Why do the Cats and Griz Hate Each Other

gtapp · Post by **gtapp** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 5:31 pm

I have been wondering why there is so much hatred between the Cats and Griz. Both are Montana schools only 200 miles apart. Both are made up of primarily Montana kids (which I believe are of higher than average character). Their athletic teams all have Montana representation (kids we liked when they were in HS). They are both located in what is considered small college towns. Yet there is a great deal of HATRED! And for the few of you who insist you harbor no ill will toward the “other” team, you are by far in the minority. Case in point; at the end of the Garner Webb game early in the 2003 season (a game the Cats won easily) MSU stadium personnel put the Griz/NDSU game on the big screen over the end zone. Everyone stayed and cheered on NDSU. When the bison won the place went nuts. The crowd was more excited over the Griz loss than at any time during the MSU game. Another example in the same season was at the Northern Iowa/MSU playoff game. About 700 fans and boosters where in a conf room at a pre-game party when they piped in the end of the Griz playoff game. When the Griz lost there was more excitement than I had seen at most Cat games. We just don’t like each other.

For me personally; I went to High School in Hamilton. We partied in Missoula all the time, went to Griz football games and many of my classmates went to college in Missoula. My college girl friend transferred from MSU to U of M (Pharmacy major) and my brother graduated from U of M. Yet, I can’t stand U of M students, Griz fans and in most cases people who live in Missoula ( I have only talked to my brother once in nine years- hey he is a Griz).

I have been trying to figure out what is behind this. Could it be because?

• Griz fans are so obnoxious? Probably not since they say the same thing about us.
• Most Griz fans never went to the U or don’t live in Missoula. This is just weird. Why a retired farming couple who live just outside of Fort Benton or Malta would pick the non Ag school to cheer for.
• Griz fans seem to be fair weather fans. If you don’t believe this then you were not at those 70’s football games with 3000 – 4000 drunk students who could not tell you the final score or even cared. MSU’s fan based has remained constant 12K in the 70’s 8K-10K in the 80’s and 90’s and now 12K again. This is what it is and I don’t think it matters to most of us.
• The Streak! This certainly brought the dislike to new heights but we didn’t like each other before or since.
• The fact that their school produces Poets, Tree Huggers, Ambulance Chasers and McDonalds supervisors. Probably not, that just makes us smile and we do have a “Film and TV” curriculum.

So if it is not one or all of these than what is it?????

I guess it comes down to pure rivalry. Just like Michigan/Ohio State or Nebraska/Oklahoma or North Dakota/NDSU or Fort Benton/ Malta or Hamilton/ Stevensville. “They” represent the enemy, the “other” school. I would probably really like the guy from U of M if I just never knew he was from U of M. It is our nature. LONG LIVE THE “RIVALRY”!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

mslacat · Post by **mslacat** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 5:34 pm

gtapp wrote:I have been wondering why there is so much hatred between the Cats and Griz. Both are Montana schools only 200 miles apart. Both are made up of primarily Montana kids (which I believe are of higher than average character). Their athletic teams all have Montana representation (kids we liked when they were in HS). They are both located in what is considered small college towns. Yet there is a great deal of HATRED! And for the few of you who insist you harbor no ill will toward the “other” team, you are by far in the minority. Case in point; at the end of the Garner Webb game early in the 2003 season (a game the Cats won easily) MSU stadium personnel put the Griz/NDSU game on the big screen over the end zone. Everyone stayed and cheered on NDSU. When the bison won the place went nuts. The crowd was more excited over the Griz loss than at any time during the MSU game. Another example in the same season was at the Northern Iowa/MSU playoff game. About 700 fans and boosters where in a conf room at a pre-game party when they piped in the end of the Griz playoff game. When the Griz lost there was more excitement than I had seen at most Cat games. We just don’t like each other.

