The Bobcat Nation

Teachers' pay a key part of school funding debate

The Bozeman Daily Chronicle
Editor's note: This is the second of two stories on the progress of the Legislature's Quality Schools Interim Committee.

By GAIL SCHONTZLER, Chronicle Staff Writer

Montana teachers' pay averages $37,184, almost $10,000 less than the national average, which means Montana ranks 47th in the nation.

Yet Montana teachers are also making 35 percent more than the average worker in the state, who earns around $27,000. By that measure, Montana ranks seventh in the nation.

How much Montana teachers should be paid is one of the key questions being considered by eight lawmakers serving on the Quality Schools Interim Committee.

Their job is to propose a new school funding system to the Legislature that can satisfy the Montana Supreme Court's ruling that the current system is unconstitutional.

Teacher pay matters because it's the biggest part of staff salaries and benefits, which make up about three-quarters of school budgets.

And one of the main arguments made by school plaintiffs to the courts is that Montana school districts often can't pay enough to hire and keep qualified teachers.

One problem facing policy makers is that not all school districts face the same problems.

For example, Bozeman School District recently had 30 applicants for a high school math teaching job. It typically gets 100 applicants for elementary teacher openings.

Yet in tiny Sand Coulee, near Great Falls, Lynn Scalia recalls having a terrible time attracting teachers when she was principal and superintendent there.

"We had a horrendous time, a very difficult time bringing teachers up to the plains," said Scalia, now principal and superintendent with the Monforton School District at Four Corners. "We had a very difficult time paying near what bigger towns are paying."

Tempting Las Vegas

It doesn't help Montana schools to attract teachers when the state gets national publicity for having the lowest starting teachers' salaries in the country.

That's what happened this month when Education Week magazine quoted the head of the nation's largest teachers' union saying that Montana has the lowest beginning teachers' pay, $23,800.

The Bozeman School District has worked to make improving teachers' pay a priority.

Starting pay for Bozeman teachers was $24,264 in 2002, and when Jim Humble first moved to town, he saw that as a problem.

"I came from Kentucky and we were paying $28,000," said Humble, Bozeman schools' personnel director. "That was Kentucky, for crying out loud."

After barely avoiding a threatened teachers' strike three years ago, Bozeman administrators and school board trustees made a major effort to repair relations with teachers. They agreed that teachers' pay needed to be improved so teachers could afford Bozeman's high housing costs.

As a result, Bozeman's starting teachers' pay has been steadily raised and this fall will reach $28,520.

Bozeman's top teacher salary is $55,410 for someone with a master's degree, 20 years experience and 45 continuing education credits.

The average for Bozeman teachers will be $41,079 this fall, Humble said.

So the average Bozeman teacher is making more than the Montana average of $37,184, but less than the U.S. average of $46,752, according to the 2004 salary survey by the National Education Association.

Estimates vary on just how many teaching graduates from Montana colleges are lured out of state by higher salaries. Linda McCulloch, state superintendent of instruction, cites a study, "Who Will Teach Montana's Children," that reported 71 percent of newly-trained teachers leave.

At the same time, MSU's most recent survey of graduates found that only 38 percent of students from its Education, Health & Human Development College left Montana.

The idea of other states attracting Montana graduates isn't an abstract issue for Humble. When he goes to job recruiting fairs to talk with potential new teachers, he knows they may be considering a job in booming Las Vegas. The Clark County school district offers $28,491 starting pay, $2,000 signing bonus and no income tax.

Bozeman can offer a great quality of life, but money still matters to new college grads, who typically leave school with around $20,000 in debt.

"Personally, I believe beginning teachers should make $30,000," Humble said. "I think you get what you pay for."

Montana pay declines

To sort through all the complicated data on teachers' pay, the Quality Schools Interim Committee hired two MSU economists, Doug Young and Christiana Stoddard. They plan to have a recommendation by Sept. 30 on an appropriate pay range for teachers.

The economists are gathering data on whether hiring problems are widespread or concentrated in a few regions or fields. Young said they'll compare turnover rates to salaries, geographic isolation and composition of students.

They're also looking into whether Montana schools are having more trouble hiring and keeping teachers as their salaries have fallen.

