Pre-war intel

[SonomaCat]

Scrutiny from whom? As I recall, that loudmouth from Vermont was about the only guy who voted against the use of force. If memory serves, I think there were a total of 3 nay votes in the House.

If anyone tries to scrutinize, all they'll accomplish is dumping a big pile of "you know what" on themselves. Political suicide only works in Hollywood.

Unlike you, I'm not pissed that I jumped to the wrong conclusions. I'm a "greater good" type person. So, I've clearly justified the invasion in my own mind based on the fact that I believe the world is a better place, and will continue to get better...even in spite of the daily bloodshed.

Off topic: Am I wrong, or doesn't Afghanistan and Iraq remind you of the old west? At least to me they do given what I've read about the American West. I think we'll start hearing more about vigilante groups and "Judge Roy Beans" in the future. One thing that has really been under the radar in both countries are the various militias that are operating.

I join you in hoping for the best going forward, and hoping that the ends do justify the means. To be any other way is, in my mind, truly messed up. However, I just can't get comfortable with the idea that our leaders have so little respect for the people of the U.S. that they think that they can misrepresent facts to suit their agenda, and that we will just accept it in fear of being called unpatriotic for criticizing them (see last election). It's that kind of cunning, brilliant, but utterly dispicable kind of politics that I just can't respect.

Unfortunately, it works, and words very well with many voters.

[Sigh] I just wanna live in a country where all of the politicians really care about ethics, and truth, and self-sacrifice, and truly doing what's best for the people of the country as opposed to worrying about strengthening their own power base. And I know I will forever be disappointed by both sides on that front. At least the Libertarians will never let me down, but mostly because they will never have any power to begin with.

[SonomaCat]

It's certainly not a partisan thing with me, so I take pride in that piece of consistency.

Yea right. I will remember that 4, 8, 12, whatever years from now. Maybe you should run for office yourself BAC. You seem to have all the answers to the "tough" issues (especially after the dust has settled) and obviously enjoy the power that comes with a high position, such as being the administrator of this board. Give me a preview of your campaign platform - but don't use the Bush sucks angle. Your hero tried that a few months ago with poor results.

I finally figured out who you were talking about when you said "Your hero." At the expense of splitting hairs on the facts of this conversation, John Kerry isn't my hero. You must have gotten some bad intel about me....

[mquast53000]

Politicians are dishonest? Of course politicians tell Americans what they want to hear. When you go to cast your vote it isn’t picking the best candidate as much as it is not picking the worse candidate. Look at all the Federal politicians… They all come from wealth… How can a man that has never worked a blue-collar job represent blue collared Americans? I HATE professional politicians. Their only job is being a politician? Are you kidding me? For all the problems our system has I can easily look past it, because we live in the greatest country in the world. One thing every American can agree on is that we are all lucky that we were born in the USA and not in Iraq! Count your blessings that one of our biggest complaints are Griz fans, not religious persecution…

[SonomaCat]

Politicians are dishonest? Of course politicians tell Americans what they want to hear. When you go to cast your vote it isn’t picking the best candidate as much as it is not picking the worse candidate. Look at all the Federal politicians… They all come from wealth… How can a man that has never worked a blue-collar job represent blue collared Americans? I HATE professional politicians. Their only job is being a politician? Are you kidding me? For all the problems our system has I can easily look past it, because we live in the greatest country in the world. One thing every American can agree on is that we are all lucky that we were born in the USA and not in Iraq! Count your blessings that one of our biggest complaints are Griz fans, not religious persecution…

Amen, brother. We are very lucky indeed.

And actually, my comments about Clinton's impeachment run along the same lines in that its amazing how big of a deal that seemed back then, but how today it seems so silly. There's nothing like a war to put things into perspective. The 90's were kind of a Disneyland decade for us -- everything was milk and honey, and relatively small problems were blown out of proportion to fill in the void (as we had few real problems).

After 911 and the subsequent related and unrelated war, people's perceptions of many things are way different than they were a few years ago.

To tag on to my wish to Santa for ethical politicians is a wish for an alternative fuel source to oil so that we can build a big wall around the middle east and ignore them completely for the rest of time. That place is going to be a mess forever -- it's just the way that region works.

[iaafan]

Amen to that amen. And as for alt. fuels we can only wish. But folks can now buy hybrid vehicles and they will be more readily available in the near future.

