M-O-N-T-A-N-A

wbtfg · Post by **wbtfg** » Tue Feb 22, 2005 11:06 am

A good buddy of mine wrote this editorial about Montana for a website....I thought you all might find it entertaining. ENJOY!

Montana…the word evokes so much. Being a 5th generation Montanan, I find
I have more allegiance to my state than my country. However, Montana has its
pitfalls, its drawbacks, and a whole town full of morons (guess which one).
The worst drawback of all is that once you leave it, you miss it. I don’t
care if you’re driving to Idaho (on the west side), North Dakota (for the
prairie dogs on the east end), or Wyoming (WHY ARE YOU GOING TO WYOMING?),
the minute you see the “Welcome to Our State” sign, you automatically look
in your rearview to see the Montana sign.
One last glimpse before wandering out into the vast universe.

The first time I left MT for an extended period of time, I was 19, sitting
on my first airplane, heading to Fort Knox, KY for Basic Training. When the
plane flew over the midwest, my first reaction was, “Where are the
mountains? ******, these people don’t have any mountains! How the hell am I
going to tell which way is which?” The people of Kentucky informed me that
they did have “hills”, to which I replied that they weren’t hills, but mere
rises in elevation. This was the first time I missed Montana. I missed the
mountains, the air, and the teeth. KY is famous for its lack of dental
hygiene and its supplemental income from the Jerry Springer Show.

After retuning to my home briefly, I ventured out again. This time to Fort
Benning, GA. Georgia was so much worse than I ever imagined. What about
all the beautiful women, Hayes? Southern Bells only exist in southern
church towers and Georgia peaches only grow on trees. People would call me
a Yankee, to which I would firmly reply, “I’m not a Yankee,I’m from
Montana.” Reactions ranged from awe struck to dumbfounded. More often than
not people would say, “I’ve never met anyone from Montana before.” Of
course they hadn’t! There’s only 900,000 of us and we never leave home!

Yet again, upon my return, I vowed never to leave Montana again, that is
until I recently graduated from college and wanted to make money. There are
only two ways to make money in Montana, construction and meth…neither of
which interest me a whole lot. And so I see myself on the verge of yet
another move, this time to Arizona. I’m not sure how I’ll like it, but I
know it won’t be Montana.

Montana is more unique than any other state in the nation. I’ve been in 27
states and none of them have half the character of Montana. In Montana, you
can tell where a person is from by their license plate and correlate their
ineptitude behind the wheel to their zip code (damn Missoula drivers). You
can meet anyone from Montana, from anywhere in Montana, and the chances are
pretty good that you’ll have similar experiences and have been to similar
places (Pork Chop Johns, Staggering Ox, Pickle Barrel, etc.). In grade
school we all take Montana history, sing the State Song after the Pledge,
and have had our first pasty before we’ve had our first kiss (Gravy or
Ketchup?).

I don’t care where you’re from, you’ve got nothing on Montana. More space
and less people (Rhode Island has more people than Montana). You can do
everything and nothing in Montana, all at once. We don’t have a speed limit
(no matter what those stupid signs say) and more people are divided on
Cat/Griz than Republican or Democrat. And only in a Montana election will
the people vote to ban gay marriage and legalize medicinal pot on the same
ballot.

Boom or bust, snow in June and sunshine February, it’s Montana, for better
or worse. You choose to live here and with that comes the understanding
that you live in the most beautiful corner of the world. “The world is full
of assholes, the number increasing rapidly the further one gets from
Montana.” M-O-N-T-A-N-A, Montana I love you. Treat her right and don’t
tell your friends.

Post by **rtb** » Tue Feb 22, 2005 11:33 am

What a great column. I hope some of the legislators read this so they realize what they are doing to the business climate in Montana.

