GrisinWashington's "tougher school" debate (again)

[GrizinWashington]

UM's Mansfield Library is quite possibly the worst building I have ever set foot in - and it is quite frankly a ghost building in the evenings. There was a palpable difference in the study habits of students at each school.

You might have your answer in your own post. I didn't want to study in a bad building. But I did a hell of a lot of studying.

[crazycat]

Well, I've heard from people who have attended both (in fact my college girl friend attended both after deciding to go into nursing), and they have all told me that UM is more difficult. So where does that leave us?

Oh, wait, I know. IT LEAVES US WAITING FOR OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE. Huh. I think that's right where I started....

I trust that the people telling me things were being objective. If you want to believe that the two schools are equally difficult, then explain why you feel that way. Surely they can't be exactly the same, can they? One has to be more difficult.

[crazycat]

You can go to both schools concurrently when the two schools combine to offer a curriculum. In Helena, both schools do this for a Public Administration Master's program.

That's the argument you're going with -- seriously?

So you think people who attended a joint UM/MSU Master's program in Helena are in a good position to judge whether it is tougher to attend MSU (in Bozeman) vs. UM (in Missoula)?

It's, like, a piece of the puzzle, dude. In that course, the students say the classes given by the MSU profs are more difficult to attain an "A" than the ones offered by the UM profs. Obviously, it doesn't prove that to be the case system-wide. But it makes you begin to wonder. That's a common thread in all the conversations I've had...the UM profs tend to grade easier. Good for them, I say.

The person feeding me this information tells me that at the end of the course the students that pay fees to UM only had to compile what the did throughout the course into a portfolio and turn it in to their advisor(?), while the MSU students had to write a professional paper. I'm also told that most of the students enroll via UM now, since the word is out that they UM grades easier and requires less work at the end of the class. All students need to take classes from both schools. I harbor no ill-will towards a professor that grades easy. Had it not been for them, I'd never have graduated.

One thing I should be up front about is that I'm dumber than a box of rocks, so the fact that you're even responding to my ascertations is satisfaction enough for me. And I especially like it when you go into your appalled lawyer bit right before you try to make it sound like I'm phrasing something a certain way. Priceless.

[GrizinWashington]

Well, I've heard from people who have attended both (in fact my college girl friend attended both after deciding to go into nursing), and they have all told me that UM is more difficult. So where does that leave us?

Oh, wait, I know. IT LEAVES US WAITING FOR OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE. Huh. I think that's right where I started....

I trust that the people telling me things were being objective. If you want to believe that the two schools are equally difficult, then explain why you feel that way. Surely they can't be exactly the same, can they? One has to be more difficult.

Okay, look. Both schools have IDENTICAL admission and graduation requirements. We all agree on this, correct? I believe that was proven in 25 othe previous threads.

If you want to believe that all UM's professor's are easier graders than msu's, there is little I can do to convince you otherwise, except to say that that would be the greatest statistical anomoly known to man.

But that aside, given that both universities have students start equally, and both universities have students end equally, you could prove one school is more difficult only by measuring those who "wash out" at each institution. Presumably, there would be higher rate at the "more difficult" university. I think that if you look at a statistically significant period of time (say 10 years), you'll find that the two universities are nearly identical in terms of the graduation rates of incoming freshman (reminder: the freshman are equal, and they have to do the same thing to graduate).

MSU is not more difficult. Nor is UM. They are equal, and every stat will confirm it. And let's be frank. NO ONE knows how they compare to other institutions in the BSC, although I would argue that they are all roughly equal. Arguing anything different without supporting documentation is the arguments of idiots.

[Cats Back]

We make claims all the time about MSU being the harder school because of the Engineering School and number of students attending. I my professional capacity I have worked with engineers for years. I know of one engineer that transfered from the engineering program at Carrol in Helena over here and he was amazed at how much easier engineering is at MSU than at Carrol.
Ya we do have a lot of engineering students but just how hard is engineering at MSU? I think we should all recognize that MSU and U of MT are both great schools.
Geesh, I have given BAC another reason to question my loyalty.

