Money vs. Risk/talent discussion - split from 9/11

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Bleedinbluengold
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Post by Bleedinbluengold » Tue Jul 12, 2005 10:46 am

briannell wrote:YES, there are loop holes seldom used in order to retain specialties the Army is desperate for, generally these are the medical officers (which Brian is one). Basically, the Army retains you without really your expressed consent, but fast track you promotions to upgrade your pay and they will pad it with extra benefits. the Army needs Brian's skills with chemical and biological hazards/environmental engineering, so the Army will promote him to major early. they have given him a Lt. Col., head chief position at a duty station of choice (Ft.Lewis) and have agreed in 3 years to let him more back to Bozeman for PhD program which the Army will pay all expenses, give him full pay plus benefits, and housing allowance. He is now assured Lt. Col promotion and allowed to return to Ft. Lewis to either retire/stay to full bird or allowed to go teach at West Point until needed by the Pentagon again.

-rebecca
Well, it's the LEAST America can do for her military, in my opinion. One issue that my bud and me get on our soap box about is how CEO's get millions for doing little tangible work (I'll concede that most are good leaders, and that is worth a lot, but not millions), while soldiers, like your Brian, risk their life every day...There's something just not right about that situation.

I don't think there could EVER be enough perks for the troops.


Montana State IS what "they" think Montana is.

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Post by mquast53000 » Tue Jul 12, 2005 11:02 am

Bleedinbluengold wrote: Well, it's the LEAST America can do for her military, in my opinion. One issue that my bud and me get on our soap box about is how CEO's get millions for doing little tangible work (I'll concede that most are good leaders, and that is worth a lot, but not millions), while soldiers, like your Brian, risk their life every day...There's something just not right about that situation.

I don't think there could EVER be enough perks for the troops.
This is an argument that I hate hearing. It is like saying why do professional athletes get paid more then a teacher... The reason the CEOs and professional athletes get paid so much is because they are elites at what they do. I met some real numbskulls that were majoring in education in Bozeman, and it made me think that just about anyone can teach. The same can not be said about professional athletes. The same goes for CEOs. They are very intelligent and put in some serious hours of working. They are the cream of the crop in the business world, and are paid accordingly. In the military a general will make over 100K (the cream of the crop). In my book that is a lot of money! When you enter the military you have made a career choice, and you know that there is a certain amount of danger when you signup. You have to keep in mind that we are not drafting soldiers, all of these men and women joined the military through their own free will.


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Post by Bleedinbluengold » Tue Jul 12, 2005 11:10 am

I don't disagree with your argument. Pro athletes and CEO's aren't in the same category to me. Pro athletes are entertainers, and we pay entertainers based on the number of people they entertain. I have no problem with that.

I would say that the CEO's of most (not ALL) Fortune 500 companies were raised with a silver spoon, were GIVEN an education, and GIVEN their position in life - without risking much, if anything. Some CEO's earn their money, I agree...but I would say that you or I could do those jobs equally well.

I think that asking a person to risk their life, daily, in order to go to work is worth more than asking a person to "read the Wallstreet Journal." I know I would have a hard time coming to work for my paycheck if I knew that EVERY single day, all day, someone was trying to kill me.

All I'm saying is that we should put things in perspective, and to me, the perspective is way out of wack with respect to CEO's.


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Post by El_Gato » Tue Jul 12, 2005 11:30 am

One of the things I've contemplated as I think about my future political career is the plight of our WAR veterans.

I do believe that it is OK to differentiate between folks who served in the military versus those who were actually involved in an armed conflict. To me, a VET is someone who actually saw action; who faced death because he/she was ordered into battle. With that in mind, one of the "perks" I believe we should offer VETs is free medical care for life.

I also believe that their medical care should be of the VETs choosing. I'm amazed that we continue to waste tens of millions of dollars in VA hospitals, doctors, staffs, etc. and force our VETS to go to specific locations in order to receive medical care, oftentimes a significant distance away from their homes. Why not just let them go to a doctor of their choice and simply pay the bills for them? To me, this would be a valuable way to compensate the folks who've been shot at while defending our country; IMO, we owe them at least this much...


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Post by SonomaCat » Tue Jul 12, 2005 11:34 am

I split this out because it seems like a pretty interesting topic on its own merits.

