Ugly Americans - New Orleans

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Grizlaw
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Post by Grizlaw » Wed Sep 07, 2005 8:58 pm

grizbeer wrote:Sorry GL, I thought you were calling me names - I over reacted, and read more into than what you were saying - and I am pretty much in total agreement with the point you are making. :oops:
No worries; it happens. That's what sucks about message boards.

The misunderstanding was probably mostly my fault anyway. I use sarcasm to make my points a lot, and I try to direct it at ideas rather than people. When I wrote my post yesterday, though, I was in a hurry, and I just phrased it badly. If I had thought about what I was saying, I would've made it more clear that I was attacking the idea, and not anybody here (and I was also trying to illustrate the motivation that, er, certain public figures might have for drawing attention to Landrieu's words instead of her point).


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Post by SonomaCat » Wed Sep 07, 2005 9:36 pm

I can't find too much fault in this call to NOT rebuild the low-lying areas of New Orleans:

http://www.slate.com/id/2125810/



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Post by grizzh8r » Thu Sep 08, 2005 12:51 am

Story that relates to the post from a blog.

http://www.heraldsun.com/durham/4-643298.html

Found on the Net... http://forums.dailyrotten.com/722/00018668/ (PROBABLY NOT WORK-SAFE!)
From: studgerbil [Stud]
Date: 6-Sep-2005 06:35

Great story of derring-do.

But, hidden within is a key quote:

"From there, they traveled through the Mississippi cities of Biloxi and Gulfport.

They say they elected to keep going because it seemed like Mississippi authorities had things well in hand."


Folks - the coast of Mississippi was hit MUCH harder than southeast Louisiana.

The town of Gulfport was wiped out and the city of Biloxi was half-ruined, and "authorities had things well in hand."

You can blame everyone you want for the NOLA fiasco, but you'd better start with the local authorities there. And the local citizens who were shooting at their would-be rescuers. And the Mayor. And the Governor.

THEN, and ONLY then, can you point you pudgy finger at Bush.

BTW - the same thing happened to NOLA 40 years ago, with Hurricane Betsy. They had FORTY ****** YEARS to build levees capable of withstanding a Vat 5 hurricane. FORTY YEARS. But you're right, that's Bush's fault too. Couldn't agree more with ya.
I think he sums it up quite well.


Eric Curry STILL makes me sad.
94VegasCat wrote:Are you for real? That is just a plain ol dumb paragraph! You just nailed every note in the Full Reetard sing-a-long choir!!!
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Post by iaafan » Thu Sep 08, 2005 9:27 am

I think this sums it up quite well:

In an era of tax cuts for the wealthy, Bush consistently slashed the Army Corps of Engineers’ funding requests to improve the levees holding back Lake Pontchartrain. This year, he asked for $3.9 million, $23 million less than the Corps requested. In the end, Bush reluctantly agreed to $5.7 million, delaying seven contracts, including one to enlarge the New Orleans levees. Former Republican congressman Michael Parker was forced out as the head of the Corps by Bush in 2002 when he dared to protest the lack of proper funding.

Similarly, the Southeast Louisiana Urban Flood Control Project, which is supposed to improve drainage and pumping systems in the New Orleans area, recently asked for $62.5 million; the White House proposed $10.5 million. Former Louisiana Senator John Breaux, a pro-Bush Democrat, said, “All of us said, ‘Look, build it or you’re going to have all of Jefferson Parish under water.’ And they didn’t, and now all of Jefferson Parish is under water.”



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Post by iaafan » Thu Sep 08, 2005 9:40 am

In the ABC interview, he (Bush) said, “I don’t think anyone anticipated the breach of the levees.” Even the most cursory review shows that there have been comprehensive and chilling warnings of a potential calamity on the Gulf Coast for years. The most telling, but hardly the only, example was a five-part series in 2002 by John McQuaid and Mark Schleifstein in the New Orleans Times-Picayune, a newspaper that heroically kept publishing on the Internet last week. After evaluating the city’s structural deficiencies, the Times-Picayune reporters concluded that a catastrophe was “a matter of when, not if.” The same paper said last year, “For the first time in 37 years, federal budget cuts have all but stopped major work on the New Orleans area’s east bank hurricane levees, a complex network of concrete walls, metal gates and giant earthen berms that won’t be finished for at least another decade.” A Category 4 or 5 hurricane would be a catastrophe “Soon the geographical ‘bowl’ of the Crescent City would fill up with the waters of the lake, leaving those unable to evacuate with little option but to cluster on rooftops—terrain they would have to share with hungry rats, fire ants, nutria, snakes, and perhaps alligators. The water itself would become a festering stew of sewage, gasoline, refinery chemicals, and debris.” And that describes much of the Gulf Coast today.



