You're gonna burn in hell (but not the one by TS)

Post by **SonomaCat** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 10:12 am

That's a good question, but we sure as hell will have to get a satellite feed in one of the sports bars there. It should be a good time ... unless the Griz get lucky and win.

hokeyfine · Post by **hokeyfine** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 10:13 am

jagur: it always ends in a tie. remember, there is no pleasure in hell. your are forever tormented with the fact that the cats and griz are equal.

'93HonoluluCat · Post by **'93HonoluluCat** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 11:25 am

BAC wrote:So that last line speaks to your belief that Catholics go to hell? So, once again, what specific religions, in your view, DO go to heaven? I'm curious as to how exclusive of a group this is.

It's not an exlusive group. Anyone who admits their sin and accepts the sacrifice of Christ's death in their stead gets to go. There's no secret handshake or doorknock to get in. Catholics will be separated just like Protestants: those that made the decision for Christ will go to heaven, and the rest won't. The same is true of everyone--regardless of how "evil" they are. If they repent of their sin, and accept Christ's justification. And I do mean everybody: Osama bin Laden and the Dali Lama could both go to heaven if they follow this "two step program."

BAC wrote:Again, if this all works for you and makes you happy, that's great. You do have to realize how it irritates some people when a person proclaims that they and/or their family and friends are going to be damned to an eternity in hell because they don't believe in the exact same thing religiously as you.

First, it doesn't make me happy to know that anybody is going to hell. It also is no pleasure pleading with parents and other relatives either. But without me telling the Truth, they would be lemmings running over the cliff at full speed.

BAC wrote:From the outside looking in, the whole hair-splitting exercise that you go through to get to the point of damning others seems incredibly arbitrary and irrational. If there is a God keeping score out there, you'd think he'd care more about how people act and how they treat others as opposed to what narrow views they hold regarding God, Jesus, etc.

God does care about how we act and treat others. We are to do it perfectly. Anything short of perfection is sin. Sin is the reason for Christ's sacrifice on the cross. Acceptance of His gift and admiting our sin gets us in to heaven.

BAC wrote:After all, if whether or not you are nice to others isn't the primary measure of one's acceptance into heaven, then God is a real jackass. I'd like to think that's not the reality.

Again, God does care about how we treat others: weren't you the one who said he liked Christ's "credo" of treating others how we want to be treated?

I do admit, though, I have erred. The salvation we have through the sacrifice of Christ is not the primary way to get to heaven. Being perfect in everything we do, think, or say is the primary way. But since no one can be perfect, Christ's redemption and justification is a "back door" to heaven.

briannell · Post by **briannell** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 11:42 am

bac - darn it! guess i'll have to expand myself a little. i'm spread a little thin as it is, or at least it sure appears that way. i'm no holy roller, still think that if you read the Bible and learn from it you see that the only way for anyone to get to heaven is through Christ. Jesus proclaims it himself, the "church" isn't a building or doctrine it is the people. those that chose to follow Christs teachings and the laws given to Moses by God on High. "religion" is a crap shoot, if you read your bible you know the truth and it's not what some preacher says on Sunday morning (grandpas rolling over now) it doesn't take but one preacher Jesus Christ to get the message of redemption.

sorry HC93, you can go every Sunday to whatever Church you belong to, but the only requirement ANYONE needs to get to Heaven is Christ in their heart. Oh, yeah NO GRIZ FANS ALLOWED, so start rooting for the Bobcats!

-rebecca

off my soap box now

Post by **SonomaCat** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 11:44 am

But the overarching theme is that if even if one follows the tenets of other religions perfectly, they still won't go to heaven unless they "accept Christ" in the manner that your particular religion dictates, right? I know you keep trying to avoid the appearance of exclusivity by saying that "anyone" can go to heaven if they accept Christ, but clearly you don't think that any of the other religions get a person to that place, and they must cross over and drink your specific Kool-Aid. Otherwise, why did you change religions in the first place? Clearly, you believe that your current religion is the only "right" religion and all of the rest are flawed.

Just remember, if I am right and you are wrong in my assertion that your religion is being led by Satan (as God is way too nice and confident to have such silly arbitrary hoops to jump through for heaven), you will spend eternity in hell, which you believe is a bad place (since it's your concept, you get to deal with it). If I'm wrong, then the only downside is that I was wrong about something that I won't even remember talking about in another couple months.

But I'm still positive that I will win that $2.

Post by **SonomaCat** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 11:55 am

All of that being said, I kind of feel like I have just finished a passionate debate over some subtle views on the rules of Dungeons and Dragons or something.

briannell · Post by **briannell** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 11:58 am

BAC -didn't change religions. Dad and his family are Jewish, so therefore he practices and we respect and participate in some high holy day functions. I was raised lutheran, and baptized that way, still goto Lutheran Church.
Parents placed me in Catholic schools ( kept girls and boys strictly regulated, seperated in high school) and they required everyone to attend mass during the school week. wow!

