To he!! with docs; check out this vid

iaafan · Post by **iaafan** » Wed Feb 02, 2005 4:30 pm

...Abu Gharib to the shores of San Diego.

http://www.nbc4.tv/politics/4155808/detail.html

Bleedinbluengold · Post by **Bleedinbluengold** » Wed Feb 02, 2005 4:37 pm

ahhhh, ya, so? Does this surprise you? The only thing that surprises me is that he said it in such a public venue.

mslacat · Post by **mslacat** » Wed Feb 02, 2005 4:44 pm

iaafan wrote:...Abu Gharib to the shores of San Diego.

http://www.nbc4.tv/politics/4155808/detail.html

There are just some people who should not get within a 100 feet of a microphone

iaafan · Post by **iaafan** » Wed Feb 02, 2005 4:56 pm

Yeah, who knows? This guy could be one of the best we have in the military. I wonder how far the media will take this. I liked his, "ain't got no...." line.

iaafan · Post by **iaafan** » Wed Feb 02, 2005 4:59 pm

No, Bleedin' this doesn't surprise me at all. We send some of our most intelligent people to Anapolis and West Point, then set them loose in the 'real' military. Considering that he's probably been active for close to 30 years....this is just what I'd expect. Haha.

SteelheadBum · Post by **SteelheadBum** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 9:15 pm

Glad to know my fellow MSU Alums are a bunch of freedomloaders. What a a F!!pp'n disgrace. And you clowns call yourselves patriots and the leaders of the BOBCAT NATION!?!!???!!? I weep for our university, state and nation if you guys are the leaders of MSU and the BOBCAT NATION. If it wasn't for the Marine Corps and our other military services, I'd be watching your heads being sawed off live on Arab TV (probably not a bad thing). It is fun & good to kill those who harm our democracy and republic. Peace through strength!! You freedomloader professors can go back to class now. I expect this crap from um, but MSU?? What a Flippin' disgrace.

Oh, any of you MSU Freedomloaders want to bet that MSU ROTC (Air Force & Army) students have a MUCH higher core (i.e. their required major courses) GPA than the Student Athletes at MSU?? Ask Coach Kramer for his input on this subject. Ask him how many uncles (God Bless them) his family lost on D-Day at Normandy just so you clowns can have free speech without serving our country. Ask Mr. Peter Fields whose grades he would prefer to report to the NCAA. I will also bet you that you MSU Freedomloaders that the average MSU ROTC student takes a tougher academic course load then does than the average student athlete. Look it up professors.

Oh, all you MSU Freedomloader BOBCAT NATION Alums and Boosters can thank some MSU Football players (like the entire starting team) for making the ultimate sacrifice during WWII just so you MSU Freedomloaders can burn our nation's flag (probably the state flag too) on the MSU campus and chant, "Hell no I won't go!!!! But I will take the nation's milk & honey for free!!! "Oh, and I'm smarter than you other Montanans because I'm a BOBCAT NATION leader." Only at MSU. Disgraceful!!

Post by **SonomaCat** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 10:14 pm

SteelheadBum wrote:Glad to know my fellow MSU Alums are a bunch of freedomloaders. What a a F!!pp'n disgrace. And you clowns call yourselves patriots and the leaders of the BOBCAT NATION!?!!???!!? I weep for our university, state and nation if you guys are the leaders of MSU and the BOBCAT NATION. If it wasn't for the Marine Corps and our other military services, I'd be watching your heads being sawed off live on Arab TV (probably not a bad thing). It is fun & good to kill those who harm our democracy and republic. Peace through strength!! You freedomloader professors can go back to class now. I expect this crap from um, but MSU?? What a Flippin' disgrace.

Oh, any of you MSU Freedomloaders want to bet that MSU ROTC (Air Force & Army) students have a MUCH higher core (i.e. their required major courses) GPA than the Student Athletes at MSU?? Ask Coach Kramer for his input on this subject. Ask him how many uncles (God Bless them) his family lost on D-Day at Normandy just so you clowns can have free speech without serving our country. Ask Mr. Peter Fields whose grades he would prefer to report to the NCAA. I will also bet you that you MSU Freedomloaders that the average MSU ROTC student takes a tougher academic course load then does than the average student athlete. Look it up professors.