For me personally; I went to High School in Hamilton. We partied in Missoula all the time, went to Griz football games and many of my classmates went to college in Missoula. My college girl friend transferred from MSU to U of M (Pharmacy major) and my brother graduated from U of M. Yet, I can’t stand U of M students, Griz fans and in most cases people who live in Missoula ( I have only talked to my brother once in nine years- hey he is a Griz).

I have been trying to figure out what is behind this. Could it be because?

• Griz fans are so obnoxious? Probably not since they say the same thing about us.
• Most Griz fans never went to the U or don’t live in Missoula. This is just weird. Why a retired farming couple who live just outside of Fort Benton or Malta would pick the non Ag school to cheer for.
• Griz fans seem to be fair weather fans. If you don’t believe this then you were not at those 70’s football games with 3000 – 4000 drunk students who could not tell you the final score or even cared. MSU’s fan based has remained constant 12K in the 70’s 8K-10K in the 80’s and 90’s and now 12K again. This is what it is and I don’t think it matters to most of us.
• The Streak! This certainly brought the dislike to new heights but we didn’t like each other before or since.
• The fact that their school produces Poets, Tree Huggers, Ambulance Chasers and McDonalds supervisors. Probably not, that just makes us smile and we do have a “Film and TV” curriculum.

So if it is not one or all of these than what is it?????

I guess it comes down to pure rivalry. Just like Michigan/Ohio State or Nebraska/Oklahoma or North Dakota/NDSU or Fort Benton/ Malta or Hamilton/ Stevensville. “They” represent the enemy, the “other” school. I would probably really like the guy from U of M if I just never knew he was from U of M. It is our nature. LONG LIVE THE “RIVALRY”!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They smell

Cat Grad · Post by **Cat Grad** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 5:48 pm

gtapp: I agree with most of your post and think it's a great post! I suppose if I were to throw in the difference in our school's curriculum and the finished product we graduate versus theirs, our fundamental philosophical viewpoints toward the world and man's role in it would have a tendency to want us to see all their lawyers in the bottom of the ocean, their "journalists" relegated to a life writing for the Washington Post so we don't have to see it, their forestry school sent to Greenpeace's Headquarters, and their hippies to a rodeo where a few cowboys could get the sheepshears out

And of course, as they're our liberal source, the elitist mentality they harbor and what permeates each and every one of their discussions with us "backwards plowboy/cowboy idiots" doesn't aid our ability to reason with any of them. But, you'll see a few of them after a few years removed from the poison found in their academia's curriculi actually begin to think for themselves and apply a little real world logic to their discussions. We, on the other hand understand what the role of an engineer, architect, accountant, or computer science engineer is within the realm of utilizing scarce resources, and that's simply to get it and use it before anyone else and then we'll move on to a different source the earth has supplied for our benefit

Cat Grad · Post by **Cat Grad** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 5:51 pm

mslacat: Exactly. They're the parasites of society that sucks the lifeblood out of all working men and women and skews the thinking of reasonable men and women

UMfaninkazoo · Post by **UMfaninkazoo** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:01 pm

All I can say its a rivalry......do I have anyhting against people who went to MSU? No, most of my family went to MSU and I have nothing against people there......I have always rooted for U of M athletics and can't stand the Cat's........and living in Michigan and seeing the State- Michigan and Michigan-OSU rivalry, all I can say is the Griz-Cat rivalry is right up there, it's just that most of the nation never hears about it.

mchammer · Post by **mchammer** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:25 pm

I think the hatred between schools is just a game, with very rare exception. So I doubt that a serious response to the question is appropriate, but it's a good question. And since I'm stuck here fresh out of knee surgery I might as well comment.

So most of the talk is to stir up some excitement, period. I had a long talk with my counterpart on the UM staff about this three years ago. We met at midfield after our annual dual meet. I admitted to some negative recruiting, although not near the amount I was accused of. I also assured him of my respect for his coaching, and for him as a person. He said that he was sick of the hatred that he heard about all of the time. We agreed that it was stupid.