I'm personally a big free market guy, but the points brought up here do give some good examples of where the free market doesn't always give us the best answer (or maybe the lack of a free market doesn't give us the right answer if one wants to point to teacher's unions as the cause of standard salaries for teacher as opposed to merit pay based on performance).

It seems like a lot of what it boils down to is that there are a lot of non-monetary items at play that impact the equation as well. We are all selfish creatures, although each of us is selfish in different ways. (NOTE: Selfish doesn't imply anything bad, it just that we place personal value in things that we want or cherish beyond just money). For instance, someone who goes into the military may value the concept of serving their country to a high degree, so their selfish desire to do so (again, not a negative connotation) makes the lower salary acceptable. There might also be elements of glory or admiration from others that add to the value of that job. That being, said, I am fully in favor of paying them fairly ... this only goes to explain why people might still enlist absent a good salary.

Some of the same elements are in play for teachers, although the values might be a bit different. The desire to serve the public or to work with children is at play. The desire for lots of time off might add to it. And, yes, some people that go into teaching just aren't very bright, so they don't have the option of chasing after higher paying jobs. (I have lots of teachers in my family and as close friends, so I'm quick to say that "not very bright" group is an unfortunate minority, because all the teachers I know personally are brilliant :wink: ).

Executive salaries generally are earned when the companies are successful (as mquast noted, they are the cream of the crop, and their value is dictated by how well they can do their jobs). However, I do think that are some very real problems in the equation with executives making a truckload of cash for failing. I have seen way too many execs get fired for sucking at their jobs, and then getting a couple million dollars on their way out the door. That's mostly due to our litigious society (it's basically a pay-off to not sue for any number of likely bogus, but still potentially costly, matters) as well as a bit of a modern old boys and girls club. They look out for each other as they might need a cushy job in the future, and you never know when you will run into each other again. I guess the only answer to this problem is for Boards to be stronger and more independent of the execs themselves. This part is getting a bit better in the wake of Enron and all of the additional scrutiny on corporate America that resulted (along with trillions of dollars of completely useless regulations on corporations in the form of Sarbanes-Oxley).

I unfortunately could go off on any number of rants from here, so I will just stop there....



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Post by geogfather » Tue Jul 12, 2005 11:53 am

mquast53000 wrote:This is an argument that I hate hearing. It is like saying why do professional athletes get paid more then a teacher... The reason the CEOs and professional athletes get paid so much is because they are elites at what they do. I met some real numbskulls that were majoring in education in Bozeman, and it made me think that just about anyone can teach. The same can not be said about professional athletes. The same goes for CEOs. They are very intelligent and put in some serious hours of working. They are the cream of the crop in the business world, and are paid accordingly. In the military a general will make over 100K (the cream of the crop). In my book that is a lot of money! When you enter the military you have made a career choice, and you know that there is a certain amount of danger when you signup. You have to keep in mind that we are not drafting soldiers, all of these men and women joined the military through their own free will.
OK, I'll Bite. Quast, I dont doubt for one minute that you met some bad apples that were in the school of ed, But I can tell you from experience that there are numbskulls, in the school of buisness, Marketing, and yes even engineering. One of my best friends is an engineer and if he can do it its living proof that anyone can.

We can go on and on about people being paid to much or to little, but If you are trying to tell me that paying a teacher 21,000 a year is enough for what they do you are out of your mind. I am a teacher here in Las vegas, Unfortunatly I had to leave Montana due to college loans and such. It wasnt free for me so I had to leave, once I get the debt paid off I will go back, but untill then i am stuck here in the 120 degree heat. Why... well because I make about 10k a year more here than i would have in MT. Still not enough to get into the housing market here where the average home goes for over 300K. Now, I didnt go into education to make money, and anyone whoe tells you they did is full of shi@. I simply want to get by, pay of my debt, and teach kids.

Im not saying that myself or anyother teacher should be making millions or anything like that. I think most teachers just want people to realize that a cocktail waitress that makes 80K a year for walking through a casino in a short skirt is getting paid way too much when the local teachers are starting at 30K.

Let me give you another example: a friend of mine teachers at Chap high school here. One day his student answers his phone in class and promtly gets up and leaves class. Said student left class because work called and asked him to come in early. Student works at the Wynn making 60 thousand a year running errands for high rollers. This guy is 18! Its hard to tell a kid your education is important when that happens.

