West Virginia Football Trouble

[cat_man_08]

Im sure everyone has heard of the troble "Pacman" Jones of the Tennesse Titans and Chris Henry of the Bengals has gotten into. Both players played their college football at West Virginia. Now Quincy Wilson (also of the Bengals and a former West Virginia star) has been charged with disorderly conduct at a wedding party. All of these players were probably recruited and brought to WV by head coach Rich Rodriguez. Should Rogriguez be punished the way Coach Kramer was by MSU (AKA job loss)?

[SonomaCat]

Im sure everyone has heard of the troble "Pacman" Jones of the Tennesse Titans and Chris Henry of the Bengals has gotten into. Both players played their college football at West Virginia. Now Quincy Wilson (also of the Bengals and a former West Virginia star) has been charged with disorderly conduct at a wedding party. All of these players were probably recruited and brought to WV by head coach Rich Rodriguez. Should Rogriguez be punished the way Coach Kramer was by MSU (AKA job loss)?

Sadly, even when you are pulling the most extreme example you can apparently find that includes players in the NFL, the offenses done by former and recently-current football players from MSU is much, much worse.

That's really sayin' something, and puts just how bad things are/were here in perspective ... we can't even mock the Bengals or West Virginia with a straight face.

And the topper? Apparently West Virginia does a lot better job of graduating players than we do.

Here's to hoping that things will go in the right direction on all fronts under the leadership of Ash ... before we unsuccessfully start trying to favorably compare ourselves to the University of Miami or something....

[Yorick]

You have some messed up thinking:

1. Comparing disorderly conduct with murder and drug dealing is insane.
2. As has been rehashed several times already, the trouble with the players was only part of the problem with Kramer, the big problem was academics. We have already lost scholarships. We were on track to lose more scholarships and practice time in 2008, post season play in 2009 and D1 status the year after that.

Kramer is gone. Get over it.

More info on the NCAA APR deal. http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/ ... ates_N.htm

[homeytennis]

Marcel Yates was on SportsTalk Radio in Boise last week and he was asked what was the main problem with Montana State football and his response was "recruiting." A one word answer that says a lot.

[SonomaCat]

Marcel Yates was on SportsTalk Radio in Boise last week and he was asked what was the main problem with Montana State football and his response was "recruiting." A one word answer that says a lot.

Wow ... that's an interesting comment to come from one of our own former assistant coaches. I wonder if he thought that at the time, or if this is just his conclusion in retrospect?

[brucat5]

Marcel Yates was on SportsTalk Radio in Boise last week and he was asked what was the main problem with Montana State football and his response was "recruiting." A one word answer that says a lot.

Wow ... that's an interesting comment to come from one of our own former assistant coaches. I wonder if he thought that at the time, or if this is just his conclusion in retrospect?

Thats what I was wondering too. Did he just realize this after seeing how Hawkins and Peterson go about recruiting or did he know that something a was wrong with Kramers recruiting practices. Interesting how we continue to get a better picture of the situation as time goes by.

Did the interviewer continue down the line of questioning or leave it at that?

[tetoncat]

you guys don't think the Pac Man Jones problems are comparable to MSU. He is wanted for questioning again today about a shooting outside a club. MSU has some serious problems but the NFL is rampant with guys involved in shootings etc. Many of them are out of control. I thought this discussion started on whether the coach should be held accountable for it.

I know, I know, Kramer is gone. Yep, he is and he's not coming back. Education is an issue. But do any of you really believe if we had one player arrested this year and the ex players had not been. That with that and the grades he would have been gone. I know people are looking for answers and for what will be expected going ahead. What if two more ex grizzly players get busted for something. It is worthy of debate so do not just dismiss it.

[SonomaCat]

you guys don't think the Pac Man Jones problems are comparable to MSU. He is wanted for questioning again today about a shooting outside a club. MSU has some serious problems but the NFL is rampant with guys involved in shootings etc. Many of them are out of control. I thought this discussion started on whether the coach should be held accountable for it.