If it's really hatred, there's something very wrong, something unhealthy. I think the source of the hatred is fear, maybe even cowardice. Sports are a crucible, and they reveal character, and teach us where we might improve ourselves. If both schools are dedicated to this process, both are winners no matter what anyone might think or say.

The Griz do not suck. In fact, nothing sucks. Everything is challenge.

Mike

goat · Post by **goat** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 7:33 pm

i think most of the dislike is a result of the STREAK. or at least thats my personal thinking. i always tell griz fans after the cats beat you "however many god damn years in a row that was" you would feel the same way towards us. maybe for X amount of years of frustration just comes out in such a mean, aggressive manor. i guess for so many years life was tough being a cat and easy being a griz. case in point the fizz hoops team. i do not think they are the best team, yet they find a way to win the games that really count. so as i type, i am pissed again....

Cat Grad · Post by **Cat Grad** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 7:35 pm

whoa, slow down on the beer

Helcat72 · Post by **Helcat72** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 10:01 pm

I don't hate the people exactly, but the entity that is a grizzly. It's weird that I can go to Bobcat-Griz game over there. party with griz friends and enjoy doing it..and at the same time hating the ground that "grizzlies" walk on...but not the people. I think that is the difference between plain hate and a healthy rivalry.

I have to admit to actually hating the obnoxious fans that "rub it in". I try not to do that myself when the Cats win, not because I am overly civilized, but because I know how much it hurts, and payback is only a season away.

thecitygriz · Post by **thecitygriz** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 1:33 am

say i'm walking in the pedestrian crosswalk, and a car almost takes me out. i'm pissed, yellin', one-finger salute. and why? because some guy smells? no, because i'm powerless. check it out next time you feel angry or hateful. isn't it because you lack power? i mean, if you have power over somebody or power in any given situation, why be angry?

when i was a student, the bobcats held the balance of power in our rivalry. you had the better teams, and got most of the best players east of the divide, especially out of butte. then we hired heathcote and began a basketball tradition, brought in selvig who began a woman's basketball tradition, and a decade or so later hired don read about the time you were firing sonny lubeck. lubeck went on to become a legend elsewhere, while heathcote, read, montgonery, selvig, joe glenn and now krysko got us on tv, won championships, built up the fan support and facilities, and have become or are becoming montana legends in the process. will this last forever? of course not--everything but everything is cyclical. is kramer the stuff of legend? you bet. but despite his effort in rebuilding your program, the balance of power remains for now with the griz, and that's why you guys hate us, simple as that.

by the way, if you'd beaten us in portland, my whole-hearted support would instantly have gone to you, no hesitation, vascillation, indecision. we may be rivals but once we're out of it, you're the ones representing montana, and my support goes to you. see what a little power'll do for you?[/i]

CelticCat · Post by **CelticCat** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 9:50 am

thecitygriz wrote:say i'm walking in the pedestrian crosswalk, and a car almost takes me out. i'm pissed, yellin', one-finger salute. and why? because some guy smells? no, because i'm powerless. check it out next time you feel angry or hateful. isn't it because you lack power? i mean, if you have power over somebody or power in any given situation, why be angry?

when i was a student, the bobcats held the balance of power in our rivalry. you had the better teams, and got most of the best players east of the divide, especially out of butte. then we hired heathcote and began a basketball tradition, brought in selvig who began a woman's basketball tradition, and a decade or so later hired don read about the time you were firing sonny lubeck. lubeck went on to become a legend elsewhere, while heathcote, read, montgonery, selvig, joe glenn and now krysko got us on tv, won championships, built up the fan support and facilities, and have become or are becoming montana legends in the process. will this last forever? of course not--everything but everything is cyclical. is kramer the stuff of legend? you bet. but despite his effort in rebuilding your program, the balance of power remains for now with the griz, and that's why you guys hate us, simple as that.

by the way, if you'd beaten us in portland, my whole-hearted support would instantly have gone to you, no hesitation, vascillation, indecision. we may be rivals but once we're out of it, you're the ones representing montana, and my support goes to you. see what a little power'll do for you?[/i]

That is a good argument, but just because you have power doesn't mean you aren't an angry person. Look at Bullies in grade school. Certain jocks in high school who no one wanted to mess with, but he'd pick on/beat on anyone he wanted. But I do agree - if the Cats had been winning those 16 years straight, I probably wouldn't hate the Griz quite as much. But that is mostly because I wouldn't have to deal with arrogant fans all the time.