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Post by Bleedinbluengold » Thu Sep 08, 2005 1:13 pm

iaafan wrote:Allow me to be my usual vague self for a second. Bush is asking for $52 billion for N.O. cleanup. N.O. was asking for $110 million to fix its levees. So lets just say that was gross underestimate on NO's part and round it up to $1 billion. A $51 billion dollar mistake. But there probably would've been a couple billion in damage anyway, so it's only a $49 billion mistake.

That's quite a mistake someone made when he/she/it didn't grant the request. That trip on the $235 million bridge to Nowhere, Alaska and the downtown Bozeman parking garage ($4 million) are looking lame now.
The key point is that it was $110 MM for maintenance...not to redesign and improve them to the point that they would withstand a Katrina-level storm. The preliminary failure analysis showed that the waters ran over the top of the walls, which caused torque at the bottom of the wall (under water), and the wall basically kicked out at the bottom. I think it was Discovery Channel that I saw that on.


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Post by iaafan » Thu Sep 08, 2005 2:14 pm

The couldn't even get money for general upkeep?

Maintenance. Relative to the US gov't's budget that's like a multi-millionaire not paying $20 to change the oil in his car.



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Post by iaafan » Thu Sep 08, 2005 3:06 pm

Boy-o-boy is the NRA gonna be upset about this or what?

M. Spencer Green/Associated Press
Vice President Cheney, with Mayor Brent Warr, speaking today in Gulfport, Miss.
No civilians in New Orleans will be allowed to carry pistols, shotguns, or other firearms of any kind, said P. Edwin Compass, the superintendent of police. "Only law enforcement are allowed to have weapons," he said.



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Post by iaafan » Thu Sep 08, 2005 3:11 pm

I stand corrected. It wasn't $52 billion, it's $61.6 billion. As usual the DOD gets some coin out of the deal. Since my thought that it would only cost $110 million to fix the levees has been proven wrong by Bleedin... I'll have to find the correct amount. I'm sure the White House will announce that it would've cost $61.7 billion to fix the levees to hold back a big 'cane.

The AP reports: "In Washington, the House approved $51.8 billion for relief efforts, the second disbursement since the storm devastated the Gulf Coast on Aug. 29. The Senate is expected to approve the funding bill this evening. The money would include $50 billion for FEMA, $1.4 billion for the Department of Defense and an additional $400 million for the Army Corps of Engineers. The request follows a $10.5 billion package that President Bush signed on Friday and is intended to address the immediate needs of survivors. "



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Post by iaafan » Thu Sep 08, 2005 3:20 pm