[crazycat]

We make claims all the time about MSU being the harder school because of the Engineering School and number of students attending. I my professional capacity I have worked with engineers for years. I know of one engineer that transfered from the engineering program at Carrol in Helena over here and he was amazed at how much easier engineering is at MSU than at Carrol.
Ya we do have a lot of engineering students but just how hard is engineering at MSU? I think we should all recognize that MSU and U of MT are both great schools.
Geesh, I have given BAC another reason to question my loyalty.

Well, yeah, that's because MSU has better engineering instructors than CC. So it's naturally easier to grasp.

CC > MSU doesn't mean UM = MSU.

MSU and UM are both great schools.

[crazycat]

Well, I've heard from people who have attended both (in fact my college girl friend attended both after deciding to go into nursing), and they have all told me that UM is more difficult. So where does that leave us?

Oh, wait, I know. IT LEAVES US WAITING FOR OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE. Huh. I think that's right where I started....

I trust that the people telling me things were being objective. If you want to believe that the two schools are equally difficult, then explain why you feel that way. Surely they can't be exactly the same, can they? One has to be more difficult.

Okay, look. Both schools have IDENTICAL admission and graduation requirements. We all agree on this, correct? I believe that was proven in 25 othe previous threads.

If you want to believe that all UM's professor's are easier graders than msu's, there is little I can do to convince you otherwise, except to say that that would be the greatest statistical anomoly known to man.

But that aside, given that both universities have students start equally, and both universities have students end equally, you could prove one school is more difficult only by measuring those who "wash out" at each institution. Presumably, there would be higher rate at the "more difficult" university. I think that if you look at a statistically significant period of time (say 10 years), you'll find that the two universities are nearly identical in terms of the graduation rates of incoming freshman (reminder: the freshman are equal, and they have to do the same thing to graduate).

MSU is not more difficult. Nor is UM. They are equal, and every stat will confirm it. And let's be frank. NO ONE knows how they compare to other institutions in the BSC, although I would argue that they are all roughly equal. Arguing anything different without supporting documentation is the arguments of idiots.

Not all as in every single one, but generally, as in a combined together as a whole.

Yes, that might be a good approach, but it could be skewed by students going to UM because its easier and had they gone to MSU would've been spit out thus decreasing the number that MSU canned.

[Eastcoastgriz]

Well, I've heard from people who have attended both (in fact my college girl friend attended both after deciding to go into nursing), and they have all told me that UM is more difficult. So where does that leave us?

Oh, wait, I know. IT LEAVES US WAITING FOR OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE. Huh. I think that's right where I started....

I trust that the people telling me things were being objective. If you want to believe that the two schools are equally difficult, then explain why you feel that way. Surely they can't be exactly the same, can they? One has to be more difficult.

Okay, look. Both schools have IDENTICAL admission and graduation requirements. We all agree on this, correct? I believe that was proven in 25 othe previous threads.

If you want to believe that all UM's professor's are easier graders than msu's, there is little I can do to convince you otherwise, except to say that that would be the greatest statistical anomoly known to man.

But that aside, given that both universities have students start equally, and both universities have students end equally, you could prove one school is more difficult only by measuring those who "wash out" at each institution. Presumably, there would be higher rate at the "more difficult" university. I think that if you look at a statistically significant period of time (say 10 years), you'll find that the two universities are nearly identical in terms of the graduation rates of incoming freshman (reminder: the freshman are equal, and they have to do the same thing to graduate).

MSU is not more difficult. Nor is UM. They are equal, and every stat will confirm it. And let's be frank. NO ONE knows how they compare to other institutions in the BSC, although I would argue that they are all roughly equal. Arguing anything different without supporting documentation is the arguments of idiots.