Instead there would be some sort of "eat sh*t bobcats go griz go" chant. Bizarro world!

mquast53000 · Post by **mquast53000** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 10:09 am

• Griz fans are so obnoxious? Probably not since they say the same thing about us

.

Gary, you have been to Griz games and Cat games, Griz fans are terrible! My wife was in the stands at the Griz stadium and a 40 yr old man was heckling her for the entire game! Heckling a woman fan? Come on, watch the game. I have noticed how obnoxious Griz fans are outside of the stadiums! I am a die hard fan and hate the Griz, but I don't get in a Griz fan's face! That has happen to me on a number of occasions. I just smile and walk away. GRIZ FANS ARE OBNOXIOUS and that just fuels the hatred for that school. A handle full of people can ruin it for everyone.

Litterbox · Post by **Litterbox** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 11:20 am

I grew up in a ranching family in Central MT, moved to Helena and graduated from Capital, a hick school, and went to MSU along with most of my friends because I didn't want to be around the Missoula hippies. When I was in Bozeman, I played up the hillbilly act as much as possible to piss off the hippies who lived in Bozeman. I still hated the griz at this time, though quite a few friends lived there. The Cat football games at this time were pathetic - 94/95/96. This wasn't because there was no community support, but because there was no student support. We'd go to the games most of the time, but no one cared (basketball was a different story). So when I changed my major after my sophomore year (from architecture to writing - I'm not a poet) and went to Missoula, I naturally got caught up in the frenzied football atmosphere. Almost every student cares about Griz football. I admit this is because they win and have a nice stadium. I still rooted for Cat basketball for a while, and then eventually just let go of that too when Sprinkle graduated. But I can tell you there isn't much difference between the two schools. The in-state students are the same people at both schools - and the out-of-state students are the same - liberal hippies. If you think they don't exist in Bozeman you're crazy. The ones in Missoula just have a higher profile, and MSU gets most of the ranchers from Eastern MT to balance things out. And to act like there's some different level of success between the schools is ridiculous. In the end about half my friends graduated from MSU, the other half UM, and our accomplishments are about the same. I'm 29 and a conservative English professor (out of state now), and a friend who went to MSU is now a liberal MD. The town of Bozeman "might" be more conservative than Missoula, but not by much, and the schools are seperate entities. The only difference between the athletic programs is that UM's been winning lately, has a nice stadium, and thus student support, which creates community support, which helps recruiting for all sports. The kids are the same, the fans are the same, one just has an opportunity to be more obnoxious because of recent success.

VictorG · Post by **VictorG** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 11:34 am

I guess we really must "hate" each other!

Gary, I want my beer back!!!!

Robcat · Post by **Robcat** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 12:33 pm

Well for what its worth here is my nickels worth. I grew up in the Libby/Kalispell area and all my HS friends were going to UM. At that point in time the only school I knew anything about was UM. However, I knew it was time for a change in my life and going to Missoula with all my buddies was not going to accomplish that goal. I chose MSU, that was one of the better decisions I made in my life. Most of my buddies flunked out of Missoula by Christmas time and if I would have joined them in Missoula, I to would have been part of those statistics.

Bozeman offered a differant socio/economic climate than western Montana and it was fun to be a part of a more conservative school. The Cats kicked but in those years, but we did not hate the Griz. Made every game be it football or BB. I am a Sigma Chi and everyone from the house, after the tailgate party of course, went to the games and we cheered our guts out.