I know, I know, Kramer is gone. Yep, he is and he's not coming back. Education is an issue. But do any of you really believe if we had one player arrested this year and the ex players had not been. That with that and the grades he would have been gone. I know people are looking for answers and for what will be expected going ahead. What if two more ex grizzly players get busted for something. It is worthy of debate so do not just dismiss it.

This is a sad discussion to have, but no, Pac Man Jones' problems are not as bad as those of MSU. Sadly, he's not even close. But maybe, if he really sets his mind to it, one day he will get there.

As soon as Pac Man Jones is in jail and facing the death penalty for murder, then he will have risen to the level of severity of (just one of) MSU's former player problems.

Jones is wanted for questioning about a shooting that involved his entourage ... he's not suspected of any direct involvement. Good lord, just think of the troubles that we would be facing if the trouble-making former players we had could afford to have an entourage!

These kinds of threads just depress me ... people trying to find the most pathetic examples of behavior on the planet and then thinking that it is a clever point to compare us to them. Is that really what we are shooting for (pardon the unintentional pun) these days? Is our goal simply to not have the most pathetic program in the entire gd country? Is so, count me out. I want MSU to be an example of the best that this country has to offer -- and not a program whose fans defend it by saying "Well, those guys are even worse than us" (especially when, sadly, they are NOT worse than us ... not even close).

[old wise one]

Marcel Yates was on SportsTalk Radio in Boise last week and he was asked what was the main problem with Montana State football and his response was "recruiting." A one word answer that says a lot.

I know Marcel Yates, and have had many football discussions with him when he was coaching here. I had him over at the house a few times even, and I can say without a doubt a main reason he was looking for another job at the time was he did not agree with Kramer's recruiting practices. Also another reason was obviously more money. Good for him, he is in a better spot.

[tetoncat]

BAC I took a whole different tone to this thread than you. I did not think we were comparing whose worse, or yeah someone did something bad so were are not so bad anymore. I thought the first post was commenting on holding the ex coaches accountable. In that regard I do not think we put a scale of "badness" on anything. Just a discussion about Kramer being held accountable for ex players problems and does that happen any where else in the country. If not should it?

[homeytennis]

The hosts didn't follow up the question. It was part of a segment they call "Pick Six" where they fire six random questions at the guests. Both Yates and Pete Kwiatkoski are on the Boise State staff.

[SonomaCat]

BAC I took a whole different tone to this thread than you. I did not think we were comparing whose worse, or yeah someone did something bad so were are not so bad anymore. I thought the first post was commenting on holding the ex coaches accountable. In that regard I do not think we put a scale of "badness" on anything. Just a discussion about Kramer being held accountable for ex players problems and does that happen any where else in the country. If not should it?

Fair enough ... I might have read too much into it.

But I still think it is a moot point until someone finds a program that has had as many severe legal problems among its former players AND an academic record that is among the worst in the country whose coach still hasn't been fired. In a comparison of this kind, it's obvious that magnitude of problems comes into play. If a former player gets a speeding ticket it can't be compared to a former player murdering somebody. So there has to be some degree of apples to apples if we want to make comparisons.

And even West Virginia can't compete with us straight up on legal problems among former and current players and coaches (we're way worse), and I'm pretty sure they are solid academically.

It's a depressing exercise, but I think it would be a challenge to find a program with problems as severe as those we have accumulated over the last several years.

[crazycat]

BAC I took a whole different tone to this thread than you. I did not think we were comparing whose worse, or yeah someone did something bad so were are not so bad anymore. I thought the first post was commenting on holding the ex coaches accountable. In that regard I do not think we put a scale of "badness" on anything. Just a discussion about Kramer being held accountable for ex players problems and does that happen any where else in the country. If not should it?

Thanks for clearing this up tetoncat. No one is trying to minimize the bad behavior of our players (current or former). What they've done is a shame, no doubt. But MSU did nothing to distinguish itself in a positive way by firing Kramer. All that did was call into question the abilities of those above him.

"The proof of the pudding is in the eating." So I expect better than average teams, good grades, and lawfulness in the football, and men's and women's basketball, and throughout our athletic programs. If that doesn't occur, I expect someone to be accoutable and step down.

