Montana Legislature wants to Tax Big Box stores

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Montana Legislature wants to Tax Big Box stores

Post by kmax » Wed Feb 16, 2005 2:00 pm

Saw this being discussed on another forum that I frequent and thought that it would be an interesting topic to see what people here thought.
Lawmakers debate whether behemoth retailers should pay to offset welfare costs for low-paid workers.
February 16, 2005: 7:45 AM EST

MISSOULA, Montana (Reuters) - Montana's state legislature is targeting the big-box megastores that have taken the place of the old Western general store, weighing a special tax to offset welfare costs for low-paid employees of the retailers.

A bill up for debate Tuesday calls for taxing retailers like Wal-Mart (Research), Target (Research) and Costco (Research) for each store with more than $20 million in sales.

State Sen. Ken Toole, D-Helena, the bill's sponsor, says Montana residents are tired of subsidizing big-box stores whose low prices -- and high profits -- depend on paying workers low wages.

"When you don't pay workers, they get public assistance," he said. "Guess who pays for that?"

The measure would impose a 1 percent tax on stores with more than $20 million in sales. It would rise to 1.5 percent for more than $30 million and 2 percent for sales of more than $40 million.

The tax would apply to 160 stores, accounting for about half the state's total retail activity, and funnel about $20 million a year to state coffers, Toole said.

A state Senate tax panel is scheduled to hear the bill, which has irked retailers and prompted Costco to postpone plans to build a larger store in Kalispell, population 13,000, in the northwest corner of the state.

"We're waiting to see how the legislation shakes out," said Doug Schutt, head of operations for Costco's northern division. "The bill singles out retailers, and we think that's unfair."

The proposed levy -- in a sparsely populated state with no sales tax -- would apply to stores whose part-time employees make up more than a quarter of the workforce and whose full-time workers earn annual compensation of less than $22,000.

Heated debate
Foes of the legislation say it discriminates against high-volume merchants. "It's not the government's job to pick winners or losers in a competitive marketplace," said Wal-Mart spokesman Nate Hurst.

Although Toole didn't know how much the state was paying to provide services to Wal-Mart workers, he pointed to a study released last February by Rep. George Miller that concluded taxpayers pay about $421,000 a year for every Wal-Mart store with 200 employees.

Wal-Mart's Hurst said the discount chain pumped millions into the Montana economy last year and bought more than $39 million in goods and services from local suppliers.

University of Montana economist Thomas Power said claims by retailers that they would have to scale back operations or raise prices are exaggerated. "Big-box stores are fighting to get into these markets," he said.

The proposed tax met mixed reviews from shoppers at the Wal-Mart Supercenter in Missoula, a city of about 60,000 in western Montana. "If prices have to go up, so be it," said Mary Karen Caraway. "These stores should be taking responsibility for their own employees."

But another shopper, Bob Rasmussen, said retail chains should not be singled out: "You can't just go after the big ones when you have small businesses that aren't paying much and don't have benefits."
To me this just seems crazy, but then I remember that Bozeman at one time was requesting WalMart put in low income housing and pay for mass transit in exchange for building the super center.

It is one thing to place restrictions/sanctions on companies that are engaging in monopolistic practices, but to tax companies that are just doing business better than others????

Just when I read that there is talk of dropping Monatana income taxes and implementing a sales tax that could possible bring some growth in industry to Montana, I read something stupid like this. 1 step forward, two steps back.


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Post by HelenaCat » Wed Feb 16, 2005 2:11 pm

To me, it is just a hidden sales tax. As Toole, says"Guess who pays for that?" But Mr. Toole did not mean it the way I see it.



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Post by Cat Grad » Wed Feb 16, 2005 2:11 pm

For what it's worth, Costco just abandoned their plans to expand their store in Flathead County solely because of the proposed tax. Guess we'll all have to paying the Mom and Pop prices again and watch a select few skew the income levels and prices; either that or do like our governor and head to Idaho, Wyoming, North and South Dakota (even Spokane) shopping. Wait, we already do in this part of the state. Wonder how much Williston makes off the Montana shopper?



