You're gonna burn in hell (but not the one by TS)

[SonomaCat]

Throughout the time on Bobcat Nation, the ESPN board and Rivals, BAC simply picks a topic, then an opinion and argues just to argue. Even if he believes in the opposition, I think the guy just likes playing "devils advocate" and loves to debate. Should have been a lawyer BAC - especially since you want to go to hell.

You're on to me.

[SonomaCat]

I'm just a big fan of JC's "Do unto others" credo

So am I.

...and I leave the eternal damnation stuff to people who need/want it for whatever reason (to scare them into following the rules, to feel superior to others, to have a sense of purpose, to be able to say "hell" without it qualifying as a swear word, etc., etc.).

Christians aren't supposed to make ourselves "superior to others," because we're all sinners. None of us are perfect, and all of us need Christ's redemption. And I can say "Hell" when ever I want, just like you can say "Montana": they're both locations, so why wouldn't I be able to say "Hell?"

I'm not really speaking of Christians, as I doubt we define that term the same way, so we will be comparing apples and oranges. I am talking specifically about people who openly tell others that they are going to spend eternity in hell unless they start believing exactly what they believe in terms of religion.

I can't speak of you, as I don't know what's "in your heart," but it seems to me that way too many of those people take a certain amount of joy in telling other people that they are going to hell unless they convert to "X". A sort "you'll see that I'm right and you're wrong when you're burning in hell" sort of thing. Those are the people who I think are using their religion to feel superior to others and likely have some underlying inferiority issues that they are masking.

It's quite possible that you believe the whole "nonbelievers go to hell" thing, but that it makes you sad, and that you wish it wasn't true. It's possible that you personal wish that all good Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, atheists, etc., would be gained access to heaven due to the how they acted on earth as opposed to who they worshipped. You might be telling us this stuff so that we would have an opportunity to join you, as a community service of sorts. If that is sincerely the case, then I have no problem with that thinking. I just don't believe in it. I think there are a couple trillion possibilities for how the whole afterlife works, and that scenario has exactly the same chance of being right as the other couple trillion possibilities, but as long as that theory is advanced without a sneer, I'm fine with it. Too often, though, the sneer is way too prevelant.

On the theological side, when did JC say anything about worshipping him or going to hell? I don't remember that one coming up in any of his sermons. It seems to me that some person after-the-fact came up with that theory. I just hope they had no ulterior motive of using fear to advance their own personal cause or anything. That would be unfortunate.

One question, just out of curiosity: Based on your personal beliefs, is Pope John Paul II in heaven or hell?

[Grizlaw]

Throughout the time on Bobcat Nation, the ESPN board and Rivals, BAC simply picks a topic, then an opinion and argues just to argue. Even if he believes in the opposition, I think the guy just likes playing "devils advocate" and loves to debate. Should have been a lawyer BAC - especially since you want to go to hell.

This reminds me of a story from my second year of law school. I was in Property with Professor Natelson, and he had called on a woman in the class and asked her whether she thought the outcome of the case we were discussing was consistent with other precedent. She was sort of waffling in her answer and debating both sides out loud, to which Natelson responded "you might as well just pick a side and argue it; I'm going to argue with you no matter which side you choose."

[hokeyfine]

bac: that last comment was a good explanation of your beliefs. the "in your face" christians are the ones who are the most hypocritical. i remember watching jimmy swaggart on tv and him telling me i'm going to hell if i don't repent, and his biting sarcasm. We finally learned that the one who crows the loudest is usually the worst type. No one can see what's in our hearts. we try to understand and follow our beliefs everyday. people need to try less condemnation and more inspiration.

[gtapp]

The BIBLE: Best selling book of FICTION ever written!