OK I guess I have vented enough for now.



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Post by briannell » Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:09 pm

Quast made the point that professional athletes deserve the obscene money they make, and just from personal knowledge (grew up with NFL players :aaron taylor, amani toomer,scott sanderson, todd blackwell, and cfl's ali abrew, NBA's Brent and Drew Barry,) yeah, they work hard, but they are paid too much to play a game for a living. one of my parents good friends is charlie krueger, he's an old timer 49er, great guy, but didn't need the big bucks to enjoy playing pro ball for a living, and he thinks the salaries are too large these days. it's not like these guys cure cancer. they will leave no lasting impact on society other than a little enjoyment on sunday.

i think teachers should be paid a great deal more because they DO leave a life long impression on the country.

CEO's - ain't going to touch that (i'm a daddy's girl), and most individuals that high up in companies deserve the salaries they get.

i think mostly each case should be judged individually based on the persons merits not title or job position. i have many friends that make pennies, but view their value differently. there are many types of currency you can use to judge a persons value, not all of it is the size of paycheck.


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Post by mquast53000 » Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:35 pm

I know that there are examples of certain jobs that are paid too much and other that are paid to little, but really in a free market you are going to get paid pretty darn close to what you are worth in most cases. Maybe being a teacher isn’t easy, but there must be a surplus if a teacher can be hired for so little. Most high paying position exists because there are relatively few people that can do them. There are more people out there that can teach algebra then there are people who can throw a football 70 yards. Sure the entertainment industry is out of control. Yes professional athletes get paid a lot of money, but if the owners are willing to shell out the money and the fans are willing to buy the tickets so be it. In my career I will follow the money, just like a professional athlete will. I sure would not turn down an extra 2 million bucks if my boss offered it to me. I also want to point out that actors/actresses, singers and other entertainers make a lot of money too. Tom Cruise got 40 millions for War of the Worlds! Next time you are watching Friends (each got a million an episode towards the end of the series) or a pro football game you are at fault for all the “injustices” in this free market.


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Post by El_Gato » Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:48 pm

Regarding professional athletes and their wages:

As salaries rise exponentially, so does the price of admission to games, food/beverages, parking, and merchandise. As long as fans continue to attend games despite these high prices and continue to pay $150 for an Allen Iverson or Michael Vick jersey, the owners and leagues will CONTINUE to pay the players ever-increasing sums of money.

No one can argue that based on what they contribute to society, a pro athlete SHOULDN'T make more money than a teacher, a business owner, or a CEO. Unfortunately, however, as is the case for MOST goods & services in America today, the financial model is based on what the "customer" is willing & able to pay. Until fans SIGNIFICANTLY cut back the amounts they spend on pro sports, you will not see any major changes in those systems.

The good news? Maybe the NHL situation has scared the 3 major sports into understanding that fans WILL, in fact, stop attending in #'s that DO make a difference...


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Post by Bleedinbluengold » Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:34 pm

Here is another difference between CEOs, pro athletes and soldiers:

CEO's: Technically, their job is to make sure the shareholders get a return on their investment, and to ensure the survival of the Corporation. If they don't get the money, the shareholders get the money, many of whom (in numbers, not ownership percentage) are middle class, and the Middle Class IS America. If the Corporation chooses not share all the proceeds, in the form of dividends or other instruments, the Corp. retains the cash to later use to ensure its survival. Thus, not giving the CEO ridiculous sums is better for the Corp and its shareholders.

Athletes: Their job is to entertain and help the team succeed. If they don't get the money, then the owners do - see "CEOs" above. There are few players from which to draw that can compete at that level. If the athlete fails, the team fails, and the franchise fails (see Charolotte Hornets). Owners are a dime a dozen. If the owner fails, the franchise moves (see Charlotte Hornets)...nobody really cares.

Soldiers: Their job is to enforce America's foreign policy as a last resort. Their job is to die for that if asked, but stay alive as best they can. If they die, they don't get anything.

I don't think many athletes would die for their team or franchise, but they certainly sacrifice everything their body can give short of that, which a lot of times means living in constant pain until they do die.

I don't think any CEO would die for their Company. I think a few more would risk limb.

I can't attempt to put a value on a soldier's life, but I do believe that the difference in compensation between soldiers and CEOs is too vast at this time on average.

