or had offered to him during his previous incarceration. This is also a big problem, ie. no programming available or too long of a waiting list to get it before a sentence expires.

briannell · Post by **briannell** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 10:08 pm

it's not just Duncan. like Ponycat I'm curious as to what type of programs were offered and which were completed. Especially since this guy came out of WA and i live here.

-rebecca

how's this working for you?

how's this working for you?

My take...