Ugly Americans - New Orleans

GOKATS · Post by **GOKATS** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 10:23 pm

I spend little time in this forum because I prefer to discuss athletics rather than political and social issues. However Katrina has captured my attention and I've been pretty much glued to CNN this week. Katrina is a major natural disaster and I have deep sympathy for the people having to deal with it.

I am appalled, however, with the idiot actions of some of those left behind in New Orleans-major looting, rape, shootings- hell they're firing shots at those trying to evacuate, supply, rescue, etc. Hell, they're even firing shots at those trying to evacuate hospitals.

I realize these folks are facing very difficult times, but my read on what I've watched is that the majority of those causing the current problems are probably 'welfare folks' who didn't have the means to escape and are now blaming the 'government' for not attending to their needs in an immediate fashion. These people have been raised with the attitude that it's the duty of others to take care of them.

My hat is off to those in Houston, San Antonio,et al, who are offering all they have to ease the situation. It'll take a long time for the hurricane area
to realize some sense of normalcy- I wish them well.

'Nuf said, just had to express my thoughts. Thank God I live in Montana.

Post by **rtb** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 10:29 pm

I have to agree with you. I feel very badly for those that are dealing with the devastation, but it is really hard for me to feel as compassionate as I did for the tsunami victims, etc. when I see the ugly actions of so many in New Orleans. I have also been glued to CNN every second I can and needless to say I get very upset with the sheer stupidity of the actions they are showing.

I hope that things change soon!

mquast53000 · Post by **mquast53000** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:23 am

I was watching Fox News and the reporter asked, “Are people looting for survival?” While he asked this question to another reporter they showed some teens carrying 10 boxes of Nikes. It is out of control! As long as there is no law enforcement things are simply going to get worse. They should declare Marshal Law in New Orleans.

Bleedinbluengold · Post by **Bleedinbluengold** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:25 am

Desperate people do desperate things. It's a hopeless situation for people who had little hope to begin with.

I woke up yesterday about half #$%^ed off. I heard on the radio that this was basically FEMA's 'worst case' scenario IN THE COUNTRY. And they simply knew that if it occurred, the city would be screwed, and those in it as well.

I'll be fully #$%$^ed off if we build that city in same place.

We are definitely seeing the personification of how a welfare state deals with life versus a self-sufficient state. In other words, observe how leaders led and people perservered in New York City, versus the absence of leadership and everyone simply sitting down in a trance in New Orleans. I mean, the governor cries on National TV? Give me a friggin break.

Now the mayor is blaming the Feds for not doing enough? - how about he kicks ass on the cops who are turning in their badges!

Yeah, I'm #$%^ed. This is just a classic example of how a welfare state blames everyone else for their misery. Well, you either better get busy living, or get busy dying! (a favorite quote from Shawshank).

Cat Grad · Post by **Cat Grad** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:28 am

Yeah, they probably should. But on the other hand, how many years have we read and listened to NOAAs warnings that a Cat IV or V would flush that city? My question would be: Why isn't the media that somehow got their crews and equipment doing anything to help rather than simply show us what we all know goes on in our major metropolitan areas almost daily? It's easy to sit on the sideline and criticize those in the arena.

Grizlaw · Post by **Grizlaw** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:37 am

I believe martial law was declared in the state of Louisiana on Tuesday, wasn't it? I was watching either Fox News or CNN while I was at the gym on Tuesday night, and that was my understanding. The problem is probably lack of personnel; the police and military that they do have in the area are too committed to the rescue effort to effectively stop looting.

As for why people are looting, I would guess it is probably a combination of survival and greed. I wouldn't judge a mother stealing food from a store to feed her children too harshly, but people stealing tv sets and things of that nature is really maddening. Seeing what is going on down there really makes me appreciate the fact that similar things did not happen here after 9/11.

briannell · Post by **briannell** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:47 am

I know that here at Ft. Lewis they are putting together at team to deal with the issue of diseases being spread. the outbreak in just the mesquito population alone is enough to set off several CDC issues. the concern over raw sewage, rotting bodies, and lack of proper sanitation is a huge concern. CHPPM west (Brian is the Chief) - env. engineers and PM officers are stretched. they're very small in numbers and greatly needed in iraq and now here. They work closely with CDC. The army doesn't know how they are going to deal with this and Iraq at the same time. it's very sad.