Oh, all you MSU Freedomloader BOBCAT NATION Alums and Boosters can thank some MSU Football players (like the entire starting team) for making the ultimate sacrifice during WWII just so you MSU Freedomloaders can burn our nation's flag (probably the state flag too) on the MSU campus and chant, "Hell no I won't go!!!! But I will take the nation's milk & honey for free!!! "Oh, and I'm smarter than you other Montanans because I'm a BOBCAT NATION leader." Only at MSU. Disgraceful!!

What leaders of MSU and BOBCAT NATION are you talking about, exactly?

Was this an attempt at humor, or a sincere rant?

CelticCat · Post by **CelticCat** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 3:54 am

I'm waiting and PRAYING he is joking... I'll reserve my judgement until he confirms this is how he really took this thread.

Regardless, even joking about the prospect of "it not being a bad thing if you were to watch our heads get cut off on TV" isn't funny by any means.

Cat Grad · Post by **Cat Grad** » Mon Mar 07, 2005 4:03 pm

As I recently had the privledge of attending a booster function, I know where Coach would put our servicemen and women; in fact, he publically thanked the vets (he was afterall in Glasgow) for their sacrifices so he could continue to coach a game. He mentioned his vacation this summer to Normandy and the site of the Battle of the Bulge. I can also relate to what Steelheadbum wrote after receiving the following as an email from my brother-in-law:

This is from a Navy Commander at a port in Kuwait ... No commentary needed, the 3-minute read below says more than a 20-page article could about our warriors and the constitution of our men.

Where do we get such men?

**********************************

"They are so damn young"

I was going to the gym tonight ( really just a huge tent with weights and treadmills), and we had heard that one of the MEUs (Marine Exp Units) that had come out of service in the "triangle" was redeploying (leaving country). We saw their convoy roll in to the Kuwait Naval Base as the desert sun was setting.

I have never seen anything like this. Trucks and humvees that looked like they had just come through a shredder. Their equipment was full of shrapnel blast holes, and missing entire major pieces that you could tell had been blasted by IEDs. These kids looked bad too! I mean, sunken eyes, thin as rails, and that 1000-yd. stare they talk about after direct combat. Made me pretty damn embarrassed to be a "rear area warrior".

All people could do was stop in their tracks and stare... and feel like me...like I wanted to bow my head in reverence. A Marine Captain stationed with me, was standing next to me, also headed to the gym. He said, "Part of 1st Brigade Combat Team, 8th Marines, sir. Took the heaviest losses of any single unit up north as part of Task Force Danger, sir."

As the convoy rolled up, all of us watching just slowly crept toward these kids as they dismounted the Hummers and 5-tons. Of course, we were all shiny and clean compared to these warriors. This kids looked like they had just crawled from Iraq. I had my security badge and id around my neck, and started to help them unload some of their duffle bags.

A crusty Gunny came up to me and said "sir, you don't have to do that..." I said, "Gunny... yes I do..." They all looked like they were in high school, or younger!! All held themselves sharply and confident, despite the extreme fatigue you could tell they had endured. "You guys out of the triangle?" I asked. "Yes, sir". 14 months, and twice into the grinder, sir" (both fights for Fallujah).

All I could do was throw my arm around their shoulders and say "thanks Marine, for taking the fight to the bad guys...we love you man".

I looked at these young kids, not one of them complaining or showing signs of anything but focus, and good humor. 'Sir, they got ice cream at the DFAC, sir?" "I haven't had real ice cream since we got here..." They continued to unload... and after I had done my handshakes and shoulder hugs, the Captain and I looked at each other ...

They want ice cream, we'll get them ice cream. You see, a squid O-5 and a focused Marine O-3 can get just about anything, even if the mess is closed. Needless to say, we raided the closed DFAC (mess tent), much to the chagrin of one very pissed off Mess Sergeant and grabbed boxes of ice cream sandwiches (as many as we could carry), and hustled back to the convoy. I felt like Santa Claus. "Thank you, sir.." again and again from each trooper, as we tossed up the bars to the guys in the trucks. I'm thinkin', "Son, what the hell are you thanking me for? I can't thank you enough."