Do I hate the Griz, no, would I ever cheer for them? I did this week against Weber. My family, whom is all Griz except me, and all my Griz friends have a lot of fun with the riveraly. Do I know some obnoxious Griz fans, yes I do, but believe me I avoid them.

One last point that has been mentioned several times on the thread, the streak created a lot of bad feelings. The Griz just got wat to full of themselves, in particular the younger fans. I have been on both sides this win/lose streak and believe me the youger Griz fans will get a taste of their own medicine. Healthy doses are very hard to swallow.

BozoneCat · Post by **BozoneCat** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 1:37 pm

Just my opinion here, but I feel like there is a HUGE difference between Bozemanites and Missoulians. They are about as different as two places 200 miles apart could possibly be. Bozeman definitely has its share of hippy-wannabes, but in Missoula they are mainstream, and definitely more outspoken, visible, and generally accepted.

I have noticed a very palpable difference in the general studiousness of kids at MSU vs. UM, and I would guess that has a lot to do with the curriculums offered at either school. MSU students seem (to me) to buckle down and "grow up" a few years ahead of their UM brethren, probably more out of necessity than willingness. It amazes me how many kids I know in grad school here in Missoula that still go out and party all the time during the week - maybe I'm just getting too old, but that thought just doesn't even cross my mind.

As to Mquast53000's experience with fans in Missoula, that is unfortunate and not a unique experience. Somehow, I would find it hard to believe that Bozeman is innocent from situations like this during Cat-griz, though. Anyone (yes, YOU bronco) who believes that one school is lily-white free from error and the other school is a haven for poor fan behavior is not only an idiot, but also sadly blind to society. I related an experience after Cat-griz this last year where 2 guys were harassing three women I was sitting with, blatantly and constantly. These women just happened to be Mike Kramer's wife and two daughters, although I doubt those morons knew that. They didn't say one word to me, although I was probably making more noise than any of them. Finally, after I couldn't take any more, I got up in their faces and told them to lay off the women, if they wanted to pick on someone we could just step outside and settle it amongst ourselves (we were way down at this point, so I was definitely not in a good mood). Of course, they backed down like good little bullies always do. They continued being obnoxious, but at least they quit directing their insults to the women. The thing that amazed me was not that this happened, but that none of the griz fans sitting around them told them to knock it off. I guess what I learned from this experience is that we can't change the world from this sort of thing happening, but we can do our own part to stop it if and when we see it happen at a game in Bozeman. Nothing wrong with fans cheering for their team, even obnoxiously, but there is no need to hurl insults at people you don't know just because they made a long trip over to cheer for the other team - and especially when those insults are directed at women. Since we are now educated and prepared for situations like these, I would hope that all posters on this board would make the choice to act in a classy manner and speak up if they see something like this happen in our stadium.

HelenaCat · Post by **HelenaCat** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 1:44 pm

I guess the main point we all need to remember is that a few bad apples do ruin it for everyone. I do think the griz have more bad apples-due to just more fans in general, and the 16 game streak. Most of my griz friends are good people who follow the griz because they went to school there. We have some fun ribbing each other but it is not taken poorly either way. I go out of my way to not rub things in when the Cats win because I do know how much it can hurt when it comes my way.

The fans that ruin it for many of us are the Bearbacs of the world. There are just some people that go out of their way to be a**holes and make me root against the griz no matter the situation. For example, after the Cat-griz game this year in Missoula, a number of fans were harassing the Cat players as they left the field. In addition, as my wife and I were standing outside the stadium waiting to meet up with my son (in our Bobcat blue and gold), a number of fans found it necessary to rub it in, including one young lady who walked by and just called my wife a b*****. But then we met a nice couple who went out of their way to congratulate us on a good game, asked questions about Travis Lulay, etc. So we all know that there are good fans on both sides-its just the obnoxious ones that get us to "hate" the other school.

