NEWSWEEK store recanted

[Grizlaw]

Well I guess that they don’t really care that Newsweek went and retracted the story. Some of these people will only believe what they want to believe fact based or not.

I've been meaning to post about this, actually -- the New York Times has run front page stories for the past two days reporting that a U.S. investigation has found several (apparently credible) cases of Koran abuse at Guantanamo Bay. The story emphasized that the report does NOT report evidence of the "flushing down the toilet" incident, but there is apparently corroborated evidence that the book has been abused on several occasions.

So no, they probably don't care that Newsweek retracted. (Not that they would anyway; I still maintain that they are just looking for something to protest, and Newsweek only gave them an excuse.)

EDIT: Just to edit this quickly -- I read the article quickly, but I believe what it actually reports is that PRISONERS there have alleged that the book has been mistreated; I'm not sure if any U.S. military personnel have corroborated.

Also, here's a link. You might have to start an account to view it, but it's free. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/26/politics/26koran.html?

[Hell's Bells]

Well I guess that they don’t really care that Newsweek went and retracted the story. Some of these people will only believe what they want to believe fact based or not.

I've been meaning to post about this, actually -- the New York Times has run front page stories for the past two days reporting that a U.S. investigation has found several (apparently credible) cases of Koran abuse at Guantanamo Bay. The story emphasized that the report does NOT report evidence of the "flushing down the toilet" incident, but there is apparently corroborated evidence that the book has been abused on several occasions.

So no, they probably don't care that Newsweek retracted. (Not that they would anyway; I still maintain that they are just looking for something to protest, and Newsweek only gave them an excuse.)

EDIT: Just to edit this quickly -- I read the article quickly, but I believe what it actually reports is that PRISONERS there have alleged that the book has been mistreated; I'm not sure if any U.S. military personnel have corroborated.

Also, here's a link. You might have to start an account to view it, but it's free. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/26/politics/26koran.html?

i would not trust the words of prisnors since they have reason why to bring down the us...unless it is co-oberated which it wasnt

btw i wodner how far the story would go if it were a bible instead of a koran? would we be talking about free speach?

[Grizlaw]

i would not trust the words of prisnors since they have reason why to bring down the us...unless it is co-oberated which it wasnt

btw i wodner how far the story would go if it were a bible instead of a koran? would we be talking about free speach?

I think we all understand the prisoners' potential motivation, and can weigh their statements accordingly.

I don't quite understand what you meant by your second sentence, though. Are you suggesting that the NY Times would have expressed a greater degree of certainty that the events happened if it were a bible instead of a Koran?

--GL

[Hell's Bells]

i would not trust the words of prisnors since they have reason why to bring down the us...unless it is co-oberated which it wasnt

btw i wodner how far the story would go if it were a bible instead of a koran? would we be talking about free speach?

I think we all understand the prisoners' potential motivation, and can weigh their statements accordingly.

I don't quite understand what you meant by your second sentence, though. Are you suggesting that the NY Times would have expressed a greater degree of certainty that the events happened if it were a bible instead of a Koran?

what i mean is this: if it were a bible that was desicrated would there be such an uproar?

--GL

[Grizlaw]

what i mean is this: if it were a bible that was desicrated would there be such an uproar?

Hmm...I'm still not sure I understand the point you're trying to make. Are you talking about the uproar in this country, or the uproar in the Middle East?

In this country, the vast majority of Christians would care very little if a Bible were desecrated -- I'm a fairly observant Catholic myself, and if I heard of a Bible being desecrated, I personally would shrug it off and recognize that the desecration of the book was a symbol of the desecrater's disapproval of the book's teachings. It would cause me concern, but it certainly would not cause me to take to the streets in protest, much less violence. In this country, the uproar has been caused more by Newsweek's journalistic shortcomings than by the actual desecration of the Koran.

In the Middle East, on the other hand, it is the alleged mistreatment of the Koran that is causing the outrage (although I guess we can drop the "alleged" from the description -- all reports now indicate that some mistreatment has probably occurred, although the initially reported incident has not been confirmed). I still contend that the degree of outrage in the Middle East is a product of the rioters' environment, not their religion itself -- if that were not the case, Muslims in this country would also be protesting and rioting.

So to answer your question -- would desecretation of a Bible cause the same uproar? Probably not in this part of the world -- perhaps elsewhere.

[Hell's Bells]

what i mean is this: if it were a bible that was desicrated would there be such an uproar?

Hmm...I'm still not sure I understand the point you're trying to make. Are you talking about the uproar in this country, or the uproar in the Middle East?

In this country, the vast majority of Christians would care very little if a Bible were desecrated -- I'm a fairly observant Catholic myself, and if I heard of a Bible being desecrated, I personally would shrug it off and recognize that the desecration of the book was a symbol of the desecrater's disapproval of the book's teachings. It would cause me concern, but it certainly would not cause me to take to the streets in protest, much less violence. In this country, the uproar has been caused more by Newsweek's journalistic shortcomings than by the actual desecration of the Koran.