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Post by kmax » Wed Feb 16, 2005 2:17 pm

HelenaCat wrote:To me, it is just a hidden sales tax. As Toole, says"Guess who pays for that?" But Mr. Toole did not mean it the way I see it.
Exactly, all that will happen is this tax will be paid by the consumers in Montana who shop at the big box stores. I would be interested to hear from Mr. Toole how exactly this is helping low income Montanans?


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Post by Cat-theotherwhitemeat » Wed Feb 16, 2005 2:31 pm

This bill is a good example of why Montana is known as an anti-business state. I could go on and on about what a joke the legislature here in Helena is but my keyboard would overheat.

To those of you are related to a legislator, I apologize now for my comments, but show me a legislator that puts Montana first, and I'll show you a mirage. These people get elected because they have the most money, not the most brain power. After living in Helena and seeing it first hand, I have fully lost all faith in our leaders. I actually considered not voting last November because I didn't want to feel responsible for putting those idiots in their spots. I did though, because of all those that fought for that right.


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Post by Cat Grad » Wed Feb 16, 2005 3:02 pm

Thank you. Are you actually a Fizzlie? One good thing came out of the legislature this year; Sam Kitzenberger decided to drop his push to come out in the middle of noplace and turn Highway 2 into a four lane at the expense of all the places than definitely need upgrades due to the huge volume of traffic already there. I possibly would have supported the move had their been plans to build bypasses around all the little towns.



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Post by Cat Grad » Wed Feb 16, 2005 3:03 pm

their, there...



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Post by Cat-theotherwhitemeat » Wed Feb 16, 2005 3:08 pm

Cat Grad wrote:Thank you. Are you actually a Fizzlie?....
Yeah, they got me when I was young. My sister played for Selvig in the early 80's and I was hooked. My uncle played football there as well, but that was before they had face masks. :shock: .....Now it all makes sense!


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Post by SonomaCat » Wed Feb 16, 2005 3:29 pm

I've never understood the argument that places that don't pay high wages are somehow increasing poverty (and increasing welfare numbers). If those businesses were not there, wouldn't there just be fewer jobs and even more unemployed?

I am not a knee-jerk anti-Union guy, but this is a perfect example of some of the crap that the unions are directly behind right now. These stores are targets because they have been able to fend off unionization (which is neither good nor bad -- if employees need a union, they should unionize, but it's not the place of a union to force workers into a union).

Another great example of unions trying to assert their influence not by providing value to society (as they did following the industrial revolution), but by trying to drag others down is the whole stock option expensing push. Since stock options are actually align the motives of management and the rank and file employees (by giving them all financial incentives for the success of the company), this removes, in large part, the antagonism between management and employees. Well, that means there is no need for a union. What do the unions do? Do they accept the fact that these employees are happy and rejoice in the idea that a union isn't even needed to provide fair compensation to larger and larger numbers of Americans? No, of course not. Like any organism, their main focus is self-preservation, regardless of the impact on society. That's why they are using so much of their influence in their pension investment funds and in their lobbying efforts to force companies to expense stock options (which, trust me, is a nonsensical accounting charge and distorts income statements beyond any useful purpose). The motive behind this has zero to do with transparency of financial reporting (as it actually makes it much more murky and less relevant), but rather to force companies to quit using stock options to compensate their employees. With a little luck, these employees will start hating management again, and then maybe they will unionize and try to put their employers out of business with strikes. Great friggin' social policy. But hey, as long as they are paying their union dues, and more money flows into those union pension [skim] funds as opposed to the evil self-managed 401K plans, it's all good.

Back to the big boxes... has anyone considered the Commerce Clause implications of this proposed law? Since it is pretty obvious that this law is being put in place to discriminate against a class of businesses that are exclusively out-of-state corporations, I am thinking there is a pretty good chance that it wouldn't even pass U.S. constitutional muster.

I'm seeing some really strange statistics being thrown out in that article as well. In what form is the state paying $421,000 for every Wal-Mart store? What does that mean?

Ugh, you guys sent me off on a rant... back to work for me....
Last edited by SonomaCat on Wed Feb 16, 2005 3:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.



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Post by rtb » Wed Feb 16, 2005 3:50 pm

I think we are all on the same page here so I don't need to add much more. This is just another hint and the wonderful "anti-business" climate the Montana has become famous for.