Cat Grad · Post by **Cat Grad** » Tue Feb 22, 2005 1:11 pm

Love the article; having been an expatriate to Georgia for 26 years and received my formative training at Ft. Beginning for boys and then on to Ft. Stewart, those were my feelings exactly until I returned after separating from active duty. All of the sudden, I missed going shrimping and crabbing in Sapelo Sound and Blackbeard Island, catching HUGE stripers (you think a steelhead is strong and fast?). I love being back home; gives me a reason to be unreasonable whenever I disagree with anyone

This time of year, I miss the beach and the ocean, knowing that the azeleas and dogwoods will be in full bloom on River Street in Savannah during the St. Pats Day celebration, but when I've had much more of the "real" world than I could stand, it was great to be able to head home--if just for a week or two. The main thing I miss about the south is the fact that football is a religion; after church every Sunday, the high school coaches are tearing apart the films, grading the kids, etc.

Sometimes, I think football out here is just an afterthought; our largest "stadium" in the state is a good sized high school crowd

Until you've been away from a place for any length of time, it's hard to tell what you're missing and it makes you appreciate where you're "from" all the more.

HelenaCat · Post by **HelenaCat** » Tue Feb 22, 2005 8:51 pm

Anybody that grows up as a kid in Montana should have to leave after high school or college for at least 3-4 years. While MT is far from perfect, you really don't appreciate what we do have here until you live somewhere else for awhile. If you grow up here, you just take it for granted and don't know what lucky people we are to be able to live here and raise our families here. Now if we could just get our legislators to change the business climate so our kids could stay here also and make a living!!

Cat Grad · Post by **Cat Grad** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 8:48 am

Like the preachers in the African-American churches ask: "Can I have an amen for that!" but then our established pecking order would be upset

It appears to me that many (if not all) of our laws are designed to limit competition; trouble with that type of legislation is that it only opens the door for the huge out-of-state corporations and businesses to buy and control the market and eliminate the small mom and pop type of business

But...if you move away and have a decent job, you can afford to visit and have the best of both worlds (unless you have somebody like Judy that wants to tax our "vacation" homes at a higher rate than the residents even though they may have been the home we grew up in

Bleedinbluengold · Post by **Bleedinbluengold** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 7:02 pm

I have a question: What are the top three reasons, for those who believe this, for the "so-called" anti-business climate?

Anyway, my personal experience is that a person can make just as much moolah here as anywhere. One of my friends, whom I first met at our first jobs out of college, still works at the same place in Washington State. I make more than he does on my own. He works for a Fortune 100.

Montana is a secluded paradise, and unless you want massive transporation development, then that's the way it will stay regardless of any so-called pro-business regulation. The fundamental problem is the lack of cheap labor and proximity to market.

Our new governor wants to develop the coal fields and our wind...it's just laughable if he thinks that it will generate more than a few hundred jobs. I'm not against either. In fact, I support both to some extent. Montana has become a vacation economy, not a resource extraction economy. The latter days are over for the most part - the sooner everyone realizes this the better. I have no problem dinging vacationers for using the State. As with all things, there needs to be moderation. There is a fine line between a fair vacation "tax" and an outright gouge. I think most people would pay a fair "excise" tax for vacationing and for having second homes in this state.

Cat Grad · Post by **Cat Grad** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 7:36 pm

I kind of understand what you're saying. But, and I hate to preface anything with but

when I came home, it was to visit my family. If I wanted to go fishing, I headed for Canada or thousands of other locations simply because I'm addicted to big fish. If I wanted elk, I simply headed to Colorado and bought a license over the counter and took a decent bull each time I went. We're highly regulated even in the outfitting business. I'd sell my house here before getting gouged simply to come back to visit. Without spending too much time in the specifics, our personal income taxes alone will tell any corporate official to not transfer here. Compare us with Wyoming or Nevada as an extreme example and look at Idaho or South Dakota as more moderate examples. Any large manufacturing conglomerate (say widgets for arguments sake) should and does expect more than a few concessions on utilities, taxes and assistance with the infrastructure. Why does it cost less to ship a bushel of wheat from North Dakata to Seattle than it does from anyplace in Montana? What does PPL pay in property taxes in Montana compared to their dams in other states? Why are our grain elevators worth so much more in Montana than the same structure in surrounding states? How does the property taxes on our houses here compare to other states? Is there another state in the country with a higher gasoline tax outside of California and that would be like comparing apples and oranges. And...our schools are a drain on valuable resources but don't anyone dare mention "consolidation" because that'll cause these little towns to dry up and blow away