In the Middle East, on the other hand, it is the alleged mistreatment of the Koran that is causing the outrage (although I guess we can drop the "alleged" from the description -- all reports now indicate that some mistreatment has probably occurred, although the initially reported incident has not been confirmed). I still contend that the degree of outrage in the Middle East is a product of the rioters' environment, not their religion itself -- if that were not the case, Muslims in this country would also be protesting and rioting.

So to answer your question -- would desecretation of a Bible cause the same uproar? Probably not in this part of the world -- perhaps elsewhere.

nice point. however, a big question would be why is there such an uproar in this country over the desicration of the koran? why is the koran being treated as superior to other books? could it be that we are hyper sensative as to what other nations percieve us to be like? I probibly look like the world's biggest hypricrite by asking these quesitons but they do need to be asked, seems like hardly anyone that is credible is asking them. As to the "desircration", i am going to let history be the judge. GrizLaw I doubt we know all that is going on there...a part of me is thinking that the detainees are minipulating the press like their little bitch...trust me there are people in the world that would minipulate others to get what they want

[Grizlaw]

nice point. however, a big question would be why is there such an uproar in this country over the desicration of the koran? why is the koran being treated as superior to other books? could it be that we are hyper sensative as to what other nations percieve us to be like?

There could be some of that, although I would argue that such sentiments are not wholly unjustified. The thing is, it's not the treatment of the Koran itself that is causing the outrage; it is the context -- the desecration of the Koran in front of prisoners is seen as mistreatment of the prisoners themselves, and *that* is what is causing the outrage.

I think it has a lot to do with our moral position. We have always been the first to criticize other regimes for human rights abuses (the former Communist countries, Iraq, Cuba, North Korea, etc.), and I think a lot of people feel that by choosing to claim the moral high ground, our own behavior in that regard has to be beyond reproach.

Any conduct by U.S. troops that smacks of prisoner mistreatment costs us in terms of credibility when we criticize other countries for similar conduct. So yes, I do think sensitivity to how other countries view us is a factor, but I would argue that it is a legitimate factor.

--GL

[mquast53000]

Not a very valid point Grizlaw. Iraq, Russia and North Korea have killed millions of people! Russia through “political camps”, North Korea through starvation and Iraq through mass genocide. I think comparing the minimal negative US actions in the Iraq to other actions in the world is not comparing apples to apples...

[Grizlaw]

Not a very valid point Grizlaw. Iraq, Russia and North Korea have killed millions of people! Russia through “political camps”, North Korea through starvation and Iraq through mass genocide. I think comparing the minimal negative US actions in the Iraq to other actions in the world is not comparing apples to apples...

That wasn't really my point, Quast.

I wasn't saying they are the same; I was explaining why the desecration of the Koran is causing such outrage in this country. It's not the desecration itself that's offending people, it's the fact that people see it as mistreatment of prisoners. That was my only point; I wasn't trying to compare the U.S. to the regimes I mentioned.

[mquast53000]

Grizlaw if I don’t keep on top of your posts you will start thinking you are always right, and then we end up with another BAC-and you would be worse bc you are a griz fan.

[Grizlaw]

Grizlaw if I don’t keep on top of your posts you will start thinking you are always right...

What -- thou darest question whether I am always right??

[mquast53000]

Grizlaw if I don’t keep on top of your posts you will start thinking you are always right...

What -- thou darest question whether I am always right??

A lawyer who is a griz fan… Of course you think that you are always right!

[Hell's Bells]

http://www.washingtontimes.com/national ... -7932r.htm

according to the administration as well as those who were probing the koran flush incident there is a operation going on as to spreading false rumors/stories of "torture" or "mistreatment"...ie the koran flush incident as well as all torture claimes comming out of gitmo.

[Grizlaw]

That article speaks for itself, but just let me just say this. Having lived in the DC metro area for two years, I do not have any respect for the Washington Times. I used to read it occasionally as an alternative to the Post and the Wall Street Journal, but the political bias of its editors is obvious, and I found that they often omitted key facts from their stories to paint the picture they wanted. I'd be curious to see how (or if) this was reported in the WSJ (another conservative publication, but one that exhibits substantially higher journalistic quality IMO).

Unfortunately, I bought the NY Times this morning instead of the Journal (I read both about 50/50), so I can't check it out now. Maybe later...

[Hell's Bells]

That article speaks for itself, but just let me just say this. Having lived in the DC metro area for two years, I do not have any respect for the Washington Times. I used to read it occasionally as an alternative to the Post and the Wall Street Journal, but the political bias of its editors is obvious, and I found that they often omitted key facts from their stories to paint the picture they wanted. I'd be curious to see how (or if) this was reported in the WSJ (another conservative publication, but one that exhibits substantially higher journalistic quality IMO).

Unfortunately, I bought the NY Times this morning instead of the Journal (I read both about 50/50), so I can't check it out now. Maybe later...

really thats why i dont read newsweek. all that I was trying to point out by giving the link to that article is that disinformation about the tortures at gitmo is possibly happening...about news organizations exhibiting political bias did you watch 60 minutes wendsday when dan rather paraded nothign but anti bush this anti bush that, everybody in journalism is trying to be a left winged limbaugh