Not all as in every single one, but generally, as in a combined together as a whole.

Let me understand this, you are stating as a group UM professor's are "easier graders than msu's"???? Please, there is absolutely no evidence of this being true.

[Cats Back]

Gosh now we are down to my prof is better than your prof? I just think this whole argument about which school is better is not worth the time. MSU and U of Mt are two different schools. Some students are better in the sciences and some are better in the liberal arts. Both are good schools.

[BozoneCat]

UM's Mansfield Library is quite possibly the worst building I have ever set foot in - and it is quite frankly a ghost building in the evenings. There was a palpable difference in the study habits of students at each school.

You might have your answer in your own post. I didn't want to study in a bad building. But I did a hell of a lot of studying.

Not a valid argument. The majority of my years in Bozeman were spent before Renne Library got a major facelift. It was still just as busy before as after the renovation. I will say that Renne Library before the renovation was still light-years better than Mansfield.

UM has a SUB that is ten times nicer than MSU's, and there still aren't a ton of kids studying over there in the evening. Just an observation that I thought was quite noticable in my years at both schools.

[crazycat]

Well, I've heard from people who have attended both (in fact my college girl friend attended both after deciding to go into nursing), and they have all told me that UM is more difficult. So where does that leave us?

Oh, wait, I know. IT LEAVES US WAITING FOR OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE. Huh. I think that's right where I started....

I trust that the people telling me things were being objective. If you want to believe that the two schools are equally difficult, then explain why you feel that way. Surely they can't be exactly the same, can they? One has to be more difficult.

Okay, look. Both schools have IDENTICAL admission and graduation requirements. We all agree on this, correct? I believe that was proven in 25 othe previous threads.

If you want to believe that all UM's professor's are easier graders than msu's, there is little I can do to convince you otherwise, except to say that that would be the greatest statistical anomoly known to man.

But that aside, given that both universities have students start equally, and both universities have students end equally, you could prove one school is more difficult only by measuring those who "wash out" at each institution. Presumably, there would be higher rate at the "more difficult" university. I think that if you look at a statistically significant period of time (say 10 years), you'll find that the two universities are nearly identical in terms of the graduation rates of incoming freshman (reminder: the freshman are equal, and they have to do the same thing to graduate).

MSU is not more difficult. Nor is UM. They are equal, and every stat will confirm it. And let's be frank. NO ONE knows how they compare to other institutions in the BSC, although I would argue that they are all roughly equal. Arguing anything different without supporting documentation is the arguments of idiots.

Not all as in every single one, but generally, as in a combined together as a whole.

Let me understand this, you are stating as a group UM professor's are "easier graders than msu's"???? Please, there is absolutely no evidence of this being true.

Stating? Never. I'm just saying that this is what I'm told by people with experience with both schools. They are pretty adament about it, so I give it more than just a passing credence.

[GrizinWashington]

Well, I've heard from people who have attended both (in fact my college girl friend attended both after deciding to go into nursing), and they have all told me that UM is more difficult. So where does that leave us?

Oh, wait, I know. IT LEAVES US WAITING FOR OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE. Huh. I think that's right where I started....

I trust that the people telling me things were being objective. If you want to believe that the two schools are equally difficult, then explain why you feel that way. Surely they can't be exactly the same, can they? One has to be more difficult.

Okay, look. Both schools have IDENTICAL admission and graduation requirements. We all agree on this, correct? I believe that was proven in 25 othe previous threads.

If you want to believe that all UM's professor's are easier graders than msu's, there is little I can do to convince you otherwise, except to say that that would be the greatest statistical anomoly known to man.

But that aside, given that both universities have students start equally, and both universities have students end equally, you could prove one school is more difficult only by measuring those who "wash out" at each institution. Presumably, there would be higher rate at the "more difficult" university. I think that if you look at a statistically significant period of time (say 10 years), you'll find that the two universities are nearly identical in terms of the graduation rates of incoming freshman (reminder: the freshman are equal, and they have to do the same thing to graduate).