Montana teachers' average pay has declined by 2.5 percent in the past 30 years in inflation-adjusted dollars, according to a recent report in the Montana Policy Review, co-authored by Young.

In the same period, teachers' salaries nationwide rose by nearly 10 percent, the article said.

The article prompted a question from Sen. Dave Lewis, R-Helena, at the quality committee's most recent meeting. He said it sounded like Young may have already made up his mind on the issue. If so, Lewis asked, why was the committee paying the economists $24,660 to study teachers' pay?

The paragraph Lewis questioned cited statistics showing that while Montana teachers' salaries rank near the bottom nationally, teachers earn 35 percent more than the average Montana worker.

"Teachers may be tempted to leave the state for higher pay elsewhere," the article said, "but teaching remains an attractive occupation if one intends to stay in Montana."

Young stood by the article, but said he hasn't made up his mind about the issues and that the economists are still gathering data.

At the Bozeman School District, Superintendent Mike Redburn said comparing teachers' income to other jobs in Montana ignores how much they can earn by leaving the state. When teachers are hired, they want to be able to buy a house, send their children to school in the same district where they teach, and save money for their kids' education.

"It's not been unusual for people to come in after they've signed a contract and hand it back," Redburn said. "They say, 'Sorry, I can't find a place to live that I can afford.'"

Humble also doesn't see a lot of merit in comparing Montana teachers' pay to what other workers in the state earn. Not every worker has a college degree and teaching certificate.

"What other jobs in Two Dot require four years of college?" Humble asked.

Gail Schontzler is at gails@dailychronicle.com

here's an idea: attract better industry here. Once we get better jobs we will have more tax money and therefore better salary for the teachers

Does anybody have any stats on the hourly income of teachers as compared to other professions (including others that require 4 year degrees), factoring in the benefits (insurance, pension, etc.)?

I know teachers aren't paid a lot in Montana, but is anyone? Is it just me, or do teachers complain about being paid poorly at a much higher proportional rate than any other profession, including many that are probably paid much worse and worked much harder?

I know that's what teacher's unions are for -- to shape PR to get more sympathy to try to get more power for the union, but after awhile, even people who are otherwise sympathethic start to turn a deaf ear to the drumbeat.

Bay Area Cat wrote:Does anybody have any stats on the hourly income of teachers as compared to other professions (including others that require 4 year degrees), factoring in the benefits (insurance, pension, etc.)?

I know teachers aren't paid a lot in Montana, but is anyone? Is it just me, or do teachers complain about being paid poorly at a much higher proportional rate than any other profession, including many that are probably paid much worse and worked much harder?

I know that's what teacher's unions are for -- to shape PR to get more sympathy to try to get more power for the union, but after awhile, even people who are otherwise sympathethic start to turn a deaf ear to the drumbeat.

what you would have to do is factor in someones salary, multiply it by .67 and then you have a their salary if they worked as long in a year as a teacher

All I know is that the 3 best teachers I had in High School stopped teaching and took jobs elsewhere, usually working with people having nothing even resembling a college degree but got paid far more that teachers. I personally think MOST teachers are underpaid, but I believe the teachers unions have as much to do with that as anyone.

Hell's Bells wrote:what you would have to do is factor in someones salary, multiply it by .67 and then you have a their salary if they worked as long in a year as a teacher

Thank a teacher if you can multiply by .67

Hell's Bells wrote:

Bay Area Cat wrote:Does anybody have any stats on the hourly income of teachers as compared to other professions (including others that require 4 year degrees), factoring in the benefits (insurance, pension, etc.)?

I know teachers aren't paid a lot in Montana, but is anyone? Is it just me, or do teachers complain about being paid poorly at a much higher proportional rate than any other profession, including many that are probably paid much worse and worked much harder?

I know that's what teacher's unions are for -- to shape PR to get more sympathy to try to get more power for the union, but after awhile, even people who are otherwise sympathethic start to turn a deaf ear to the drumbeat.

what you would have to do is factor in someones salary, multiply it by .67 and then you have a their salary if they worked as long in a year as a teacher

You also have to realize that teachers don't work 40 hour weeks. First year teachers work closer to 70 or 80 hour weeks.

wbtfg wrote:You also have to realize that teachers don't work 40 hour weeks. First year teachers work closer to 70 or 80 hour weeks.