I do feel everyone has the right to they're religious beliefs and respect the way they feel. I try to learn from their views. personally, I do believe in the Biblical teachings i was raised on.

-rebecca

Post by **SonomaCat** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:03 pm

briannell wrote:BAC -didn't change religions. Dad and his family are Jewish, so therefore he practices and we respect and participate in some high holy day functions. I was raised lutheran, and baptized that way, still goto Lutheran Church.
Parents placed me in Catholic schools ( kept girls and boys strictly regulated, seperated in high school) and they required everyone to attend mass during the school week. wow!

I do feel everyone has the right to they're religious beliefs and respect the way they feel. I try to learn from their views. personally, I do believe in the Biblical teachings i was raised on.

-rebecca

Sorry -- that particular comment was to HC. I didn't see your post until after I had posted it.

Hell's Bells · Post by **Hell's Bells** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 1:24 pm

why dont you try to think with an open mind bac

Post by **SonomaCat** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 1:35 pm

Hell's Bells wrote:why dont you try to think with an open mind bac

Are you trying to win the "Ironic post of the Year" competition? How much more close-minded can one get than HC's position (he claims to know the absolute truth with zero wiggle room, and is telling a large number of us, probably including you, that we are going to hell)? In contrast, I profess to have no idea what the supernatural has in store for us, and I don't seriously put forth any theories, which is the epitome of being open-minded. The fact that I give his theory only as much credence as anyone else's (which is very little, as there are billions of people with billions of ideas on the topic) hardly makes me close-minded.

I read something really funny this morning that ties into this discussion pretty well:

There's two guys, one in a pink-triangle T-shirt, the other wearing a giant cross. Cross guy takes out a stick and starts whapping pink-triangle guy over the head with it: WHAP WHAP WHAP WHAP. Pink-triangle guy gets annoyed and says, "Would you stop doing that, please?" Cross guy looks shocked and says, "Why, that's. . .that's. . . anti-Christian bigotry!"

So in other words, just because somebody doesn't appreciate being damned to hell by someone else (who they know has no more or less hard evidence about what happens after death) does not make one close-minded. Rather, it shows that they can think for themselves.

Post by **SonomaCat** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 1:56 pm

In other words ... if you were to ask anyone to be more open-minded, I should be far, far down on your list.

Unless, of course, being open-minded to you means "Shut up and mindlessly belief what I/we/they believe without challenging anything I/we/they say." If that is the case, then you just don't know what the term actually means.

CelticCat · Post by **CelticCat** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 2:21 pm

You have to be open-minded to accept religion, not reject it BAC. And if preaching bothers you so much, just ignore it. Or use my favorite tact, resort to extremely childish comebacks such as "You're going to hell!"

Personally I am no longer religious, I have no problem with people telling me I'm going to hell, I remind myself daily that is my destination. I was raised a Lutheran and about the time I could start making decisions for myself, I decided religion wasn't for me. But I'm very greatful for being raised in a Christian environment like that. It made me into the tolerant, considerate person I am today. I like the principles taught by religion, but I decided long ago I'm going to live the way I want to live my life, not the way anyone else wants me to, including beings that I can't see or hear.

But I respect religion enough to not speak out on something that so many people hold dear to their heart. Where I live and the people I know, no one preachers religion to me, but I overhear it sometimes. It doesn't bother me when people do preach it to me, I simply tell them I believe what I believe, and you believe what you believe.

BAC - you are complaining about the extremists of the religious body. But you have to give a little respect before you expect to receive some, you sound like the kind of guy just waiting to pounce on anyone who shares their religious beliefs with you. Sure there are people who are going to tell you how to live your life and why you should live it that way, religion isn't the only medium that does that. Nobody is wrong.

Post by **SonomaCat** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 2:34 pm

I have to disagree with one point: you have to be close-minded to accept religion. That's what faith is all about. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but I feel it is an improper use of the language to suggest that open-mindedness leads to devout religious beliefs. It's simply not true.

I generally challenge everybody's opinions on everything, especially my own. I know we have an idea in this country (especially since 911) that we aren't supposed to challenge people in terms of religion, lest we be accused of being hostile to religion. I don't buy that argument. It seems to me that any opinion that anyone holds should be challenged for their own good. The better able they are to defend that opinion or belief, the better off they are.

I feel no duty to pay more respect to somebody's opinion simply because it is based on faith. Similarly, my opinions are worth no less if they happen to be based on reason.

I agree fully that nobody is wrong. Nothing can be proven either way -- that's been my entire point. However, keep in mind that I was not the one that ever suggested that I was right. My whole stance was that I wasn't wrong simply because somebody's faith points a finger at me as being damned to hell.

Perhaps the best policy when somebody starts preaching is to ignore them -- that is often the case. However, I see no harm in trying to figure out more about why they think the way they do, and even challenging their beliefs. Who knows, maybe in the process of being preached to, I can convince someone else to truly adopt "open-minded" approaches to philosophy and life.

Although I do like the "You're going to hell!" comeback. I kind of used that a couple times as well.