I'm not trying to change the world, or take money away from anyone. Rather, I support providing any benefit, in whatever form, to our military men and women. Of course, if that means a few less subsides for our entitlement programs and corporations, then so be it.

I think BAC made a good point. The honor of serving accounts for a significant part of the reason why a soldier decides to pursue that profession...at least with respect to the soldiers I personally know.

I think we are on the verge of a significant paradigm shift with respect to military pay. The best way to meet enlistment goals is to offer more money and more perks. Potential professional soldiers are saying that their life is more than what the military currently pays.


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Post by geogfather » Tue Jul 12, 2005 11:22 pm

mquast53000 wrote:I know that there are examples of certain jobs that are paid too much and other that are paid to little, but really in a free market you are going to get paid pretty darn close to what you are worth in most cases. Maybe being a teacher isn’t easy, but there must be a surplus if a teacher can be hired for so little. .
Ok so that statement right there proves to me that you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to teachers. Because I am on vacation, im not going to reply with a long responce other than to say If you think there is a surplus, explain to me why districts across the country cant hire enough teachers. That is ofcourse if you are truely saying the reason for low salaries is a surplus. If this is still going next week when I get back from vacation I will write more.



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Post by SonomaCat » Tue Jul 12, 2005 11:49 pm

geogfather wrote:
mquast53000 wrote:I know that there are examples of certain jobs that are paid too much and other that are paid to little, but really in a free market you are going to get paid pretty darn close to what you are worth in most cases. Maybe being a teacher isn’t easy, but there must be a surplus if a teacher can be hired for so little. .
Ok so that statement right there proves to me that you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to teachers. Because I am on vacation, im not going to reply with a long responce other than to say If you think there is a surplus, explain to me why districts across the country cant hire enough teachers. That is ofcourse if you are truely saying the reason for low salaries is a surplus. If this is still going next week when I get back from vacation I will write more.
I'm not an expert on the numbers by any means, but I assume there is no shortage of elementary teachers, or probably History/Social Studies teachers who want to be coaches (I just knew a lot of those growing up, so I'm guessing it is a popular route, but I might be wrong), but I do know that many schools are having a hard time finding qualified math and science teachers. I assume part of this is due to the fact that schools aren't allowed to pay science and math teachers more than a second grade teacher, even though their degrees require a lot more training and knowledge. As a result, it's hard to convince someone going into a science or math field to become a teacher (when they have many better paying options in other industries without too much additional education), thus the shortage.

So in that example, the real problem would be the union rules that require that schools pay on a set pay scale as opposed to offering more cash to the specific kinds of teachers for which there is a shortage. The free market system isn't being allowed to work it's invisible hand magic.



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Post by Grizlaw » Wed Jul 13, 2005 8:01 am

Bleedinbluengold wrote:I would say that the CEO's of most (not ALL) Fortune 500 companies were raised with a silver spoon, were GIVEN an education, and GIVEN their position in life - without risking much, if anything. Some CEO's earn their money, I agree...but I would say that you or I could do those jobs equally well.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you probably have not met or worked closely with very many CEOs of Fortune 500 companies -- am I right?

Let me throw in my own .02 worth, which is based on my (admittedly somewhat limited) experience. What you're saying about corporate executives being "given" their position in life is, I believe, much more often the case in smaller, closely-held businesses than in publicly-held corporations. Why? Because officers in publicly-held corporations are hired by the board of directors, which is elected by the shareholders and which can be sued by the shareholders if it negligently hires an underqualified CEO who runs the company into the ground. That's not the case in a closely-held business where the shareholders, directors and officers are often the same people. Especially in the post-Enron era, a corporate board of a public company is not going to hire an unqualified CEO (or overpay him) simply because of who he is or where he came from.

I've worked with executives of publicly-held companies (not CEOs generally; I deal more with CFOs and other finance-types at the VP level and below). Some of them may have been born with money and been given certain advantages in life, and some were not -- but all of the execs that I have dealt with have been very bright individuals who, IMO, deserve the positions they have attained. It's a lot easier to proclaim, from behind your computer monitor, that any of us could run a public corporation than it is to actually do so.