New Orleans Begins Confiscating Firearms as Water Recedes


By ALEX BERENSON
and TIMOTHY WILLIAMS
Published: September 8, 2005
NEW ORLEANS, Sept. 8 - Waters were receding across this flood-beaten city today as police officers began confiscating weapons, including legally registered weapons, from civilians in preparation for a mass forced evacuation of the residents still living here.
No civilians in New Orleans will be allowed to carry pistols, shotguns, or other firearms of any kind, said P. Edwin Compass, the superintendent of police. "Only law enforcement are allowed to have weapons," he said.
But that order apparently does not apply to the hundreds of security guards whom businesses and some wealthy individuals have hired to protect their property. The guards, who are civilians working for private security firms like Blackwater, are openly carrying M-16's and other assault rifles. Mr. Compass said he was aware of the private guards, but that the police had no plans to make them give up their weapons.
Nearly two weeks after the floods began, New Orleans has turned into an armed camp, patrolled by thousands of local, state, and federal law enforcement officers, as well as National Guard troops and active-duty soldiers. While armed looters roamed unchecked last week, the city is now calm. No arrests were made on Wednesday night or this morning, and police received only 10 calls for service, a police spokesman said.
The city's slow recovery is continuing on other fronts as well, local officials said at a press conference late this morning. Pumping stations are now operating across much of the city, and many taps and fire hydrants have water pressure. Also, tests have shown no evidence of cholera or other dangerous diseases in flooded areas, though health officials have said the waters contain levels of E. coli bacteria and lead 10 times higher than what is considered safe.
Efforts to recover corpses have also started, although only a handful of bodies have been recovered so far.
In Washington, the House approved $51.8 billion for relief efforts, the second disbursement since the storm devastated the Gulf Coast on Aug. 29. The Senate is expected to approve the funding bill this evening. The money would include $50 billion for FEMA, $1.4 billion for the Department of Defense and an additional $400 million for the Army Corps of Engineers. The request follows a $10.5 billion package that President Bush signed on Friday and is intended to address the immediate needs of survivors.
With pumps running and the weather here remaining hot and dry, water has visibly receded across much of New Orleans. Formerly flooded streets are now passable, although covered with leaves, tree branches and mud.
Still, many neighborhoods in the northern half of New Orleans remain under 10 feet of water, and Mr. Compass said today that the city's plans for a forced evacuation remain in effect because of the danger of disease and fires.
Mr. Compass said he could not disclose when New Orleans residents might be forced to leave en masse, but other police officers and law enforcement officials said the city planned to start as early as tonight.
The city's Police Department and federal law enforcement officers from agencies like the United States Marshals Service will lead the evacuation, Mr. Compass said. Officers will search houses in both dry and flooded neighborhoods, and no one will be allowed to stay, he said.
Many of the residents still in the city said they did not understand why the city remained intent on forcing them out.
"I know the risks," said Renee de Pontchieux, as she sat on a stool outside Kajun's Pub in the working-class Bywater neighborhood east of downtown. "We used to think we lived in America - now we're not so sure. Why should we allow this government to chase us out and allow people from outside to rebuild our homes? We want to rebuild our homes."
But Ms. De Pontchieux said she was resigned to being evacuated if the police insisted. "It would be foolish" to fight, she said.
This afternoon, President Bush announced a series of measures intended to make it easier for evacuees to receive state and federal aid, like Medicaid and food stamps, to make the aid as "simple as possible to collect."
"There will be many difficult days ahead, especially as we recover those who did not survive the storm," he said. The president declared Friday a National Day of Prayer and Remembrance.
Vice President Dick Cheney surveyed damaged neighborhoods in the Gulf Coast region this morning, and pledged that the federal government would help rebuild the devastated area.
Mr. Cheney visited Gulfport, Miss., and New Orleans, where flood waters are growing increasingly fetid and thousands of people are still insisting on staying, despite the evacuation order.
Berenson reported from New Orleans for this article, and Timothy Williams from New York. Reporting was contributed by Sewell Chan from Baton Rouge, La; Matthew L. Wald from Vicksburg, Miss., and Christine Hauser from New York
"The president asked me to come down to take a look at things, and to begin to focus on the longer term, in terms of making certain obviously that we're getting the search and rescue missions done and all those other immediate things," Mr. Cheney said after touring a neighborhood in Gulfport. "The progress we're making is significant."
Betty Bates carried some of her belongings, including a photograph of her daughter and grandson, to a pickup that her husband, Clarence Burton, was loading. The couple were told on Wednesday to evacuate their home in New Orleans.
A shoe without a foot. A doll without a child. The waters that had engulfed this stretch of St. Claude Avenue in New Orleans were finally gone on Wednesday, and the painful secrets they had covered up were coming to light.
Mr. Cheney's visit follows a visit earlier this week by President Bush, his second since the storm hit, following much criticism last week that the administration and federal agencies had been slow in responding to the disaster.
An estimated 5,000 to 10,000 people remained inside New Orleans more than a week after Hurricane Katrina hit, many in neighborhoods that are on high ground near the Mississippi River.