I'll measure this by saying two of the three (FB, WBB, MBB) teams should produce in the following way. Football in the playoffs, WBB home tourney game, MBB home tourney game. In terms of grades, I expect all our programs to satisfy the APR this year except the FB team, which I'll give an extra year to get there. If that doesn't happen then the AD goes. It's a short leash, I know, but Fields brought this on himself.

I'd give him props if he'd just put these measurements onto himself.

[crazycat]

BAC I took a whole different tone to this thread than you. I did not think we were comparing whose worse, or yeah someone did something bad so were are not so bad anymore. I thought the first post was commenting on holding the ex coaches accountable. In that regard I do not think we put a scale of "badness" on anything. Just a discussion about Kramer being held accountable for ex players problems and does that happen any where else in the country. If not should it?

Thanks for clearing this up tetoncat. No one is trying to minimize the bad behavior of our players (current or former). What they've done is a shame, no doubt. But MSU did nothing to distinguish itself in a positive way by firing Kramer. All that did was call into question the abilities of those above him.

"The proof of the pudding is in the eating." So I expect better than average teams, good grades, and lawfulness in the football, and men's and women's basketball, and throughout our athletic programs. If that doesn't occur, I expect someone to be accoutable and step down.

I'll measure this by saying two of the three (FB, WBB, MBB) teams should produce in the following way. Football in the playoffs, WBB home tourney game, MBB home tourney game. In terms of grades, I expect all our programs to satisfy the APR this year except the FB team, which I'll give an extra year to get there. If that doesn't happen then the AD goes. It's a short leash, I know, but Fields brought this on himself.

I'd give him props if he'd just put these measurements onto himself.

I am still dumbfounded that people are willing to blame Fields for these problems will NOT also blaming Kramer ... the guy who was directly in charge of the program in question.

Does accountability skip a generation or something?

If anyone thinks that Fields should go (a question I have never decided upon myself, but I certainly understand the arguments in favor of it), they most certainly have to agree that Kramer should have been fired ... and given even more direct blame that Fields.

What's at issue here is that people are willing to let Fields blame Kramer for something he, too, is partly to blame for. I think blaming Kramer is pretty well accepted. Your question about accountability is weird considering that Kramer has been held accountable, hasn't he? And more than once. Before he was fired, Fields tasked him with getting the place in order and by all accounts Kramer was doing that. He was then held accountable for not doing enough, I guess.

You're rationale on Fields being fired is backward, but I like it. Since Kramer was fired, Fields is now needs to be accountable. I'm not saying Fields should be canned right now, but he should be on the hot seat until his practices prove themselves to be correct. Is there really a problem with that? I really don't want to hear people saying, "Oh it takes time for the new coaches to get their systems in place" or "It's not Fields fault the coaches can't recruit."

I wasn't trying to tear open this old scab. Just supporting tetoncat, who I feel was misinterpretted. He's right, it's interesting to see how others will handle their situations in comparison to how we did whether you feel they're very similar or not.

Here's another on a current player at nat'l champion Florida:
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=2907878 Rat-a-tat-tat!

[Yorick]

I think some of you are assuming that all of the athletics programs at MSU are struggling academically, but that is not the case. Overall, the student athletes GPA as whole is higher than that of the student body as a whole. The other programs students have such good grades that it is offsetting the poor grades of the football team. I know that the coaches in WBB, MBB, & VB have set very high standards academically for their athletes. Their teams have even complained that they have to work so hard when little is required of the football team.

I think Kramer was fired because the main problem was in football and it stood in stark contrast with the rest of the athletic programs. How many of you have had to fire someone to solve a problem?

That being said, should Fields acknowledge a shortcoming in his leadership? Yes, and explain how firing Kramer was a solution to fixing the problem.

[SonomaCat]

I deleted my post because I decided that I didn't want to get into this discussion again, but you must have caught it and started responding before I got rid of it.

You said that Kramer's firing was not a positive thing for MSU, but then you suggest that people aren't being held accountable for the problems MSU's football program has had (as no other coach on the staff has had similar problems).