Robcat · Post by **Robcat** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:51 am

Here is my 2 cents worth. Most media of today is very liberal and really likes the question of what is the government doing for us today. They want to show the ugly side of Katrina. I am sure there are plenty of great things happening in this devastated area. I know the Red Cross is there feeding and sheltering the homeless. FEMA is doing a great job and gets better each and every day. The National Guard is working to the point of exhaustion. Why is this not reported? Because feel good stories are only important if it involves animals.

I am not sure what people expect, but the bottom line is this is the nations most difficult crisis and there is not a band aid large enough to cover this wound overnight. Our Nation and its people will overcome and the 3% that are making the sensational headlines will filter back into the darkness.

iaafan · Post by **iaafan** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:56 am

I think passing this off as a "those people are dispicable" is a mistake. The entire country is to blame for the crime taking place in N.O. This situation is a systematic product of our society. I feel ashamed of myself for the neglect and unfairness we have for our fellow Americans. This is what happens when you add all the things we are doing for welfare, equal rights, civil rights, public health (elderly disabled), safety, etc together and throw in a natural disaster. Like a previous poster stated, we were warned by NOAA that this would happen, but even if NO were hurricane-proof, it would just prolong the inevitable. It'll happen in LA, SF (earthquake) someday. And like N.O. it'll primarily be the poor, elderly and disabled who absorb the brunt of this with their lives. Something tells me the oil companies are going to make it through this.

iaafan · Post by **iaafan** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:59 am

Sorry Robcat, but not even Prez-nit Bush agrees with you on this one.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9157866/

gtapp · Post by **gtapp** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 10:05 am

They should put up a fence around the whole area and leave. Come back in a year and whoever is left standing make them Mayor and start over.

Bleedinbluengold · Post by **Bleedinbluengold** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 11:47 am

That was the point - FEMA KNEW that there was no way the US could deal with such a hurricane in that area. We'll throw all the money and manpower we have to help the people of that region, but outside help can only do so much. The PEOPLE of that region are the ones that need to decide if they'll get through this, or not.

Someone above mentioned news coverage. That's another difference between NYC and NO. If you recall the news coverage of NYC, there were daily stories of heroics, BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT NEW YORKERS WERE. Everyone in NYC got busy living, because that's what they decided to do.

iaa said it - this is a sad reality of our welfare state. Of course, iaa is right about the oil companies, too. They'll get busy surviving.

Grizlaw · Post by **Grizlaw** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 12:17 pm

Just to be fair -- I was in New York on 9/11 (I actually moved here about three weeks before it happened, and lived about a mile north of ground zero at the time), and I agree that New Yorkers behaved commendably after the tradgedy. However, just to be fair to the people of New Orleans, I think it's pretty hard to compare what happened there with what happened here after 9/11. Yes, it is true that we lost basic services for a few days, Lower Manhattan was closed for several weeks, and many other businesses were closed, etc. It was a very rough time, and I really hope I never live through anything like it again. However, to keep things in perspective...

... we did not have 80% of our city completely flooded, and the majority of us were not forced to abandon our homes. While the destruction here was horrific, it was limited to a very small part of the city; a lot of the disruption stemmed from the fear that another attack was coming, rather than from actual damage to the city's infrastructure. Most grocery stores and businesses were closed, but some were not and in any event, at least we knew that they were *going* to reopen at some point in the fairly near future. While there was a lot of inconvenience and hardship, most people at least knew that they were not going to literally starve to death. Those who lived in the immediate area of ground zero and were displaced by the tradgedy were able to find shelter in the countless number of churches, schools, and other places that opened their doors to anyone who needed a place to sleep.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, while I am proud of the way New Yorkers handled themselves after 9/11, I'm not going to be so quick to judge the people of New Orleans for what's going on there now. The looting is inexcusable, but their situation is a lot different from what happened here.

Bleedinbluengold · Post by **Bleedinbluengold** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 12:40 pm

Those are very good points, and very much appreciated. Flooding definitely puts a crimp on how you get from point A to point B. But ya know what? I'd probably float to point of safety rather than float to the nearest Best Buy to get a 60-inch big screen, which I would never be able to use.