But the number of dead still remained a looming and disturbing question.
In the first indication of how many deaths Louisiana alone might expect, Robert Johannessen, a spokesman for the State Department of Health and Hospitals, said on Wednesday that the Federal Emergency Management Agency had ordered 25,000 body bags. The official death toll remained at under 100.
In Washington, the House and Senate announced a joint investigation into the government's response to the crisis. "Americans deserve answers," said a statement by the two top-ranking Republicans, Speaker J. Dennis Hastert and Senator Bill Frist, the majority leader. "We must do all we can to learn from this tragedy, improve the system and protect all of our citizens."
The government continued its efforts to help evacuees. At the Astrodome in Houston, where an estimated 15,000 New Orleans evacuees found shelter over the weekend, the number had dwindled to only about 3,000 on Wednesday as people were rapidly placed in apartments, volunteers' homes and hotels that had been promised reimbursement by FEMA.
Michael D. Brown, the FEMA director, has said his agency would begin issuing debit cards, worth at least $2,000 each, to allow hurricane victims to buy supplies for immediate needs. More than 319,000 people have already applied for federal disaster relief.
"The concept is to get them some cash in hand," Mr. Brown said, "which allows them, empowers them, to make their own decisions about what they need to have to restart their lives."
Officials emphasized that as testing of the flood waters continued, substances in addition to E. coli bacteria and lead were likely to be found at harmful levels, especially from water taken near industrial sites.
"Human contact with the floodwater should be avoided as much as possible," the environmental agency's administrator, Stephen L. Johnson, said.
A spokesman for the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said state and local officials had reported three deaths in Mississippi and one in Texas from exposure to Vibrio vulnificus, a choleralike bacterium found in salt water, which poses special risks for people with chronic liver problems.
At a press conference this morning, officials in New Orleans cautioned people to decontaminate themselves as best as possible when entering homes after wading through the flood water.
With the overall death toll uncertain, Mr. Brown, the FEMA director, said in Baton Rouge that the formal house-to-house search for bodies had begun at midmorning. He said the temporary mortuary set up in St. Gabriel, La., was prepared to receive 500 to 1,000 bodies a day, with refrigeration trucks on site to hold the corpses.
"They will be processed as rapidly as possible," Mr. Brown said.
As it worked to remove the water inundating the city, the Corps of Engineers said that one additional pumping station, No. 6, at the head of the 17th Street Canal, had started up, and that about 10 percent of the city's total pumping capacity was in operation. But the corps added that it was dealing with a new problem: how to prevent corpses from being sucked to the grates at the pump inlets.
"We're expending every effort to try to ensure that we protect the integrity of remains as we get this water out of the city," said John S. Rickey, chief of public affairs for the corps. "We're taking this very personally. This is a very deep emotional aspect of our work down there."
Among the authorities, though, some confusion lingered about how a widespread evacuation by force would work, and how much support it would get at the federal and state level. Mayor Nagin told the police and the military on Tuesday to remove all residents for their own safety, and on Wednesday, Mr. Compass said state laws gave the mayor the authority to declare martial law and order the evacuations.
"There's a martial law declaration in place that gives us legal authority for mandatory evacuations," Mr. Compass said. "We'll use the minimum amount of force necessary."
But because the New Orleans Police Department has only about 1,000 working officers, the city is largely in the hands of National Guard troops and active-duty soldiers.
State officials said Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco could tell the Guard to carry out the forced removals, but they stopped short of a commitment to do so. In Washington, Lt. Gen. Joseph R. Inge, deputy commander of the United States Northern Command, said regular troops "would not be used" in any forced evacuation.
The state disaster law does not supersede either the state or federal Constitutions, said Kenneth M. Murchison, a law professor at Louisiana State University. But even so, Mr. Nagin's decision could be a smart strategy that does not violate fundamental rights, Professor Murchison said.
When police officers came to Billie Moore's 3,000 square foot Victorian to warn her of the health risks of remaining in the city, she pushed her identification tag from the hospital where she works as a nurse through slats in the door.
"I guess you know the health risks then," the officer said as he walked away.
Ms. Moore and her husband, Richard Robinson, who do not drive and use bicycles for the 5-mile ride to their jobs at the still-functioning Ochsner Hospital in suburban Jefferson Parish, have no plans to leave. Their circa-1895 home, on the city's southwest flank, suffered virtually no damage in the hurricane or its aftermath. They have been lighting an old gas stove with a match to cook pasta and rice, dumping cans of peas on top for flavor.
"We try to be normal and sit down and eat," Ms. Moore, 52, explained as showed off the expansive, well-kept home where they have lived for 10 years. "I think that's how we'll stay healthy is if I keep the house clean."
Ms. Moore said she had not worked since the hurricane because there are few babies left at the hospital, but that she remains on standby; her husband has been on duty the past five days.
"I don't want to go, I don't want to lose my job," she said. "Who's going to take care of the patients if all the nurses go away?"