George Carlin's Three commandments:

1. Always be honest and faithful to the provider of thy nooky.

2. Try real hard not to kill anybody unless they pray to a different invisible man than you pray too.

3. Keep thy religion to thyself!

[mquast53000]

It is official, bobcatnation has broken the cardinal rule; “Don’t speak about politics & religion to strangers.” Since we broke a cardinal rule and not a commandment I hit a couple of points for BAC:

It's possible that you personal wish that all good Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, atheists, etc., would be gained access to heaven due to the how they acted on earth as opposed to who they worshipped.

Hey BAC, the Jews are God’s chosen people. They will be in heaven. The rest…all bets off (especially the “extremist” Muslims)

One question, just out of curiosity: Based on your personal beliefs, is Pope John Paul II in heaven or hell?

No one knows that answer, but most Christians would say that he is in heaven. You could ask “is Hitler in heaven or hell?” and again most Christians would say hell but know one knows for sure. You asked this question to be troublesome, go figure.

[SonomaCat]

mquast: In my specific conversation with HC, it is apparent that Jews are not going to heaven in his view. That is why I included them in that line. That, of course, does not agree with my personal opinion.

I wasn't asking the Pope question to be "troublesome," but rather to figure out exactly how narrowly HC defines "Christians" and the term "accepted Christ as their savior." The question is quite significant, actually. As you know, terms like Christian are used much differently by different people. From the context of the conversation we have already had, I am quite sure that he feels that Hitler is in hell. However, I was not able to determine how the Pope would be categorized. His answer to that question will clue me in and give me more insight into where he is coming from.

I don't mind having similar conversations on this topic with anyone, but the specific things I said and asked were speaking directly to HC and the personal beliefs that he and I were discussing.

['93HonoluluCat]

t seems to me that way too many of those people take a certain amount of joy in telling other people that they are going to hell unless they convert to "X". A sort "you'll see that I'm right and you're wrong when you're burning in hell" sort of thing. Those are the people who I think are using their religion to feel superior to others and likely have some underlying inferiority issues that they are masking.

It's quite possible that you believe the whole "nonbelievers go to hell" thing, but that it makes you sad, and that you wish it wasn't true. It's possible that you personal wish that all good Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, atheists, etc., would be gained access to heaven due to the how they acted on earth as opposed to who they worshipped. You might be telling us this stuff so that we would have an opportunity to join you, as a community service of sorts.

I agree completely. The Christians that don't have any humility and feel superior because "they're right any everyone else is going to hell" does nothing to help. Their "holier than thou" stance and attitude dilutes the message the rest of us that are honestly trying to show people: the Truth out of a sincere desire to help and prevent the sorts of suffering that is at the end of one path of life, and a life everafter ultimately more enjoyable at the end of the other path--the one leading to Christ.

I just don't believe in it. I think there are a couple trillion possibilities for how the whole afterlife works, and that scenario has exactly the same chance of being right as the other couple trillion possibilities, but as long as that theory is advanced without a sneer, I'm fine with it. Too often, though, the sneer is way too prevelant.

And that line of thinking--however wrong I may think it is--is up to you. I can only present you the Truth, and let you decide.

On the theological side, when did JC say anything about worshipping him or going to hell? I don't remember that one coming up in any of his sermons. It seems to me that some person after-the-fact came up with that theory.

Well, I immediately think of John 14:6:

I am the way, the truth and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me.

Another is Matthew 7:12-14:

You can enter God's Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose the easy way. But the gateway to life is smal, and the road is narrow, and only a few ever find it.

One question, just out of curiosity: Based on your personal beliefs, is Pope John Paul II in heaven or hell?

I don't know. That matter is between him and God now. Only if he accepted Christ as the only payment for his sins is he in heaven. By the way, this issue is at the core of why Martin Luther posted his note on the cathedral door and broke from the Catholic church.

[SonomaCat]

In other words, you believe all Catholics are going to hell (unless they cross over and drink your flavor of Kool-Aid).

I just don't understand the motivation to buy into a religion that is so enthusiastic about the idea of somehow having a monopoly on "Truth" (based exclusively on faith, which precludes one from considering alternative theories) and castigating everyone (else) to eternal damnation in hell. I just don't understand.