And they are so damned young ... I will sleep well, knowing they are watching my back tonight."

Post by **SonomaCat** » Mon Mar 07, 2005 4:12 pm

I think there's a big difference between paying the due respect to people in the armed forces and posting what Steelhead did.

Question for the group -- is "supporting the troops" the new PC? Except this is a bit of PC that is insulated from self-righteous straw man backlashes?

Cat Grad · Post by **Cat Grad** » Mon Mar 07, 2005 4:42 pm

I can easily understand why a vet would get furious; we have to be careful and cognizant of our rather proud military background and not having any idea who Steelheadbum is or what his experiences are, I wouldn't hazard a guess what his experiences are. I know my friends still on active duty or retired would go ballistic just like Steelheadbum after the first few posts. I heard a vet in Kalispell recently tell someone in a rather calm voice (one we all know that it's time to shutup): "Don't tell me you support the troops but don't support the war." Just my two cents worth.

Post by **SonomaCat** » Mon Mar 07, 2005 4:53 pm

Yeah, I guess that's kind of my point on the PC question. I don't mean to sound crass, but I don't care who is saying it -- whether it's a vet or whether it's just a schmarmy talking head on Fox News. If anyone suggests that you can't question the President's decisions in using military force at any given time and still be patriotic, they're wrong. Not only are they wrong, they are likely hypocrites. Our history is littered with examples of us using military force when, in retrospect, it is nearly impossible to justify (and/or assert that we were the "good guys"). WWII is not one of those situations (which is why I'm sure Steelhead used WWII examples for his apples and oranges comparison). I assume that most people affiliated with the armed forces have a good understanding of our military history and are aware of the instances where we just messed up as a country. I'm sure they also realize that they can acknowledge those mistakes without having to feel guilty for being unpatriotic and not respecting the troops who lost their lives in those flawed campaigns.

I would hope that simply being a vet doesn't shield a person from realizing that mistakes have been made in the past, and as such, it is our DUTY to diligently question decisions made in the present. To do otherwise while blindly accepting whatever someone tells us (especially if that faith is doled out based on political affiliation, which is just sad) without even questioning it is a disservice to our country and the world.

It's good to think. After removing the emotional connection to the subject matter than many vets and active military personnel understandably feel, I am sure they would nearly all agree.

CelticCat · Post by **CelticCat** » Mon Mar 07, 2005 4:53 pm

There was a thread awhile back about the supporting the troops vs supporting the war. I honestly don't see how I can't be against the war and support the troops at the same time. The whole reason I am against the war (well part of it) IS because I don't want our boys dying. I am all about supporting the troops, and honoring vets. Soldiers don't start wars. Politicians do. I support and back the troops 100%, I have relatives over there as we speak. I don't care how against this war anyone is - nobody wants to see our boys die over there.

I think that a lot of people get a little too touchy when it comes to any criticism of the foreign policy or the military. It is not a personal attack against soldiers. I don't sit there and say "boy those soldiers sure did bad today, good riddens to bad rubbish." Just because I don't respect the reasons we are over there doesn't mean I don't respect every person brave enough to be fighting for us over there.

EDIT* Just read BAC's post... he said it better than I could.

BobCatFan · Post by **BobCatFan** » Mon Mar 07, 2005 7:20 pm

For those who are against the war, I have a question. Are you against the war because you do like President Bush and the Republican Party, or are you against this war?

I believe that most people who are against the war are really against Bush and I believe if Clinton started this war, we would not be hearing all the negative comments about the war. In the long run, history will judge this war as a just war and one that improved the world status on human rights. In the long run, the people of the Middle East will be friends of the US and will be thankful for our soldier’s efforts.

Post by **SonomaCat** » Mon Mar 07, 2005 7:33 pm

BobCatFan wrote:For those who are against the war, I have a question. Are you against the war because you do like President Bush and the Republican Party, or are you against this war?

I believe that most people who are against the war are really against Bush and I believe if Clinton started this war, we would not be hearing all the negative comments about the war. In the long run, history will judge this war as a just war and one that improved the world status on human rights. In the long run, the people of the Middle East will be friends of the US and will be thankful for our soldier’s efforts.