Those two arguments seem to be contradictory.

If you are instead saying that Kramer's firing was justified in light of the facts and that you merely also want Fields fired for those same reasons as well, I can accept that as a reasonable position and say no more.

[crazycat]

I deleted my post because I decided that I didn't want to get into this discussion again, but you must have caught it and started responding before I got rid of it.

You said that Kramer's firing was not a positive thing for MSU, but then you suggest that people aren't being held accountable for the problems MSU's football program has had (as no other coach on the staff has had similar problems).

Those two arguments seem to be contradictory.

If you are instead saying that Kramer's firing was justified in light of the facts and that you merely also want Fields fired for those same reasons as well, I can accept that as a reasonable position and say no more.

Let me clear that up. I think everyone involved should be held accountable, not just one person. Accountable to some extent. Fields and Kramer appeared to be sharing the accountability in some ways, but then Kramer, by the act of firing, was given the appearance of having full accountability. Sure, you can say that Fields is being accountable by firing Kramer and bringing in someone to 'straighten out' the program. I'm saying, that's fine, but what happens when he isn't successful? Fields should have to maintain the good and improve the bad or he has failed.

Your last paragraph is a fair assessment.

Additionally, I don't think Kramer should've been fired, but he has been and in terms of the football team, I'm over it. But in terms of whether that was right or wrong, I'm not over it because it's not over with. The ball is still in play here and I'm interested to see what happens. I'm open to the fact that Kramer's firing could've been proper, but until I see that information, I'll be stuck in this position. It's in the pudding (settlement), so we'll see. If you fire a guy and it costs the State big bucks (more than it was worth), then chances are you shouldn't have fired the guy. Duh, no kidding. You should've waited and fired him for something that merited being fired over and that didn't put an entire season of football, for a team that was moving into the nat'l spot light, in a bind.

[tetoncat]

But Yorick, GPA and APR have nothing to do with each other. Kramer had talked about how the GPA was up this spring and how many players were above 3 pt. average. The people on here who understand the APR said that did not matter as the APR does not include that. So even if a team had a great GPA but had kids dropping out of school, transfer and not finish, or not be on schedule to graduate the APR could be low.

I have supported Kramers firing because I believe we needed to change directions in some areas. I did not like the timing or the fact that we really don't know why.
(We all guess it was academics & arrests) There obviously are issues.

[Yorick]

Additionally, who is to say that Fields won't get fired? The whole drug thing is not over, at least that is what the cops say.

I don't think you will see Kramer's suit go to court, it will be a moderate settlement behind closed doors. Rumors are that there is a lot of stuff that no one wants to come out in court - MSU or Kramer. Somethings were borderline illegal on Kramer's part, but these are just rumors and hearsay, nothing official. But it makes you wonder why MSU is so tightlipped officially on Kramer's firing.

[crazycat]

Additionally, who is to say that Fields won't get fired? The whole drug thing is not over, at least that is what the cops say.

I don't think you will see Kramer's suit go to court, it will be a moderate settlement behind closed doors. Rumors are that there is a lot of stuff that no one wants to come out in court - MSU or Kramer. Somethings were borderline illegal on Kramer's part, but these are just rumors and hearsay, nothing official. But it makes you wonder why MSU is so tightlipped officially on Kramer's firing.

I wonder if Edwards is even charging Kramer a fee. I wouldn't be surprised if he's just working for a percentage. If so, Kramer has nothing to lose here, so even if they go to court and expose some borderline illegal things as you say, it won't be as damaging as any borderline illegal things against MSU. That could explain why MSU is tightlipped, but they probably just don't comment on these kinds of things, so I wouldn't make too much of it. I agree it won't go to court, but it won't be a moderate (not sure of your definition of moderate) settlement, because it'll need to be substantial enough to get Kramer/Edwards to drop the suit. I'd guess Kramer is asking for 10 years salary at $200,000 per year, plus damages. He'd probably settle for a $1 million with a big chunk (the going rate) going to Edwards. However, it may never come out in the media, so get ready for a thread speculating on just what the settlement was...massive arguments....name calling...emoticons flying all over the place.