Fortunately, it's not my problem, as long as people don't try to interject that kind of thinking into public policy.

['93HonoluluCat]

...based exclusively on faith, which precludes one from considering alternative theories...

Isn't that true of any belief system, regardless if its Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, or Humanism? Sitting on a chair, for that matter, involves a certain amount of faith--faith that it's not going to break and spill you onto the floor, for instance.

By the way, when people swear why is it that it's always "God d@$#" and not "Mohammed d@$#" or "Buddha d@$#"?

[iaafan]

I think purpose of religion was so we'd have a reason for being here. Without it, and it's a good one, there's no point. It's great to think that when you die, you go somewhere nice. And even if you don't, you'd like to think your loved ones do.

If there is a God, do/does they/it/he/she expect anyone in this day and age to believe or even have faith? To simply believe based on a book (bible, koran, whatever) that was written hundreds of years ago? Were the authors anymore partial than our journalists today? Getting past that part is just a prerequisite to selecting one of the many religions out there.

Until we come up with a better reason for being here (or maybe explanation) these Al Qaeda, thence Iraq War scenarios will continue to play out.

Take your pick: Will science or religion bring peace to Earth?

[gtapp]

Take your pick: Will science or religion bring peace to Earth?

SCIENCE!!!!

My father was an Ape, my grandfather a gator and my great grandfather a fish!

I wonder what my great grandkids will become?????

['93HonoluluCat]

If there is a God, do/does they/it/he/she expect anyone in this day and age to believe or even have faith?

I can't see the wind, but I can see the effect of the wind. It's not as big a stretch as you think to have faith in something you can't see, but know is there.

[SonomaCat]

If there is a God, do/does they/it/he/she expect anyone in this day and age to believe or even have faith?

I can't see the wind, but I can see the effect of the wind. It's not as big a stretch as you think to have faith in something you can't see, but know is there.

But it IS a huge stretch to assume to know exactly what the wind's opinions are and how the wind feels you should act and what the eternal punishment for not knowing "The Truth" about the wind, even when the wind has never bothered to tell anybody itself.

Your faith analogies are insightful in Buddhist sort of way, but fall way short of providing the guidance that would lead one to properly assume that they knew "The Truth" about spirituality at the exclusion of all other religions.

And personally, I take comfort in understanding the science behind the creation of wind and how it ties into nature and the world around us. That gives me more comfort about the nature of wind than simply observing the effect of it, which is all the writers of the Bible and other Holy Books of the world had at their disposal. With the advancement of science and knowledge, we began to realize the mythical nature of much of those books. This didn't diminish their impact as there were lessons of morality that were infused within them, but it allowed us to see them in their proper context as opposed to a literal reading of history.

Knowledge is good. Where knowledge ends, faith must begin.

[SonomaCat]

...based exclusively on faith, which precludes one from considering alternative theories...

Isn't that true of any belief system, regardless if its Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, or Humanism?

Some forms of Christianity and Muslim, yes, do demand a level of faith that precludes people from considering alternative theories (in other words, it demands that people substitute faith for intellectual scrutiny). Buddhism and Humanism don't have these same requirements (in fact, Humanism is exactly the opposite -- it is based solely on reason as opposed to faith).

I am just curious, and although I notice that you have been somewhat avoiding the topic, could you tell me this: Within the framework of your faith, exactly which religions (specific Protestant branches, as we have already shown the Catholics the road to hell), if one follows the tenets of that religion to the t, will allow a person to go to your vision of heaven? I am just curious as to exactly how small this pool of people is. As part of the community service aspect that we discussed earlier, you probably should let us know exactly which religions are going to damn us. You use the term "Christians" a lot, but you seem to use that term to the exclusion of many/most/nearly all people who consider themselves Christians.

['93HonoluluCat]

If there is a God, do/does they/it/he/she expect anyone in this day and age to believe or even have faith?