Count the buses on our major highways over the next two weeks and realize that there's actually a greater opportunity for kids to be involved in larger schools. Those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head

BWahlberg · Post by **BWahlberg** » Thu Feb 24, 2005 12:29 am

Cat Grad,

At a recent economic report DR Larry Swanson with the Center of the Rocky Mountain West shed a little light on "Montana's Economy"

1st off - There are only 6 other states in the US that are taxed less than Montanans according to what he told us. People here talk about property taxes being high, well selling real estate to people all over the US especially the western half property taxes are lower, or the same as where they're coming from (speaking from my own personal experience only).

Larry showed us what's driving Montana's economy, and its services. General services ranging from medical to real estate to tourism, it's our #1 by far. The fastest declining services are in natural resources such as mining and logging, also the railroad, and a few others.

Gas Tax - its because we don't have a sales tax. We're the 4th largest state in the US (right?) somewhere we need to get money to pay for the highways crisscrossing Montana. Almost every state in the US has some sort of Sales Tax, and we need to look at it, to better fund our roads, schools, and government programs.

As for kids being dropped into largers schools being better for them, say that to almost any parent who chooses to live in smaller communities just outside of larger towns, or in smaller towns all across the state, I bet you'll be surprised by how many parents like the amount of 1 on 1 education their kids are getting.

Cat Grad · Post by **Cat Grad** » Thu Feb 24, 2005 8:43 am

ReMax: One would expect this argument by your handle

Tell that to all the former Montanans that have done and will continue to do their voting with UHauls

Obviously, we can continue to sit here and listen to real estate salesmen (a salesman is a salesman, right?) and watch those scarce parcels of privately held land be bought by "those damn, rich out-of-staters" or take the high road and realize we do in fact have a problem. Remember the first step in the scientific process goes something like observation, then somewhere down the line it goes identify the problem...I also realize that logical thinking is not part of the problem, and besides, you've got yours, now by gawd, everybody else get theirs

But first, we'll write some cockeyed law to ensure nobody infringes upon your territory and keeps competition out

Really an American way of doing things, just like a union man's voice

grizbeer · Post by **grizbeer** » Thu Feb 24, 2005 10:11 am

I'll throw my 2 cents in here - having returned to Montana after living in Washington for years Montana does not have a real tax problem.

Income taxes appear high, but when fully calculated are very reasonable. Washington does not have an income tax, but has sales tax as high as 9%+. Also business pay a B%O tax which for most manufacturing and wholesaling business (the type of business that pay good wages) is about .5% on gross receipts. For a company that earns a 10% pre-tax net profit this is equivilant to a 5% income tax. If you lose money you still pay the tax. This is in addition to sales tax on all consumables.

Also by law in Washington all property is taxed at the same rate. No lower rates for Ag land or business equipment. Washington is a much tougher place to do business with respect to labor and environmental laws as well (Washington has the highest minimum wage in the country).

I don't agree with hardly anything Larry Swanson says about our economy. Montana has far more natural resources reserves than Wyoming, and Wyoming is doing fine with their resource extraction economy. Why is Montana's on slide support and Wyomings thriving? Swanson thinks we can survive as a tourist economy, which makes sense if you make your living off the taxpayers, but not so good if you have to change bed sheets. He talks about how Montana's strength is our beauty, and that is our salvation because executives will locate her for the natural beauty, well folks name one business with good paying jobs that moved here for our beauty. You keep your high paying factory jobs and technical labs in New Jersey, Boston, Chicago, Seattle and San Francisco, and have your vacation home in Montana because you don't want to bring your job with you on vacation. It is Swanson's silly dream that people will locate good jobs in Montana due to the beauty of the area.