Sorry, but I'm calling b/s. I have enough friends and ex-girlfriends who are young teachers to know this to be untrue.

I'm not saying that there might not be *some* teachers who work this hard, but it's not normal or necessary.

Grizlaw wrote:

wbtfg wrote:You also have to realize that teachers don't work 40 hour weeks. First year teachers work closer to 70 or 80 hour weeks.

Sorry, but I'm calling b/s. I have enough friends and ex-girlfriends who are young teachers to know this to be untrue.

I'm not saying that there might not be *some* teachers who work this hard, but it's not normal or necessary.

well gl there is actually prepping for class...there is a class on it. i took it not much fun

Hell's Bells wrote:well gl there is actually prepping for class...there is a class on it. i took it not much fun

I realize that, Hells. I actually taught a review course while I was in law school, and I realize how much prep work goes into teaching a single course, let alone teaching an entire curriculum.

Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying teachers don't work hard, I'm only calling b/s on the "70-80 hours" claim, because I know that's not true. You wanna know how I know that? Simple: I actually do average about 75 hours a week in the office, and my teacher friends have a lot more free time than I do.

Looking at it more concretely, think about it in terms of what an 80 hour week actually consists of. The average schoolday starts at, say, 8:30 am and goes until 3:00 (this is in Butte, where I attended school -- if anyone else's school district started at 8:00, sorry; I mean no slight to the teachers in those districts). Anyway...so the actual school day is 6 1/2 hours, with a half hour for lunch and probably an empty period at some point during the day -- so let's say the average teacher spends 5 1/2 hours per day actually teaching.

Ok -- now, an 80-hour workweek means that each workday is sixteen hours long, so after school ends at 3:00, the average teacher still has 10 1/2 hours of work to do. In other words, with class ending at 3:00, the average teacher is going to go home at 1:30 am, assuming he/she doesn't take a dinner break anywhere -- if he takes a dinner break at some point, he's going home at 2:30. Is that what you're telling me the average teacher's workday is like?

briannell wrote: Montana teachers' pay averages $37,184, almost $10,000 less than the national average, which means Montana ranks 47th in the nation.

Yet Montana teachers are also making 35 percent more than the average worker in the state, who earns around $27,000. By that measure, Montana ranks seventh in the nation.

That's what happened this month when Education Week magazine quoted the head of the nation's largest teachers' union saying that Montana has the lowest beginning teachers' pay, $23,800.

1) $37,184 a year in montana is actually pretty good money
2) $23,000 a year....called "entry level pay"

INCOME IN 1999

http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/QT ... =04000US30

Households
359,070
100.0

Less than $10,000
40,535
11.3

$10,000 to $14,999
31,864
8.9

$15,000 to $24,999
61,573
17.1

$25,000 to $34,999
55,217
15.4

$35,000 to $49,999
65,393
18.2

$50,000 to $74,999
61,505
17.1

$75,000 to $99,999
23,007
6.4

$100,000 to $149,999
13,071
3.6

$150,000 to $199,999
3,182
0.9

$200,000 or more
3,723
1.0

Median household income (dollars)
33,024

sooo the average teacher in montana makes $37,000 a year yet the Median household income in montana in 1999 was $33,024 a year, so figure in an extra thousand but not nearly to the point of $37,000 a year. what that says, at best, a teacher in montana is getting paid more then average the salary of the typical family in montana.

Grizlaw wrote:

Hell's Bells wrote:well gl there is actually prepping for class...there is a class on it. i took it not much fun

I realize that, Hells. I actually taught a review course while I was in law school, and I realize how much prep work goes into teaching a single course, let alone teaching an entire curriculum.

Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying teachers don't work hard, I'm only calling b/s on the "70-80 hours" claim, because I know that's not true. You wanna know how I know that? Simple: I actually do average about 75 hours a week in the office, and my teacher friends have a lot more free time than I do.

Looking at it more concretely, think about it in terms of what an 80 hour week actually consists of. The average schoolday starts at, say, 8:30 am and goes until 3:00 (this is in Butte, where I attended school -- if anyone else's school district started at 8:00, sorry; I mean no slight to the teachers in those districts). Anyway...so the actual school day is 6 1/2 hours, with a half hour for lunch and probably an empty period at some point during the day -- so let's say the average teacher spends 5 1/2 hours per day actually teaching.