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Post by Bleedinbluengold » Wed Jul 13, 2005 1:30 pm

Grizlaw wrote:[...a corporate board of a public company is not going to hire an unqualified CEO (or overpay him) simply because of who he is or where he came from.
PUHLEEZE! I might have been born at night, but it wasn't last night. I'm not so naive as to invest in a company, and put total trust and faith in a Board of Directors who are less approachable than the President.

If the relationship between CEOs and Boards of Directors of publically traded companies isn't the epitomy of the good-'ol-boys-club-revolving-door, then I don't know what is.

Business is more about relationships and getting people (investors and employees) to buy into your vision and your buisness plan. There is no other way to explain stock market bubbles. There is no other way to explain Intel versus AMD.

As I said, CEOs make what they make and will forever more. I'm not here to take money out of their pockets, nor am I here to change the world. It's capitalism, and its the devil I deal with, and I'm happy to dance with that devil, believe me...wouldn't change anything about it.

HOW-EV-AH,

Risking your life every day for 200,000,000 people, most of whom you do not know, is probably worth more than $30,000 and a free education.

Wouldn't you agree?
Last edited by Bleedinbluengold on Wed Jul 13, 2005 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Post by Grizlaw » Wed Jul 13, 2005 1:49 pm

Bleedinbluengold wrote:
Grizlaw wrote:[...a corporate board of a public company is not going to hire an unqualified CEO (or overpay him) simply because of who he is or where he came from.
PUHLEEZE! I might have been born at night, but it wasn't last night. I'm not so naive as to invest in a company, and put total trust and faith in a Board of Directors who are less approachable than the President.
I love how you cited one small part of my post out of context and then attacked it. You even went so far as to snip the first few words of the sentence you quoted, apparently in an effort to make what I said a little easier to attack. To borrow your phrasing: I may have learned a lot of my debating skills in law school (and done most of my studying at night), but it wasn't last night.

Which of the following statements do you disagree with:

1. CEOs are hired by boards of directors.
2. Boards of directors can be sued by shareholders if they negligently hire an unqualified CEO to the detriment of the corporation.
3. Ergo, a board that hires an unqualified "good ol' boy" CEO does so at its own peril.

None of these statements is particularly complicated, nor is the logic of the argument. If you think any of this is incorrect, then please correct me...but DO NOT take one statement (or half statement) of mine out of context in a lame attempt to make me look stupid; I'll call you out every time for that.
Bleedinbluengold wrote:
Risking your life every day for 200,000,000 people, most of whom you do not know, is probably worth more than $30,000 and a free education.

Wouldn't you agree?

I do agree with that; I have never said otherwise. My only point pertained to your assertion that anyone here could run a public company; that is simply not the case.



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Post by Bleedinbluengold » Wed Jul 13, 2005 2:33 pm

That part of your post, to which I took exception is exactly what I quoted (which is why a spliced your post - don't get all upset - everyone here can read your whole post - they didn't need me to repost it, and I didn't disagree with a lot of it - reeelax).

I thought I pretty much stated why I think you make a "somewhat" naive comment.

Let me explain further though:

Bad CEOs are constantly hired. Many times, that is why a company fails. I'll grant you that we could debate the difference between "bad" and "unqualified" until the cows come home.

As I said in my post: Boards and CEOs are revolving doors. CEO's (and other senior managers) typically serve on the boards of other publically traded companies. If you think it's not a good-ol-boys club, then you need to open your eyes. I'm just calling it what it is...that's the way business is done. It's laughable to believe otherwise.

I'll take back my highly exagerated statement that "anyone here could run a public company." It would be more accurate to state that running a public company takes ambition, good communication, leadership, the ability to read financial statements, the ability to multi-task, and a kick-a$$ administrative assistant. It won't hurt if you know 1 or more directors on the board either. :wink:


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Post by Grizlaw » Wed Jul 13, 2005 6:16 pm

Bleedinbluengold wrote:That part of your post, to which I took exception is exactly what I quoted (which is why a spliced your post - don't get all upset - everyone here can read your whole post - they didn't need me to repost it, and I didn't disagree with a lot of it - reeelax).