The former CFO of Microsoft is a Montanan that has a "ranch" in the 9 mile valley, yet even at this high executive level Microsoft did not locate a single research office in Montana. Why? He says taxes, but in truth because he likes having his vacation home clean from his work home. Sure he would like to get rid of the income tax and lower property tax, and institute a sales tax - but not to increase business in Montana, but because he knows he would pay little or no tax this way - rich people can to some degree avoid the income tax, and sales tax is a small portion of their income and can also be largely avoided, but property tax is a stinger for them.

So what is wrong with the Montana economy in my opinion? Well, we have written off our resource economy, which is the only sector in Montana that pays good wages. The growing sector of our economy consists of 1) retirees who have wealth but little income, 2) tourism which by definition is low paying largely low skill jobs, 3) government which again is largely low paying be necessity, and 4) non-profit which is a quadruple hit to the economy because a) jobs are low paying, b) by definition pay little or no taxes, so tax collection per job go down, increasing the burden on the rest of the industry in the state, c) contributions to non-profits is tax deductible, so increases in non-profit revenues actually decrease the tax base, again increasing the burden on the rest of the industries in the state, and d) the mission of many non-profits, especially those growing in Montana, could be fairly describes as hostile to most other industry in the state, increasing costs and decreasing the willingness of business to locate here. Non-profits are lauded by Swanson as a great thing for Montana's economy, but in fact they are cannibals to Montana's industry and tax base.

What is the solution in my opinion? Well first stop waiting for our legislature to do anything - it is not really due to tax or regulatory issues that few manufacturing companies locate here. What we need are home grown business people to start businesses here. Business grow in clusters. A good company starts, grows, a few employees get dissatisfied and start their own business, and things grow from there until there is an industry with firms competing for employees, wages go up, and now you have an economy. It sounds like that is happening in Bozeman to some degree.

As far as getting business to locate here, it does little good to chase after large multi-national businesses, and more harm to chase them off - just let them be - government should be neutral on business moving branches here - not sell our soul to get them to come, not be threating or obstructionist about it.

Bleedinbluengold · Post by **Bleedinbluengold** » Thu Feb 24, 2005 10:44 am

grizbeer, that was an awesome post. Generally, the growth of small business in Missoula is exactly how you theorized, in my opinion. I know many people who have left firms (even on friendly terms) and started their own deal.

I know almost everyone here would love to have the $50K/yr manufacturing jobs, but that just isn't going to happen for the reasons you state. Ya, there might be some here and there, but for the most part, no. Heck, the local pulp mill constantly has to prove their worth to the parent corp, and it's not because of high expenses, taxes, or enviro regulation.

Catgrad - I suppose if all you have is W-2 income, then the State income tax would be painful every year. However, compare that with what you would spend if we had a 4% sales tax. I've always thought that eliminating the income tax and opting for a sales tax is the way to go...I'm 100% opposed to having both. At least with a sales tax, the burden is shared with out of staters. HOWEVER, the general belief is that a sales tax is the ultimate form of anti-business regulation.

UMfaninkazoo · Post by **UMfaninkazoo** » Thu Feb 24, 2005 11:13 am

Great story and it makes me miss home.....I could go for a Staggering Ox right now.

Cat Grad · Post by **Cat Grad** » Thu Feb 24, 2005 11:20 am

One day I hope to express myself as beautifully as grzbeer; however...I always seem to let my emotions and passions let my alligator mouth overload my frog's arse

I could point to our Liquor Control Board limiting the number of franchises more than willing to relocate here, but again, it's over regulated and controlled in order to eliminate competion

When I was in college, our Business Dean, Dr. Larson stated to those of us that wanted to stay for the mountains in every class at some point: "If you want to stay in Montana so bad, you'd better make sure you get an office with windows because that view of the mountains is going to cost you on average 40k a year." I of course didn't believe him and came back after separating from active duty. My decision to leave came the the year I was doing my taxes and saw my teacher's salary was about 48% of my part time job in the Army Reserves