I do think MSU needs to keep striving to develop an excellence in our athletic programs that matches the academic excellence we have developed. If we do that and there is a very healthy competition with um, the great rivalry that we have will continue, but the hatred will diminish. I know that I have already felt less antagonism towards the griz since we finally stopped the streak. Such a streak is really not a healthy thing and we have seen the effects of it firsthand. If MSU can continue to improve and we are battling um for the conference championship every year in all sports, all of MT would be better served.

HelenaCat · Post by **HelenaCat** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 1:54 pm

Great point Bozone. I do hope all of us make a point of calling out any of our Cat fans when they cross the line. I hope the good griz fans will also do the same. Nothing wrong with cheering hard for your team, but lets all do what we can to squash the obnoxious fans from both sides. Don't we all dream that someday we will get to meet bearbac in person and let him know what we think of him and his garbage?? I certainly appreciate people like CTOWM who will call him out periodically for his assinine comments and drivel. We need others on both sides who will take a stand.

GFGriz · Post by **GFGriz** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 2:12 pm

I suspect "the Streak" did a lot to turn this rivalry into something nasty for a lot of folks. Most are good sports, but there are some who have no perspective. I took my nephews to the Griz-cat game in Bozeman in 2001, and one took off to get a soda, dressed in his Griz sweatshirt and cap. He was 12. After he didn't return in a couple of minutes, I went down and found three cat fans had cornered him and were telling him they'd kick his *** if he ever came back there wearing Griz gear. There were plenty of folks around there, and none lifted a finger to stop this. He's sworn he'll never go back to that stadium, and I can't blame him.

Grizlaw · Post by **Grizlaw** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 2:29 pm

A lot of you know me from other forums, but this is my first post here. I thought I'd chime in...

For what it's worth, I don't hate the Cats. I just consider it a fun rivalry. A lot of my relatives and friends went to MSU, and we have fun with it. I do have a few random observations about the rivalry, though. In no particular order:

1. There are some obnoxious fans on both sides -- you're going to get that in any rivalry. The year the Cats beat the Griz in Bozeman, some friends of mine (Griz fans) actually had to leave several bars in Bozeman after the game because they were physically threatened by groups of Cat fans. I don't deny that there are obnoxious Griz fans too, but that's just not acceptable -- on either side.

2. Because of their success, the Griz have more fans that didn't go to the school. Some of these folks are good people, but I tend to think that a disproportionate percentage of the "obnoxious Griz fans" are from this group -- I say this because I think college football fans who actually attended the school they cheer for tend to realize that their conduct reflects on their school, and they have enough pride not to be jerks.

3. For whatever reason, I definitely think that the "hatred" in the rivalry is a lot stronger on the MSU side than on the Griz side. Maybe it's because of the streak; I don't know. I definitely do think that, on average, Cat fans hate the Griz a lot more than Griz fans hate the Cats, though.

The reality is, a lot of teams' fans hate the Griz. Portland State, Idaho (still, even though we're not in their conference), and to a lesser degree, EWU, all think of the Griz as their rival. (EWU was worse when Kramer was their coach, though -- Wulff doesn't make as many anti-Griz comments in the press as Kramer did when he was there.

)

I think Griz fans tend to view MSU's hatred of our team as being only slightly worse than that of all the other teams that hate us, whereas MSU fans view UM as basically their only rival. It's kind of like the New York athletic teams -- Boston is the true rival of the city, but Philly, Baltimore, and a lot of other cities also consider the NY teams to be their biggest rivals, and as a result, NY fans only see Boston's teams as a slightly bigger rival than all the other teams that hate them, whereas Boston's fans' hatred is channeled pretty unequivocally at NY. (I hope that sentence made some sense, because I'm not going back and rewriting it.

)

Anyway, just my .02 worth. Sorry to be so random; it's been a long week and my mind is sort of on autopilot at this point.

Why do the Cats and Griz Hate Each Other

Why do the Cats and Griz Hate Each Other

Re: Why do the Cats and Griz Hate Each Other

Hatred

For what it's worth...