***

Bad CEOs are constantly hired. Many times, that is why a company fails. I'll grant you that we could debate the difference between "bad" and "unqualified" until the cows come home.
The reason I got frustrated with you for snipping my post where you did is that the parts you snipped *explained* the part you disagreed with. Yes, I realize that bad CEOs do sometimes get hired, and sometimes they make mistakes...but the people who make those decisions (the CEOs themselves and the boards that hire them) are accountable to the shareholders, and in this day and age (i.e. post-Enron), boards of directors are a lot less likely to hire a "good ol' boy" if he can't do the job, knowing that doing so might land them on the wrong side of a billion dollar lawsuit.



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Post by Bleedinbluengold » Wed Jul 13, 2005 9:57 pm

OK - no worries on my part. I didn't get that from your original post.

Even after your explaination, I would still disagree, albeit, less strongly. I don't think Enron changed a thing..."they" just got caught. Ever since Adam Smith, there have been Enrons.

You give Boards of Directors more credit than I do. You also give more power to a common shareholder than I do. That's probably a difference we will not compromise upon...and that's fine.


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Post by briannell » Mon Jul 18, 2005 8:57 am

love to screw up and still get paid like this.

Good News: You're Fired
A rich payday for departed Morgan Stanley executives.
Don't Go Away Mad...
Many execs walk away from troubles with big payouts, pensions and consulting gigs.


PHILIP PURCELL
$113 million
Morgan Stanley, June 2005
Poor performance and an exodus of talent eroded his support on the board.





STEPHEN CRAWFORD
$32 million
Morgan Stanley, July 2005
Purcell ally was co-president for three months (paid for two years).





HARRY STONECIPHER
$600,000/year
Boeing, March 2005
Developed company code of conduct, then had an extramarital office affair.





CARLY FIORINA
$21 million
Hewlett-Packard, February 2005
Master saleswoman couldn't deliver promised results of Compaq merger.





FRANKLIN RAINES
$1.4 million/year
Fannie Mae, December 2004
His pension is more reliable than Fannie's questionable earnings.



SCOTT LIVENGOOD
$46,000/month
Krispy Kreme, January 2005
Did Atkins deflate Krispy? No, accounting did. Nice advisory gig.


By Charles Gasparino
Newsweek
July 25 issue - John Mack's return to Morgan Stanley was supposed to be a new beginning. He hoped to put an end to the turmoil and defections of top talent under his predecessor, Phil Purcell, and get everyone at the investment bank focused on getting back to work. Mack, who was returning to the place he had worked for 29 years before leaving in 2001 after a dispute with Purcell, gave his staffers a pep talk on his first day, encouraging them to stop looking at Morgan headlines in the papers.

Easier said than done. Morgan Stanley's board has triggered fresh controversy by paying $113 million to Purcell (with $44 million of that in cash) and $32 million to one his chief lieutenants, 41-year-old co-president Steve Crawford, on their way out. (Mack himself added to the firestorm by negotiating a pay package that guaranteed him $25 million a year, but he quickly gave that up in exchange for compensation tied more closely to his performance.) Purcell and Crawford join the growing ranks of executives—including Franklin Raines of Fannie Mae and Carly Fiorina of HP—who've scored big paydays even as they've been shown the door.

Many big Morgan shareholders—who've watched the firm's stock fall from more than $100 a share to about $54 in recent years—are outraged, particularly about the pay for Crawford, who was never a star banker or big moneymaker at the firm. "Someone could argue that Purcell's $44 million was necessary to get him to leave," says Rich Ferlauto of the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees, which represents the beneficiaries of public pension funds that hold Morgan Stanley stock. "But Crawford's money was just so out of bounds.'' Morgan has been flooded with complaints from large investors about the pay deals, NEWSWEEK has learned, and inside the firm Mack and his new management team are bracing for possible legal action. That may include shareholder lawsuits demanding the money be returned. Eight former Morgan execs who agitated as a group for Purcell's ouster are also weighing a possible proxy fight to remove the Morgan board, NEWSWEEK has learned. A Morgan spokesman declined to comment about the matter.

Mack was traveling last week to Morgan's offices in Europe as part of his bid to end the criticism of the pay deals and get his employees refocused. And late last week, Miles Marsh, a director at Morgan, contacted Ferlauto to set up a meeting—something Ferlauto said would have been unlikely in years past. But it's still not clear what these pay deals will cost Morgan beyond the big checks it's already written to Purcell and Crawford.

—With Nicole L. Joseph

© 2005 Newsweek, Inc.
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