After a pretty decent career and discovering my Mother was incapable of handling my Father, my wife and I returned to Georgia and turned in a teaching contract for 62k and a school psych contract for 65k to return to a state controlled by unions that limit not only the years experience one can bring in (Georgia is one of several states that has a state salary and every year's experience PLUS up to five years of military can be brought in) but literally does not value education for if we did, there would be an incentive for all teachers to get graduate degrees

Most systems I've examined in Montana forces a teacher to make the conscious decision that it will literally take the rest of their career to pay for a graduate degree and then decide the opportunity cost is not worth the reward

And I know most in education won't admit it, but one of the main reasons we see so many of our experienced teachers leave this state is that after a full career, there's no way in hell that teacher can live on the state "retirement." In fact, my wife's father who was Jimmy Carter's State Finance Director before becoming their State Auditor for more than twenty years was that individual that forced Georgia to consolidate their schools

Do I love Georgia more than Montana? Depends on the season but it really bothers me to see my beach home worth probably twice as much as my place in the Flathead taxed at 31 percent of what I pay in Montana

Want to really pi-- me off, let a realtor tell me we've got a low cost of living

(Compared to D.C or California

In actuality, when we returned, it was my spouse that made the choice after my adament refusal to come back west to either Montana or Washington due to the union control (nothing to do with influence) because she felt our kids would do better in small schools

Do better at what? We recently examined her high school transcripts and I pointed out the fact that in Cobb County Georgia, she had three different Algebra II teachers her junior year in high school

Here, a kid is stuck with no options (and so is the teacher

And no, there's no way that I'd say we don't have more than a few problems; however, when has academia been able to identify the problem

I also had a professor that spoke very highly of his colleagues: "Never confuse intelligensia for academia." and then he'd go off on one of his tirades about the field having to disprove prevailing theories of the time to ever get accepted, usually after their demise

Cat Grad · Post by **Cat Grad** » Thu Feb 24, 2005 11:37 am

BBG: I know it seems absolutey ridiculous for a Montanan to look at a couple teaching in another state such as Georgia to make 127k per year (or a little under eight years to gross a million), but choosing to only work in systems that chose to opt out of social security afforded me the opportunity to place the max into 403b and IRA accounts. This again can be a double edged sword for upon withdrawal, it forces many retirees into the Alternate Minimum Tax bracket (tell that to one of our union loving Montana teachers that yell and scream that they want all 452 districts to remain intact and let the union lawyers "negotiate" with each school board

Besides, aren't we always telling our significant others "bigger is better

Bleedinbluengold · Post by **Bleedinbluengold** » Thu Feb 24, 2005 12:29 pm

Catgrad - I'm not arguing against school consolidation, or not. I'm also not taking a position about whether Montana's property tax is too high, or not. Income and taxation affects each person differently, and the inherant part of taxes is that some people really benefit, and others perceive that they get screwed (most people believe the latter).

I think what a person needs to do is look at their overall tax burden, and then decide if the tax system needs to change, or not.

At taxfoundation.org, they keep track of tax freedom day for all 50 states. In 2004, tax freedom day was April 9 in Georgia, April 14 in Wyoming and April 3 in NoDak.

Tax freedom day was April 4 in Montana. In other words, you paid more taxes in Georgia than in Montana in 2004, and she ranked as the 37th lowest in the Nation. This tells me that the overall tax burden on individuals is relatively low in Montana compared to the other 49 states.

That's basically what I'm trying to say. I don't think that in general, Montana is anti-business due to tax regulation. Nor do I think that we pay "too much" in taxes. I would say, however, that, in general, most Monanans simply don't want change (i.e., population growth and industry).

wbtfg · Post by **wbtfg** » Thu Feb 24, 2005 12:37 pm

Cat Grad wrote:One day I hope to express myself as beautifully as grzbeer; however...I always seem to let my emotions and passions let my alligator mouth overload my frog's arse

I could point to our Liquor Control Board limiting the number of franchises more than willing to relocate here, but again, it's over regulated and controlled in order to eliminate competion When I was in college, our Business Dean, Dr. Larson stated to those of us that wanted to stay for the mountains in every class at some point: "If you want to stay in Montana so bad, you'd better make sure you get an office with windows because that view of the mountains is going to cost you on average 40k a year." I of course didn't believe him and came back after separating from active duty. My decision to leave came the the year I was doing my taxes and saw my teacher's salary was about 48% of my part time job in the Army Reserves