I read a story on hybrids a few days ago and the writer almost made it seem as if there's no point in buying a hybrid, because the savings at the pump doesn't outweigh the extra cost. Oh never mind the environment and our dependence on foreign oil.

I'm sure someone will come back with their knocks on hybrids, because there are so many misconceptions out there about them.

[info197176]

..and how can any logical person complain about Griz fans??

[briannell]

BAC-

the only reason you get to bitch about our President and his political choices is because we (the military) put our asses on the line every day! I work mostly with biological and chemical hazards, have been overseas many times, and on my way back to iraq. we prepped from the early 90's to remove these hazards, and yes 9/11 gave us what we needed to enter Iraq. As a former Pentagon man (head asst. to EPA), you the general public do not get the full spectrum of this problem. I sat before the Joint Chiefs, and several Congressional committees prior to 9/11 discussing this very issue.

Although no WMD's were found in completion many of the materials used to manufacture them were and we're still disposing of them. Know that majority of what we find or do will not been on the news or disclosed. Basically, you don't know s**t about what we have found or what we are doing to protect this country from these insane individuals.

We may have also unfortunately had to take the lives of many Iraqi nationals, but we mourn them like we do our fellow soldiers. There is not right or wrong here. it was a moral duty to remove that evil regigm, we will make it better, but it takes time. Just know that you are MUCH safer because of our involvement in Iraq.

Count your blessings, stop complaining!

CPT Nell

[SonomaCat]

BAC-

the only reason you get to bitch about our President and his political choices is because we (the military) put our asses on the line every day! I work mostly with biological and chemical hazards, have been overseas many times, and on my way back to iraq. we prepped from the early 90's to remove these hazards, and yes 9/11 gave us what we needed to enter Iraq. As a former Pentagon man (head asst. to EPA), you the general public do not get the full spectrum of this problem. I sat before the Joint Chiefs, and several Congressional committees prior to 9/11 discussing this very issue.

Although no WMD's were found in completion many of the materials used to manufacture them were and we're still disposing of them. Know that majority of what we find or do will not been on the news or disclosed. Basically, you don't know s**t about what we have found or what we are doing to protect this country from these insane individuals.

We may have also unfortunately had to take the lives of many Iraqi nationals, but we mourn them like we do our fellow soldiers. There is not right or wrong here. it was a moral duty to remove that evil regigm, we will make it better, but it takes time. Just know that you are MUCH safer because of our involvement in Iraq.

Count your blessings, stop complaining!

CPT Nell

Brian,

Thank you for the work that you do, but please don't go down the "don't complain about our President or else I will accuse you of not supporting the troops and/or being unpatriotic and/or the only reason you can is because of us....."

If you can point out an error in any of the facts that I have posted or logical errors in my statements, then please do so. I am more than willing to learn more or better information. That's why I bring up these topics -- to challenge others while learning from them in return. However, I am not for a second going to "stop complaining" about our President's decisions if I don't agree with them.

Please continue to educate me, but don't expect me to acquiesce to you on all critical opinions simply because you are in the military. That's the kind of logic that works in Pakistan and Turkey, but not the U.S. Yes, the military through history has gained and preserved our freedom more times than I'm sure we know. However, that formula only works if the military then lets us exercise that freedom without trying to silence us when they don't agree with us. That's our social compact -- we respect what you do for us, and you don't try to hold it over our heads.

If we had a smoking gun that validated anything tying 911 or WMD to Iraq, I am positive the public would know about it. The political capital there would necessistate it, and no politician would turn down the opportunity to say "See, I was right!" We have lost too much face internationally already to turn down an opportunity to gain redemption on the basis of facts. But believe me, if we could show that we were right, I would be happier than almost anyone. I kind of like it when we are right.

Once again, thank you for doing what you do for a career and for our country -- that I respect beyond words. However, nobody who made the decisions to put you guys into those situations has done anything to deserve the same accolades, so their decisions are well within the sphere of critical review.

[briannell]

Brad,

My husband is excellent at his job, and does not spook easy. i know that what they found (CHPPM) center for promotion preventative medicine did just that. He was very uncomfortable, and was scared he had been exposed to something. he was gone almost 10 months and I don't even know where he was exactly, but it was middle east. Yes he sat before Strom Thurman and John MaCain, as well as with biological warfare experts from various military labs and CDC. i know things exist that the general public does not, and NO you'll never hear about it, you do not have clearance. I'm the wife, and we have ways of making our husbands talk. it scares me to know what you don't.