EDIT: It should be noted that I was raised Catholic, so perhaps when people are suggesting that I am not being open-minded to religion, perhaps it is based on the assumption that I have never been exposed to religion. I have read many, many books on various religions and have attended church services more times that I can count, so I am coming from a point of view of understanding what the whole thing is about.

Hell's Bells · Post by **Hell's Bells** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 2:51 pm

judging from some of your posts about religion in general BAC it seems that you have some sorta grudge against christanity in general. Lord only know what happened to make your point of view so skewed...and i apologise for it because whatever happened probibly wasnt cool. I know athiests, a couple of them are my best friends. While i get some ribbing for going to church, never to that degree. So in my opninion H.C. is more open minded then you, but then again watching u 2 argue is just like watching 2 closed minded people argue...actually its kinda funny

briannell · Post by **briannell** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 2:58 pm

bac - just curious about something, are all AGR men taught to argue to the death? i know another one just as blunt and arguementative and simply wonder if it's a "brotherhood" kinda of thing. or do you just like making others want to jump out windows to avoid arguements over certain topics? personally, i'd rather jump than argue. so i'll wait to check out some new threads. good luck with H.C.

-rebecca

oh, thanks for apology

Post by **SonomaCat** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 3:02 pm

Hell's Bells wrote:judging from some of your posts about religion in general BAC it seems that you have some sorta grudge against christanity in general. Lord only know what happened to make your point of view so skewed...and i apologise for it because whatever happened probibly wasnt cool. I know athiests, a couple of them are my best friends. While i get some ribbing for going to church, never to that degree. So in my opninion H.C. is more open minded then you, but then again watching u 2 argue is just like watching 2 closed minded people argue...actually its kinda funny

Yep, HC is open-minded.

Even he wouldn't suggest that.

To calm your suggestions that bad, bad things happened to me to make me hostile to Christianity (as anyone who doesn't accept Christianity is clearly hostile to it in the minds of many insiders), I came to this point by learning about lots of different cultures from lots of different people, and realizing how silly it was for any one religion to claim that it and it alone held the truth. That kind of arrogance and close-mindedness (and on a more disturbing level, bigotry) began to annoy me, regardless of which religion made that claim. I refuse to believe that any religion is right (to the exclusion of all others) or that any religion is without its positive aspects.

And I particularly refuse to believe that you are going to hell simply because you are Catholic. That just seems silly to me.

So yes, I guess I'm just not open-minded enough to assume everyone else is wrong except me. That's a logical pretzel for ya.

Hell's Bells · Post by **Hell's Bells** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 3:03 pm

briannell wrote:bac - just curious about something, are all AGR men taught to argue to the death? i know another one just as blunt and arguementative and simply wonder if it's a "brotherhood" kinda of thing. or do you just like making others want to jump out windows to avoid arguements over certain topics? personally, i'd rather jump than argue. so i'll wait to check out some new threads. good luck with H.C.

-rebecca

oh, thanks for apology

wait...its possible bac can be wrong

Post by **SonomaCat** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 3:07 pm

briannell wrote:bac - just curious about something, are all AGR men taught to argue to the death? i know another one just as blunt and arguementative and simply wonder if it's a "brotherhood" kinda of thing. or do you just like making others want to jump out windows to avoid arguements over certain topics? personally, i'd rather jump than argue. so i'll wait to check out some new threads. good luck with H.C.

-rebecca

oh, thanks for apology

I usually stop prior to death, but generally just past the point where the substantive debate breaks down and the partisans start taking shots at me outside of the scope of the discussion. It's a well worn routine than has been honored for years.

Most AGRs I know really aren't much for long debates, actually, with a few notable exceptions.

Post by **SonomaCat** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 3:09 pm

Hell's Bells wrote:
briannell wrote:bac - just curious about something, are all AGR men taught to argue to the death? i know another one just as blunt and arguementative and simply wonder if it's a "brotherhood" kinda of thing. or do you just like making others want to jump out windows to avoid arguements over certain topics? personally, i'd rather jump than argue. so i'll wait to check out some new threads. good luck with H.C.

-rebecca

oh, thanks for apology
wait...its possible bac can be wrong

I'm not sure what that means... of course I can be wrong. If I couldn't, don't you think I'd have a better job (like King or something) by now?

The game is for you to find a argument where I am wrong and to point that out to me so I can learn from it.

CelticCat · Post by **CelticCat** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 3:17 pm

It's not just religion I don't voice my opinions about, it's damn near everything. The main reason is I just respect almost every lifestyle choice there is, excluding crime and being a Griz fan. Plus I'm not the kind of guy to care about world issues, politics, abortion, what have you. I find worrying about those things just makes me age faster.

Don't get me wrong I love a good argument, but I like to argue about stupid things. Me and my friends are like a carbon-copy of Seinfeld tossed in with the stupidity and maturity of Animal House. We'd rather argue about whether peeing in the shower is acceptable vs if killing an unborn baby is.

It takes work not to care, people don't give me enough credit.