MSU is not more difficult. Nor is UM. They are equal, and every stat will confirm it. And let's be frank. NO ONE knows how they compare to other institutions in the BSC, although I would argue that they are all roughly equal. Arguing anything different without supporting documentation is the arguments of idiots.

Not all as in every single one, but generally, as in a combined together as a whole.

Yes, that might be a good approach, but it could be skewed by students going to UM because its easier and had they gone to MSU would've been spit out thus decreasing the number that MSU canned.

As I said, this is an idiot's argument. And you, sir, certainly play the part extremely well.

[Grizlaw]

One thing I should be up front about is that I'm dumber than a box of rocks, so the fact that you're even responding to my ascertations is satisfaction enough for me. And I especially like it when you go into your appalled lawyer bit right before you try to make it sound like I'm phrasing something a certain way. Priceless.

If you think I actually take anything on this or any message board seriously enough to be genuinely "appalled" by it, then you are greatly mistaken. I simply suffer from an inability to fight the urge to mock ridiculous arguments when I read them, and you give me a lot more material than most.

[crazycat]

Well, I've heard from people who have attended both (in fact my college girl friend attended both after deciding to go into nursing), and they have all told me that UM is more difficult. So where does that leave us?

Oh, wait, I know. IT LEAVES US WAITING FOR OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE. Huh. I think that's right where I started....

I trust that the people telling me things were being objective. If you want to believe that the two schools are equally difficult, then explain why you feel that way. Surely they can't be exactly the same, can they? One has to be more difficult.

Okay, look. Both schools have IDENTICAL admission and graduation requirements. We all agree on this, correct? I believe that was proven in 25 othe previous threads.

If you want to believe that all UM's professor's are easier graders than msu's, there is little I can do to convince you otherwise, except to say that that would be the greatest statistical anomoly known to man.

But that aside, given that both universities have students start equally, and both universities have students end equally, you could prove one school is more difficult only by measuring those who "wash out" at each institution. Presumably, there would be higher rate at the "more difficult" university. I think that if you look at a statistically significant period of time (say 10 years), you'll find that the two universities are nearly identical in terms of the graduation rates of incoming freshman (reminder: the freshman are equal, and they have to do the same thing to graduate).

MSU is not more difficult. Nor is UM. They are equal, and every stat will confirm it. And let's be frank. NO ONE knows how they compare to other institutions in the BSC, although I would argue that they are all roughly equal. Arguing anything different without supporting documentation is the arguments of idiots.

Not all as in every single one, but generally, as in a combined together as a whole.

Yes, that might be a good approach, but it could be skewed by students going to UM because its easier and had they gone to MSU would've been spit out thus decreasing the number that MSU canned.

As I said, this is an idiot's argument. And you, sir, certainly play the part extremely well.

It's your argument. You just don't seem to be enjoying it anymore.

[crazycat]

One thing I should be up front about is that I'm dumber than a box of rocks, so the fact that you're even responding to my ascertations is satisfaction enough for me. And I especially like it when you go into your appalled lawyer bit right before you try to make it sound like I'm phrasing something a certain way. Priceless.

If you think I actually take anything on this or any message board seriously enough to be genuinely "appalled" by it, then you are greatly mistaken. I simply suffer from an inability to fight the urge to mock ridiculous arguments when I read them, and you give me a lot more material than most.

And all along I thought you were on GiW's side. I'm just telling him why I feel the way I do and he keeps arguing that those things didn't happen and that I can't feel that way. It's like I'm living in the United States and George W. Bush is president or something.

[BigBruceBaker]

Even though i pretty much hate all grizlies i got a huge laugh out of
GrizinWashingtons replies. If anyone is objective it is obvious that GrizinWashington has won the debate side. Even though i agree that MSU is a much harder school in certain areas because that is what we are recognized for!