Mainly biological in nature I'm assuming and NO CNN would not know these things, and NO they (Pres. Bush and his cabinet) wouldn't disclose because we "were never there". kinda of like Laos. My dad took 6 bullets as a special forces officer in Laos during the vietnam era BUT "we were never there." So why are bullets still lodged near his spine?I can tell you we unload a lot of s**t to Kwaj in the Marshall Islands where he and co-workers disposed of it.

You can have all the political views in the world, but you are foolish to think that you will learn all intel as a citizen in the US. You will never learn about Operations run under secret clearance. Americans are foolish to trust the news, it is spin. You will never be given intel, because as an "average" citizen you "don't need to know".

No your not unpatriotic to disagree with the military or the President, that's your right, that's why soldiers die, so you can always have that right. This is not holding over your head just pure fact. If you think these guys (and girls) overseas are foolish to believe that we are truely making a difference in the world being there, try signing up and seeing Iraq first hand before you state your opinions. You really don't have a clue what they've accomplished in Iraq, because many units don't allow press into their camps. They have done wonders and the Iraqi people, Not the extremists love them for what they have done.

I think the history books will show that our country saved millions of lives from a tyrannt, and in doing that we've upheld our moral obligation to other countries and to democracy itself.

Rebecca

[Hell's Bells]

BAC-

the only reason you get to bitch about our President and his political choices is because we (the military) put our asses on the line every day! I work mostly with biological and chemical hazards, have been overseas many times, and on my way back to iraq. we prepped from the early 90's to remove these hazards, and yes 9/11 gave us what we needed to enter Iraq. As a former Pentagon man (head asst. to EPA), you the general public do not get the full spectrum of this problem. I sat before the Joint Chiefs, and several Congressional committees prior to 9/11 discussing this very issue.

Although no WMD's were found in completion many of the materials used to manufacture them were and we're still disposing of them. Know that majority of what we find or do will not been on the news or disclosed. Basically, you don't know s**t about what we have found or what we are doing to protect this country from these insane individuals.

We may have also unfortunately had to take the lives of many Iraqi nationals, but we mourn them like we do our fellow soldiers. There is not right or wrong here. it was a moral duty to remove that evil regigm, we will make it better, but it takes time. Just know that you are MUCH safer because of our involvement in Iraq.

Count your blessings, stop complaining!

CPT Nell

Brian,

Thank you for the work that you do, but please don't go down the "don't complain about our President or else I will accuse you of not supporting the troops and/or being unpatriotic and/or the only reason you can is because of us....."

If you can point out an error in any of the facts that I have posted or logical errors in my statements, then please do so. I am more than willing to learn more or better information. That's why I bring up these topics -- to challenge others while learning from them in return. However, I am not for a second going to "stop complaining" about our President's decisions if I don't agree with them.

Please continue to educate me, but don't expect me to acquiesce to you on all critical opinions simply because you are in the military. That's the kind of logic that works in Pakistan and Turkey, but not the U.S. Yes, the military through history has gained and preserved our freedom more times than I'm sure we know. However, that formula only works if the military then lets us exercise that freedom without trying to silence us when they don't agree with us. That's our social compact -- we respect what you do for us, and you don't try to hold it over our heads.

If we had a smoking gun that validated anything tying 911 or WMD to Iraq, I am positive the public would know about it. The political capital there would necessistate it, and no politician would turn down the opportunity to say "See, I was right!" We have lost too much face internationally already to turn down an opportunity to gain redemption on the basis of facts. But believe me, if we could show that we were right, I would be happier than almost anyone. I kind of like it when we are right.

Once again, thank you for doing what you do for a career and for our country -- that I respect beyond words. However, nobody who made the decisions to put you guys into those situations has done anything to deserve the same accolades, so their decisions are well within the sphere of critical review.

we didnt have smokeing guns but i do remember reports of mobile wepons labs developed exclusively to create chem. wepons as well as droans that were created to distribute them....but the San Fran. paper wont even dream of publishing said info unless it is detremental to bush....for example...we found Iraqui wmd's in the presidant's sock drawer.