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Post by Bleedinbluengold » Thu Sep 08, 2005 4:31 pm

So, is your argument that if the Gubmint would have spent $110 MM prior to Katrina, we would not have to spend $60 B now?

Seriously...

Also, are you trying to make the point that $60 B is wasteful?

Again, I don't think that's your point, but I'm not clear. I'm sure that there will be plenty of waste in the $60 B expenditure - G Love will just print more $$$ if we need it.


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Post by SonomaCat » Thu Sep 08, 2005 5:04 pm




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Post by iaafan » Thu Sep 08, 2005 6:05 pm

No, I conceded that since the $110 million was for maintenance, as you said, I was incorrect. I added that I wonder just what the bill would have been for fixing the levees. I'm guessing that whatever that number is, it is substantially less than $60-some million. I agree there will be plenty of waste and that a big chunk of the dough will go to Halliburton, imagine that.

Bush did a good job of acknowledging that the federal gov't was slow to respond at the beginning of this. It was one of the few times I've heard him being accountable for anything. It was a sign of hope.



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Post by iaafan » Fri Sep 09, 2005 10:15 am

He may be "one of these damn liberals," but like him or not Krugman always makes a good point. He seems to be giving the administration the benifit of the doubt for part of this.

Point Those Fingers
By PAUL KRUGMAN
Published: September 9, 2005
To understand the history of the Bush administration's response to disaster, just follow the catchphrases.

First, look at 2001 Congressional testimony by Joseph Allbaugh, President Bush's first pick to head the Federal Emergency Management Agency. FEMA, he said, would emphasize "Responsibility and Accountability" (capital letters and boldface in the original statement). He repeated the phrase several times.

What Mr. Allbaugh seems to have meant was that state and local government officials shouldn't count on FEMA to bail them out if they didn't prepare adequately for disasters. They should accept responsibility for protecting their constituents, and be held accountable if they don't.

But those were rules for the little people. Now that the Bush administration has botched its own response to disaster, we're not supposed to play the "blame game." Scott McClellan used that phrase 15 times over the course of just two White House press briefings.

It might make sense to hold off on the criticism if this were the first big disaster on Mr. Bush's watch, or if the chain of mistakes in handling Hurricane Katrina were out of character. But even with the most generous possible assessment, this is the administration's second big policy disaster, after Iraq. And the chain of mistakes was perfectly in character - there are striking parallels between the errors the administration made in Iraq and the errors it made last week.

In Iraq, the administration displayed a combination of paralysis and denial after the fall of Baghdad, as uncontrolled looting destroyed much of Iraq's infrastructure.

The same deer-in-the-headlights immobility prevailed as Katrina approached and struck the Gulf Coast. The storm gave plenty of warning. By the afternoon of Monday, Aug. 29, the flooding of New Orleans was well under way - city officials publicly confirmed a breach in the 17th Street Canal at 2 p.m. Yet on Tuesday federal officials were still playing down the problem, and large-scale federal aid didn't arrive until last Friday.

In Iraq the Coalition Provisional Authority, which ran the country during the crucial first year after Saddam's fall - the period when an effective government might have forestalled the nascent insurgency - was staffed on the basis of ideological correctness and personal connections rather than qualifications. At one point Ari Fleischer's brother was in charge of private-sector development.

The administration followed the same principles in staffing FEMA. The agency had become a highly professional organization during the Clinton years, but under Mr. Bush it reverted to its former status as a "turkey farm," a source of patronage jobs.

As Bloomberg News puts it, the agency's "upper ranks are mostly staffed with people who share two traits: loyalty to President George W. Bush and little or no background in emergency management." By now everyone knows FEMA's current head went from overseeing horse shows to overseeing the nation's response to disaster, with no obvious qualifications other than the fact that he was Mr. Allbaugh's college roommate.

All that's missing from the Katrina story is an expensive reconstruction effort, with lucrative deals for politically connected companies, that fails to deliver essential services. But give it time - they're working on that, too.

Why did the administration make the same mistakes twice? Because it paid no political price the first time.

Can the administration escape accountability again? Some of the tactics it has used to obscure its failure in Iraq won't be available this time. The reality of the catastrophe was right there on our TV's, although FEMA is now trying to prevent the media from showing pictures of the dead. And people who ask hard questions can't be accused of undermining the troops.

But the other factors that allowed the administration to evade responsibility for the mess in Iraq are still in place. The media will be tempted to revert to he-said-she-said stories rather than damning factual accounts. The effort to shift blame to state and local officials is under way. Smear campaigns against critics will start soon, if they haven't already. And raw political power will be used to block any independent investigation.

Will this be enough to let the administration get away with another failure? Let's hope not: if the administration isn't held accountable for what just happened, it will keep repeating its mistakes. Michael Brown and Michael Chertoff will receive presidential medals, and the next disaster will be even worse.

E-mail: krugman@nytimes.com



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Post by Bleedinbluengold » Fri Sep 09, 2005 11:58 am

Well, Mike Brown won't be up for a medal - he just got fired.

The Governor won't take heat, because its not proper to criticize someone who's clearly mentally challenged.

There's nobody left to bitch at the Mayor.


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Post by iaafan » Fri Sep 09, 2005 12:27 pm

That's not good news, since it had to happen, but it is progress in other ways. While Chertoff let him go, I'm sure W had some say in it and that's a good step for him. Good job Mr. President. :)



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Post by Hell's Bells » Sun Sep 11, 2005 7:42 pm

http://www.factcheck.org/article344.html

figured id post this before i go back to studying trig anywho a synopsis:

Bush did cut funding from the levy
there has been complaining about the levy for like 20 years


my brain is scrambled right now - read it for yourself :wink:


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