Flipping that one around, how many of the people favoring the war would be favoring the war and calling the dissenters unpatriotic if it had been Clinton who promised us that we would find WMD and then came up with nothing? Let's be honest -- impeachment hearings would be going on right now. The high irony is that after the WMD argument vanished, the war started being marketed as essentially a humanitarian mission -- the kind of thing most Republicans have traditionally despised. We are essentially fighting a "Democrat's War" led by a Republican President because his first reason for going to war didn't stand up to reality. JFK would be proud. The turn of events has probably created a lot of hypocrites on both sides of the political spectrum.

I voted for Bush the first time, and I was not happy with how the war was conducted. So for me personally, political party has nothing to do with it.

Post by **SonomaCat** » Mon Mar 07, 2005 7:40 pm

Bay Area Cat wrote:In the long run, history will judge this war as a just war and one that improved the world status on human rights. In the long run, the people of the Middle East will be friends of the US and will be thankful for our soldier’s efforts.

I would like to believe this part to be true, but I think that in reality, this is a naive expectation. How many times in recorded history has a powerful country invaded a country, installed a government they preferred, and then went on to be loved by the locals? It doesn't happen, no matter how noble that invading country is. It's just human nature. Even if you do everything right and turn the place into heaven, the locals will still resent you for forcing your will on them. The only people who like us now are the ones who stand to gain power by doing so. That's the way the entire world is.

It's unfortunate that we failed so miserably in our own treatment of human rights in the region. We need everything to go perfectly to make your vision come true, and Abu Ghraib was a huge setback. It's hard to recover credibility after things like that.

Cat Grad · Post by **Cat Grad** » Mon Mar 07, 2005 10:00 pm

My last post on this particular topic and then you're allowed to argue all possible scenarios until the cows come home to Lewistown or any burg in and around Fergus County in about a 50 mile radius

Would we be arguing or discussing any of these "political" points if Jimmy Carter and his administration had never been the "world leaders" that would claim their lasting legacy would be "...peace in the middle east would define my administration..."

BWahlberg · Post by **BWahlberg** » Mon Mar 07, 2005 11:34 pm

Thought I'd chime in a little here, being a Democrat.

1. I did not and still do not support the war. If it was a humanitarian mission then would should invade half of Africa / South America / and Central Asia. I know we could get into this debate but it's already been thoughouly disucssed.

2. I support our troops. They did not start this war, nor did they all want to go, but the answered the call of duty. I wish all of our troops to come home safe. In no way do I blame them for the mistake that I believe our leadership made, they are following orders to best of their ability.

- Did our troops tell the UN to "shove it" and send the order to invade Iraq?

- Did our troops get mislead and act prematurley on the WMD claim?

No, our leadership did, and then ordered our troops to "get -er done!" Thats how I look at it, I do not support the war they're fighting in, but since they're there I keep them in my thoughts/prayers and wish them to get home safely and as quickly as possible. I'm just glad this time around our country isn't treating the soldiers the same way it did back after Vietnam.

iaafan · Post by **iaafan** » Tue Mar 08, 2005 9:02 am

http://lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm

Some of you may have read this before. It was a hit back in its day and is brought up during times and conversations like these. It was written by a USMC Mjr. Gen. post-WW I. It has stood the test of time.

Ian · Post by **Ian** » Tue Mar 08, 2005 10:35 am

i've always found it hard to understand why some people relate opposition to the war with not supporting the troops. i have a friend who, when confronted with arguments against the war, takes it so personally that he starts to get offended on behalf of the soldiers, whose "efforts i am belittling", to paraphrase. at that point, i am an "overprivileged hypocrite who has the right to voice my opinion because of the work done by our troops before my lifetime". it is very hard to have a rational conversation about the real issue, the WAR, at that point because the argument has become personal and the focus is taken down to a level that would have nothing to do with the pros/cons of the war effort. i would say that any person who equates my opposition of the iraq war to not supporting our troops truly belittles my view of humanity and life and gives no credit where compassion is concerned.

To he!! with docs; check out this vid

To he!! with docs; check out this vid

Re: To he!! with docs; check out this vid