I am hoping that, being the educated man you are that you take Cptn. neill's info...inasmuch as he can provide without having to goto jail...as somthing serious because he actually was in iraq...that reporter for the newspaper......i doubt it as a matter of fact i am sure he is quoteing a british secritary *not at all involved with finidng intelligance unless it involves passing of papers to blair*

[SonomaCat]

The article was written by the Washington Post, but yeah, I'm sure it was biased against Bush... yada, yada, yada.

[SonomaCat]

Brad,

My husband is excellent at his job, and does not spook easy. i know that what they found (CHPPM) center for promotion preventative medicine did just that. He was very uncomfortable, and was scared he had been exposed to something. he was gone almost 10 months and I don't even know where he was exactly, but it was middle east. Yes he sat before Strom Thurman and John MaCain, as well as with biological warfare experts from various military labs and CDC. i know things exist that the general public does not, and NO you'll never hear about it, you do not have clearance. I'm the wife, and we have ways of making our husbands talk. it scares me to know what you don't.

Mainly biological in nature I'm assuming and NO CNN would not know these things, and NO they (Pres. Bush and his cabinet) wouldn't disclose because we "were never there". kinda of like Laos. My dad took 6 bullets as a special forces officer in Laos during the vietnam era BUT "we were never there." So why are bullets still lodged near his spine?I can tell you we unload a lot of s**t to Kwaj in the Marshall Islands where he and co-workers disposed of it.

You can have all the political views in the world, but you are foolish to think that you will learn all intel as a citizen in the US. You will never learn about Operations run under secret clearance. Americans are foolish to trust the news, it is spin. You will never be given intel, because as an "average" citizen you "don't need to know".

No your not unpatriotic to disagree with the military or the President, that's your right, that's why soldiers die, so you can always have that right. This is not holding over your head just pure fact. If you think these guys (and girls) overseas are foolish to believe that we are truely making a difference in the world being there, try signing up and seeing Iraq first hand before you state your opinions. You really don't have a clue what they've accomplished in Iraq, because many units don't allow press into their camps. They have done wonders and the Iraqi people, Not the extremists love them for what they have done.

I think the history books will show that our country saved millions of lives from a tyrannt, and in doing that we've upheld our moral obligation to other countries and to democracy itself.

Rebecca

Rebecca,

I'm sure your husband does know a lot of things that we don't know. I have no doubt about that. And I do appreciate what they are doing over there, and I am in favor (as I have said numerous times) of the work they are doing. I don't think they are wasting their time or their lives -- quite the contrary.

My sole and consistent gripe has been with the way that the administration sold the war to the American people and the world -- I feel they were dishonest. You need to be able to separate that specific criticism of Bush from any suggestion of slighting the troops themselves or the work they do. They are two completely different issues.

And although I am sure there is a lot going on that I don't know (I have friends and family over there too, so I hear suggestions of the same), I am certain that if we had any firm evidence that linked 911 or WMD to Iraq and made what we said going into the war true, we would have heard about it. The White House press secretary would have no motive to keep that a secret. In fact, the White House issued a report admitting that there were no WMD. I can think of no reason why they would lie about something like that to proactively make themselves look foolish.

If somebody provides me evidence to the contrary, I would be very interested in learning more about it.

And, again, I am with you in hoping that history looks back on this war, and the events that it subsequently gives rise to, as the start of a very positive chain of events in the middle east. Don't worry, I'm cheering for the good guys.

[SonomaCat]

Although I will pose this question -- I am hearing a lot of people use the phrase "moral obligation" in speaking of this war. I can see that point perfectly -- if we can help people, we should do it.

However, in a political context, this argument takes us down a uneasy path. Do we have this same moral obligation to free ALL people from their murderous oppressive leaders? Do we have an obligation to next go into the various African countries that are experiencing genocide at the hands of their leaders? Where do we stop? What is our role in the world in this regard? Do we invade Saudi Arabia next? Their human rights record is not much better than Saddam's. The world gets really confusing when these questions are asked, and I'm not even going to pretend to know the right answers.

[Ponycat]

Personally, I'm pissed about our weatherman, despite all the best information that all the other channels also used, he LIED about the weather.

[Cat Grad]

This thread is pretty good and like the young Captain states: What the government knows is on a need to know basis and the general public does not need to know what we found. Weapons of mass destruction and the delivery methods can all be found under nearly any seach for Nuclear, Biological, Chemical...glad I'm in a sparsely populated area.