After a pretty decent career and discovering my Mother was incapable of handling my Father, my wife and I returned to Georgia and turned in a teaching contract for 62k and a school psych contract for 65k to return to a state controlled by unions that limit not only the years experience one can bring in (Georgia is one of several states that has a state salary and every year's experience PLUS up to five years of military can be brought in) but literally does not value education for if we did, there would be an incentive for all teachers to get graduate degrees Most systems I've examined in Montana forces a teacher to make the conscious decision that it will literally take the rest of their career to pay for a graduate degree and then decide the opportunity cost is not worth the reward And I know most in education won't admit it, but one of the main reasons we see so many of our experienced teachers leave this state is that after a full career, there's no way in hell that teacher can live on the state "retirement." In fact, my wife's father who was Jimmy Carter's State Finance Director before becoming their State Auditor for more than twenty years was that individual that forced Georgia to consolidate their schools

Do I love Georgia more than Montana? Depends on the season but it really bothers me to see my beach home worth probably twice as much as my place in the Flathead taxed at 31 percent of what I pay in Montana Want to really pi-- me off, let a realtor tell me we've got a low cost of living (Compared to D.C or California In actuality, when we returned, it was my spouse that made the choice after my adament refusal to come back west to either Montana or Washington due to the union control (nothing to do with influence) because she felt our kids would do better in small schools Do better at what? We recently examined her high school transcripts and I pointed out the fact that in Cobb County Georgia, she had three different Algebra II teachers her junior year in high school Here, a kid is stuck with no options (and so is the teacher

And no, there's no way that I'd say we don't have more than a few problems; however, when has academia been able to identify the problem I also had a professor that spoke very highly of his colleagues: "Never confuse intelligensia for academia." and then he'd go off on one of his tirades about the field having to disprove prevailing theories of the time to ever get accepted, usually after their demise

Wow...that has to be a record for the most emoticons

in a single post. Nice work.

Cat Grad · Post by **Cat Grad** » Thu Feb 24, 2005 12:44 pm

Thank you; just wanted to make sure ya'll knew I wasn't being disagreeable

After leaving and viewing all things considered from the outside, I tend to agree that we simply refuse to believe we have a problem, therefore, as we can't identify the problem, we'll never solve the problems.

BWahlberg · Post by **BWahlberg** » Fri Feb 25, 2005 1:23 am

Cat grad,

Yes I am a sales person, but I'm also a native Montanan. Also you make it sound like I don't have a soul, and would love nothing more than to see a stretch of Condos from Idaho to N. Dakota.

Not True. Also a lot of the clients I have that are "coming from out of state with all this money" are a lot of times people who used to live in Montana before, they're returning home. Also, if these ungodly out of staters come to Montana and buy properties with their out of state money, aren't they bringing in 100,000's of $$$'s to our state? (Assuming the sellers stay in-state).

Cat Grad · Post by **Cat Grad** » Fri Feb 25, 2005 9:47 am

That means you still have time to choose an honorable profession; I attempted to explain in an acerbic tone a small portion of what many of us in your second paragraph discuss openly among ourselves upon our return "home." As far as a stretch of condos from Idaho to N.D.; "it ain't gonna happen." What percent of Flathead or Gallatin Counties are privately held? Then ask yourself: "Who can afford the price of real estate in just these two counties?" Very similar to a place I know and love just southwest of Ft. Meyers called Sanibel/Captiva. Very hard to even remodel a house there now, in fact, we found it cheaper to raze the existing 1500 square foot island home and rebuild. YOU and YOURS are doing the same to many parts (probably the best parts) of Montana. I've a friend that would like to subdivide in one of the two counties I mentioned, but his farm is zoned agriculture; therefore, he's not allowed to. But I assume as he's also a "Native American Montanan" he'll have just the right agri-business for that particular county soon: a large pig farm