I can't see the wind, but I can see the effect of the wind. It's not as big a stretch as you think to have faith in something you can't see, but know is there.

But it IS a huge stretch to assume to know exactly what the wind's opinions are and how the wind feels you should act and what the eternal punishment for not knowing "The Truth" about the wind, even when the wind has never bothered to tell anybody itself.

I don't think it's as big a stretch as you think, BAC. There are some things you just don't or can't do while in windy environments (the chorus from Jim Croce's "Bad Bad Leroy Brown" comes to mind here ). The wind never told anybody "the rules" of what can and cannot be done in the wind. We all had to learn either first-hand, or by being told "the rules."

Christianity is better than just being blown by the wind: God's Word (the Bible) shows us the way we should live our lives. I challenge anyone (including myself) to live according to the Bible. Let me spare you the frustration: you can't do it. But yet living according to His rules is the only way to get to heaven. Only one person has been able to do that, and he walked on the earth about 2000 years ago, and was nailed to a cross as payment for our--and I mean "our" as an all-encompassing term--shortcomings. It is through Christ's sacrifice that eternal life in heaven is possible. All required of us is personal acceptance of that sacrifice.

God doesn't want rituals--He wants a personal relationship like you would have with your best friend.

[SonomaCat]

So that last line speaks to your belief that Catholics go to hell? So, once again, what specific religions, in your view, DO go to heaven? I'm curious as to how exclusive of a group this is.

Again, if this all works for you and makes you happy, that's great. You do have to realize how it irritates some people when a person proclaims that they and/or their family and friends are going to be damned to an eternity in hell because they don't believe in the exact same thing religiously as you.

From the outside looking in, the whole hair-splitting exercise that you go through to get to the point of damning others seems incredibly arbitrary and irrational. If there is a God keeping score out there, you'd think he'd care more about how people act and how they treat others as opposed to what narrow views they hold regarding God, Jesus, etc.

As an alternative view, I put forth the argument that the evangelical church (or however you would choose to describe your faith) that holds the narrow views on heaven and hell have actually been deceived by Satan and God. It is similar to the Job story, but with a twist and a lot less suffering. In this modern incarnation, God is testing people by letting Satan lead a religion that is self-righteous and condescending towards all other people. Satan substitutes the concept of blind faith in a narrow and judgmental ideology in the place of God's original concept of "do unto others" and ignoring the gift of reason he gave us, and then they see what people sign on for that faith.

When it comes time to pass judgment, God is sending those who followed Satan's self-righteous evangelical faith to eternal damnation in hell, while those people who were nice to other people go to heaven. In this way, God expresses his excellent sense of irony.

I give that theory an equal footing with yours (roughly one in a trillion). After all, if whether or not you are nice to others isn't the primary measure of one's acceptance into heaven, then God is a real jackass. I'd like to think that's not the reality.

[briannell]

wow. I don't think i'll be touching this one much, and besides i'm supposed to be the cranky poster not KMAX However, I will add this both my grandpa and great grandfather were ministers so i'm kinda of a Bible thumper myself, and I do recall something about as long as you repent and accept Christ as your savior prior to death you are forgiven your sins. BAC has time left to dabble with his hell theory, but I think he'll probably goto Heaven and continue to argue with 99% of the posters there. most individuals don't REALLY want to burn in hell, not terribly fun.

-rebecca

ps i'm luckily covering my bases : born into a Jewish family, but raised Lutheran, attended 12 years Catholic school which required me to attend mass every morning. hope it works out for me.

[SonomaCat]

ps i'm luckily covering my bases : born into a Jewish family, but raised Lutheran, attended 12 years Catholic school which required me to attend mass every morning. hope it works out for me.

If I'm reading HC's theories correctly, according to his belief system, you're going to hell. Sorry, you picked the wrong religions. None of those are winners.

That's case in point why I think that whole philosophy is so mucked up.

[jagur1]

If both BAC and I are going to hell. Who wins the Cat/Griz game in hell?