[SonomaCat]

Personally, I'm pissed about our weatherman, despite all the best information that all the other channels also used, he LIED about the weather.

But interestingly enough, the other stations came to different conclusions and gave a different forecast, so your weatherman mocked them and made the wrong prediction on his own. Then when it turned out that the other stations were right and your weatherman was wrong, he just said that the weather didn't matter anyway, and that we should have been more worried about the sports broadcast.

[SonomaCat]

Although I will pose this question -- I am hearing a lot of people use the phrase "moral obligation" in speaking of this war. I can see that point perfectly -- if we can help people, we should do it.

However, in a political context, this argument takes us down a uneasy path. Do we have this same moral obligation to free ALL people from their murderous oppressive leaders? Do we have an obligation to next go into the various African countries that are experiencing genocide at the hands of their leaders? Where do we stop? What is our role in the world in this regard? Do we invade Saudi Arabia next? Their human rights record is not much better than Saddam's. The world gets really confusing when these questions are asked, and I'm not even going to pretend to know the right answers.

I am sincerely very interested in hearing anyone's answers to this question. It seems to be one that we now need to answer as a country.

[Cat Grad]

Hate to see anyone go down that slippery slope; however, we are the free world's leader as China is the world's population center leader and India is becoming more of an international player. We have to work in unison with the emerging world leadership and maintain our ties to our European allies and naturally, we have more than a casual interest in some of the huge resource reserves in Africa. How would we develop a viable trade agreement with the thug governments presently in place in Africa? I would suppose it's in our countries best interests to insure a peaceful environment for the many oilfield and mineral extraction companies that would be called upon to develop the region.

[iaafan]

I'd say it's our moral obligation to do something. I would not say it's our moral obligation to send the military. I don' t think anyone in the military should feel like that is what they signed up for.

But did going to Iraq have anything to do with moral obligation? Is that what this is all about? Or is it a little more complicated? Figuring out the Iraq War (called the War on Terror, which it may not be) is like investigating a crime scene. Put the clues together and what are the possibilities? Greed, revenge, terror, liberation, moral obligation? All of the above. Which is most likely to be the main reason?

So "moral obligation" is the term used by a defensive nation. We want to believe we are in the right, moral as it were, to go to Iraq, because the contrary would be hard to swallow. It's a 'throw it against the wall and see if it sticks' term. It hides, or at least obscures, the evidence. Is it there to prolong things for a long enough time that maybe we'll become distracted? It isn't that we have a moral obligation, it's just that we need an excuse. We tried terror, but that isn't sticking. Greed and revenge aren't being looked at too closely. Lets liberate Iraq, because it's our moral obligation, but that leads us back (no pun intended) to BAC's question.

[mquast53000]

Although I will pose this question -- I am hearing a lot of people use the phrase "moral obligation" in speaking of this war. I can see that point perfectly -- if we can help people, we should do it.

However, in a political context, this argument takes us down a uneasy path. Do we have this same moral obligation to free ALL people from their murderous oppressive leaders? Do we have an obligation to next go into the various African countries that are experiencing genocide at the hands of their leaders? Where do we stop? What is our role in the world in this regard? Do we invade Saudi Arabia next? Their human rights record is not much better than Saddam's. The world gets really confusing when these questions are asked, and I'm not even going to pretend to know the right answers.

Moral obligation… Well here is what I think… We chose Iraq because they were a major threat that we couple topple in DAYS. This would make other threats Syria, Saudi Arabia, North Korea and so forth see that the US means business. You turn your TV to CNN and you could watch a missile go down a bad guy’s chimney. This was a warning. Sure there are other countries that need to be dealt with, but the US is going to start with the ones that pose a REAL threat to us. There are some REALLY bad guys running some of those African countries, but they are not capable of doing and mass destruction to the US or the US’s allies (ie Israel). Iraq was the example of the US’s capabilities. Do you remember that North Korea was about to begin missile testing over Japan right before we enter Iraq? Well they held off on these missile tests… This wasn’t a “Moral Obligation” so much as it was a memorandum to the rest of the world saying “Don’t f*** with the US!” To protect America in today’s world means setting examples, and that is precisely what we did in Iraq.