How many people in lower Manhattan? Gotta be 1/2 million at least, which is about the same number as NO. Still, in NYC - leaders emerged, and people decided to survive regardless of the hardship, and complete strangers decided to help each other, and especially those that needed help the most. Contrary to NO, where idiots are shooting at would-be rescuers and each other, and where idiots walk around raping.

NYC cops and fireman didn't give up. Can't say the same about NO cops and firemen.

Post by **SonomaCat** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 12:44 pm

I need some help with the use of the term "welfare state" here? I'm not understanding the context. What does welfare have to do with anything? Poor disaster planning? Probably. Questionable city planning in the 1850's? Agreed. But where does the concept of welfare play into it, outside of the tenuous connection that the victims in NO are almost all very poor, while most of the victims in NYC were quite wealthy?

Hell's Bells · Post by **Hell's Bells** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 12:45 pm

I am just courious how gracious and generous the rest of the world would be. Americans were gracious when the tsunami hit indonesia. I read on the drudge report that the E.U. is going to be giving us their emergancy reserve of oil. I wonder if any other nations would follow suit or would they just enter in the America is a big, powerful, ritch nation. SCREW THEM type of mentality.

Post by **SonomaCat** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 12:55 pm

Hell's Bells wrote:I am just courious how gracious and generous the rest of the world would be. Americans were gracious when the tsunami hit indonesia. I read on the drudge report that the E.U. is going to be giving us their emergancy reserve of oil. I wonder if any other nations would follow suit or would they just enter in the America is a big, powerful, ritch nation. SCREW THEM type of mentality.

Considering that we are a rich powerful nation, and are spending billions of dollars each month fighting wars overseas that most of the world doesn't agree with, there's a pretty good chance that the poorer countries of the world aren't going to assume that we are in dire straits money-wise and won't be sending us a lot of cash to help out. We honestly don't need the cash -- that's not the problem. It sounds like people and boats and hospitals and other logistical things are what we need, and only the U.S. can provide that immediately.

I don't think we need to be looking for reasons to feel sorry for ourselves as a country right now as much as we just need to make sure that our government and other appropriate organizations are doing as much as they can to help the people in NO who need help (and hopefully locking up some dumbasses who are committing crimes).

iaafan · Post by **iaafan** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 12:57 pm

One news report I was watching said 20 nations have pledged support.

Post by **rtb** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 1:00 pm

I want to respond with my thoughts to GL and BAC's points.

GL: You are right that NYC wasn't impacted nearly as much as a whole as NO, BUT the attacks on 9/11 were also a surprise and no one was ready in anyway because we didn't know it was coming. On the other hand NO saw this thing coming for two days, yet many people ignored the mandatory evacuation and stayed in their homes. I know that many people had no means to leave, but the people who are now looting, killing, etc. obviously were capable of heading north when the mandatory evacuation was handed down. So I think that NO should have been way more prepared than NYC and therefore should have risen to the challenges even more.

BAC: I think the welfare comments have to do with the "what is the government going to do for me" attitude that is prevalent from the very poorest people all the way up to the mayor and governor in the area. The welfare system has conditioned these people to not think for themselves and find was to overcome the disaster. Instead they are asking "what is the government going to do for me". Whether that is correct or not I don't know, but I think that is what many believe is one of the problems in NO.

iaafan · Post by **iaafan** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 1:08 pm

Please don't compare 9/11 to NO. These are two very different circumstances. The folks in NO can't just walk a few miles, take out a credit card and get a bite to eat, a change of clothes and a motel room. They are moving groups of people the size of major Montana cities to locations hundreds of miles away. Ironically for some, the shelter they are moving into is better than where they were living. Many of the folks that stayed in their homes did not have the means to leave the city, nor did they have a full idea that it would be this bad. They may have had a car, but not enough room to take all of their family. They may have had relatives that they didn't want to leave behind. The may have not been able to understand the severity of what was about to happen. I certainly didn't imagine it would be this bad.

Most of the people trapped in this are poor, elderly or disabled and many are all three.

I definitely don't condone the looting, but many of those looting are lashing out, because they already felt disenfranchised and the response to their plight seemed to be getting ignored. They're befuddled as to how there can be no signs of help coming when they just saw the releif the tsunami victims received.