Just because Wal-Mart, Costco, etc. and found a way to do business for efficiently than mom and pop means we should punish them? There are things that small stores do such much better and things the big boxes do. Please lets start funding an Economics 101 course for the State of Montana.

Ok, I need to get off my rant or this will be the longest post in bobcatnation history.



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Post by Cat Grad » Wed Feb 16, 2005 3:50 pm

BAC, you hit upon some points that used to drive me into an almost uncontrollable fury. In my older, wiser (I wish) years, I can sit back and appreciate what the unions did for Butte, the trades, etc. Yet, I'm absolutely amazed that they want and have any influence whatsoever in government or some of the service industries. Teaching is a governmental service industry, yet to look at our homestate's salaries and look at how many districts being served by unions dilute the salary pool...yet, most of our teachers are against a state payscale (one union negotion versus the better part of our 452 school districts). How much of our money is wasted on the lawyers representing the individual districts teachers...you're right, I've got to go find something else to do also for a while...



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Post by kmax » Wed Feb 16, 2005 4:02 pm

I knew I could get BAC in here with this one! :wink:

Interested to see if anybody actually agrees with this and to hear their counterpoints.
Last edited by kmax on Wed Feb 16, 2005 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Post by Cat Grad » Wed Feb 16, 2005 4:04 pm

...take this over to the dUMb site and you'll get booed out of there...



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Post by Hell's Bells » Wed Feb 16, 2005 4:47 pm

hmm i wonder why when i read the story in the IR today that there was no mention of target?? thats rather interesting. as for me i am one that would love to shop at the little ol' mom and pop stores - there is nothing like the feeling that you are getting taken care of. But here is a couple of facts: More then likley mom and pop stores pay minium wage, and their prices are higher then the big box stores. i guess in this long ramble i am only saying that if we were to tax big box stores out of existance we will be loosing lots of good jobs.


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Post by jagur1 » Wed Feb 16, 2005 4:51 pm

I don't want to tax Wal Mart. But I hate the Walmartization of America. or you could call it the over consumerization of America. Ever watch all all the crap people carry out of WalMart? Do any of us need all that crap?

And the person who comes back at me about feeding the family better be withing 20 pounds of the Height requirement.


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Post by SonomaCat » Wed Feb 16, 2005 5:00 pm

jagur1 wrote:I don't want to tax Wal Mart. But I hate the Walmartization of America. or you could call it the over consumerization of America. Ever watch all all the crap people carry out of WalMart? Do any of us need all that crap?

And the person who comes back at me about feeding the family better be withing 20 pounds of the Height requirement.
I would personally rather see the mom and pop stores drive all of the big box stores out of business and thrive in all of our towns... but I don't like the idea of discriminatory tax policies to get there. The capitalist in me tells me that whoever does it the best should get the business (with limited government oversight for certain aspects of their business that might otherwise be abused).



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Post by kmax » Wed Feb 16, 2005 5:02 pm

Bay Area Cat wrote:
jagur1 wrote:I don't want to tax Wal Mart. But I hate the Walmartization of America. or you could call it the over consumerization of America. Ever watch all all the crap people carry out of WalMart? Do any of us need all that crap?

And the person who comes back at me about feeding the family better be withing 20 pounds of the Height requirement.
I would personally rather see the mom and pop stores drive all of the big box stores out of business and thrive in all of our towns... but I don't like the idea of discriminatory tax policies to get there. The capitalist in me tells me that whoever does it the best should get the business (with limited government oversight for certain aspects of their business that might otherwise be abused).
Well said, by both of you in this case.


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Post by Cat-theotherwhitemeat » Wed Feb 16, 2005 5:10 pm

I heard that Costco has plans to open a store in Helena, but are waiting til this bill is voted down. Costco pays very well and Helena could use one. Toole is a Tool.


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Post by Cat-theotherwhitemeat » Wed Feb 16, 2005 5:13 pm

Toole:
the bill's sponsor, says Montana residents are tired of subsidizing big-box stores whose low prices -- and high profits -- depend on paying workers low wages.
Hey Ken, we're tired of paying those lower prices too. Please tax the hell out of them so we all pay more.

In the words of Napoleon Dynamite....Friggin IDIOT!


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Post by Cat Grad » Wed Feb 16, 2005 5:18 pm

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