Ok -- now, an 80-hour workweek means that each workday is sixteen hours long, so after school ends at 3:00, the average teacher still has 10 1/2 hours of work to do. In other words, with class ending at 3:00, the average teacher is going to go home at 1:30 am, assuming he/she doesn't take a dinner break anywhere -- if he takes a dinner break at some point, he's going home at 2:30. Is that what you're telling me the average teacher's workday is like?

wow...ummm..note to self...dont anger a lawyer

There is class prep -- that much is true, but my friends/family/acquaintances that are teachers have never told me stories about 80 hour weeks, either. Unless you are learning the material for the first time prior to teaching it that week, it really can't take THAT long to prep and grade papers. A few extra hours a day? Of course, just like virtually any other professional job.

Of course, if one is talking about teachers who also coach, then I believe it. Coaching is essentially donated time, so nobody goes into it for the money. But that's different than talking about straight teaching time requirements.

To be fair I think you would have to compare incomes of people with a minimum of a Bachelors Degree.

Grizlaw wrote:

wbtfg wrote:You also have to realize that teachers don't work 40 hour weeks. First year teachers work closer to 70 or 80 hour weeks.

Sorry, but I'm calling b/s. I have enough friends and ex-girlfriends who are young teachers to know this to be untrue.

I'm not saying that there might not be *some* teachers who work this hard, but it's not normal or necessary.

I would have to agree with GL on that one. Who was it that said they had a friend that was a teacher & a waitress and still had to collect food stamps because she had 3 kids… Some of the stories you hear are a little far fetched.

My wife makes a little more then an entry-level teacher, and she works 12 months in a year. She has a bachelor degree and has begun her master’s studies. She works for the state of Montana and you do not her office complain about pay nearly as much as you do from teachers. She is no less or more qualified, but our country has a hard on for teachers and their under-appreciated talents…

I had so many truly bad teachers growing up (the downside of going to a school in a rural community -- it's not exactly the top of the list for teachers looking for jobs) that I was really down on teachers as a profession when I was young. I have since known a lot of really bright and passionate people that have gone into the field, so I now have a healthy respect for the good teachers that are out there.

I guess my big gripe with the system now is that there are no incentives in place to reward good teachers, and I think that is a lot of the problem with recruiting into the profession and the overall low pay scales. When you have to pay the worse the same as the best, you are going to end up with severely underpaid people.

BAC & GL-

was curious about this, because without teachers, you would not be where you are in life, and you seem to being doing well for yourselves, so you should probably thank and endorse teachers. 37K is nothing, I know in Montana that is a lot, but the state in general just has horribly low salaries.
Love to live there, but can't make enough to live on. sad really a great place to raise a family. But who are you kidding when a PhD fetches under 60K in MT and over 150K here in WA. why would you leave WA or someplace else to move back to MT, unless you have cash stored up.

-rebecca

Hell's Bells wrote:
wow...ummm..note to self...dont anger a lawyer

No anger; just trying to prove my point. And I always find that a dash of hyperbole is often helpful in that regard.

Re: salaries -- I don't have any hard statistics, but as another point of comparison, I happen to know that the law firms in Montana pay salaries in the high-30's to low-40's range for attorneys right out of law school (this was when I graduated, in 2001), while entry level government lawyers in the state (probably a better comparison for public school teachers) were making high 20's - low 30's.

Rebecca,

I think one can support and endorse the teachers and the good jobs that most of them do while still getting tired of the unions' drumbeat calls for higher salaries for the entire profession. Like you noted, everybody in Montana is underpaid, so even if one wants teachers to be paid more, its hard to suggest that they should be paid more in that particular area. When people start comparing salaries in different states and then saying they should make more as a result, they are overlooking the cost of living differences and so many other things.

So yes, in a perfect world, I think teachers should be paid a lot more. This would lure even more high caliber people into teaching (and retain them in the profession), and eventually improve upon the quality above and beyond it is now. I don't think the answer to that is to simply tax people in MT more and give the money to the teachers. I would suggest that certain things should be changed to allow the best teachers to make more money, which would allow school districts to ration their scarce resources to their greatest advantage of teaching talent.

Of course, I wish everybody in Montana was paid more.


Brad