Rushing Offense

2Cats · Post by **2Cats** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 3:17 pm

Here's a topic to wade in on.

Given that NDSU, Cal Poly & MSU all practice against a scout team day-in and day-out, what is it that MSU is doing or not that is having a negative effect on our running game while the other two have an effective (time of posession, etc.) and consistent (wins/losses) ground attack?

mquast53000 · Post by **mquast53000** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 3:27 pm

2Cats wrote:Here's a topic to wade in on.

Given that NDSU, Cal Poly & MSU all practice against a scout team day-in and day-out, what is it that MSU is doing or not that is having a negative effect on our running game while the other two have an effective (time of posession, etc.) and consistent (wins/losses) ground attack?

I for one am not sure what is going on with the run game, but I can assure you it is not the scout team that is keeping us from getting things going.

BobcatLionFan · Post by **BobcatLionFan** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 4:05 pm

Totally agree, the scout team has no effect on having a good running game or not. A scout team are Red Shirt Freshmen and/or 3rd/4th string players.

A running game is blocking (or lack of) and runners abilities at a couple of points.

We can improve our smashmouth blocking. Our blockers are great pass blockers, but not great run blockers. I think we are little undersized at center/RG to go against some of the DTs we are seeing. This makes establishing a consistant running game hard. The tackles are pushing the DEs out and creating a hole, but we're not kicking out the LBs or sealing off the DTs.

On running, there is hitting the hole hard and there is NorthSouth verses East West running. What I've noticed is that holes seem to be there and Bass hits them quickly, but once he is through it, he doesn't keep going straight ahead and get 5 or 6 yards, instead he then goes EastWest and gets pulled down for only a 2 or 3 yards. JD doesn't hit the hole as hard, he actually likes to bounce it outside around the end. So it's all or nothing.

With the approach/talent we have, I would like to see the Walsh (49) approach. Use the pass to setup the run. Do Short passes to hold the LBs and then run off the pass (especially with Draws, which appeared open this past week).

Given all this, it will be interesting to see what happens this weekend. Against Cal Poly we got behind and they were basically pass rushing. Against OSU, we were playing against large talented DL, so that wasn't exactly expected to having huge Rushing numbers. SFA we were OK and NDSU wasn't bad, given we had the ball so little.

ISU has a pass rush, we'll have to see how the coaches take advantage of that (with draws, screens, etc.)

Platinumcat · Post by **Platinumcat** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 4:25 pm

If we are undersized on the line in some areas, I would like to see some counter traps and some power sweeps (like NDSU did with the guard and tackle pulling out and leading the play.
I've always loved these kinds of plays. As an offensive lineman, I loved being able to pull on these plays because it was always an opportunity to unload on the defensive end that was allowed to come through untouched. Believe me, a couple of these kinds of plays and they begin to tip toe through the line instead of busting through. If anything this makes them play the position more honestly.
I thought the power sweep was working really well for NDSU. But, they just went to it too many times and also rush to the strong side about 95% of the time.
Another idea, bring Barnhart in motion and run off tackle to that side. There's your fullback in a one back system.

BobcatLionFan · Post by **BobcatLionFan** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 4:42 pm

What I saw with NDSU was their OL slowed down significantly in the 2nd half. They looked like they got beat up a little (limping at lot), their LT came out and they didn't have a good replacement, and their OL was just out of shape? In either case, their end sweeps became slow motion footage from the first half.

BelgradeBobcat · Post by **BelgradeBobcat** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 4:45 pm

I don't know too much of the in's and outs of the running game, I'd just like to say that the draw play to Bass on the final drive that got us something like 16 yards was an absolutely brilliant call and well executed by the offense.

The quarterback draw that Lulay fumbled on was also brilliant. When everybody spread out, including Bass going way out wide it looked like the NDSU was very confused. Then Lulay took off for the big gain. Too bad the ball got poked away.

2Cats · Post by **2Cats** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 4:46 pm

Come on fella's. That's my point exactly. The one common factor that runs through all three programs game prep (besides the shape of the ball) is that they practice their game plan against a scout team. Yet two of those programs are able to step on the field and run their offense (against the others #1's) and the third is not.

BCLFan, I understand you thinking on North/South running and agree...but is that to say the we will never have a running game w/JD? Because his not initially as quick to the hole as Mike and so can't get there before it closes? Also if we're light up front, coach Mac must be scheming with angle blocks, double teams, trapping, etc., yet there are minimal opening.

Maybe that's it. Is the scheming at fault?

BelgradeBobcat · Post by **BelgradeBobcat** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 4:50 pm

BobcatLionFan wrote:What I saw with NDSU was their OL slowed down significantly in the 2nd half. They looked like they got beat up a little (limping at lot), their LT came out and they didn't have a good replacement, and their OL was just out of shape? In either case, their end sweeps became slow motion footage from the first half.

I think their lack of depth on the lines is just a residual effect of their D-II days. The Fargo TV guy pointed the same thing out about their defensive line. They're just getting to 63 scholarships this year thus their team is still very young. They also had a couple of o-linemen nursing bad ankles coming into the game. But man, did they have some big guys or what? We need to get back to recruiting Minnesota where we got Swaggert and Quast! They grow 'em big out there.

bobcatbob · Post by **bobcatbob** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 5:21 pm

Overall we need to do better on our first down yardage. It seemed like all afternoon we had 2nd and 9 or 10's. That really hurts us.

DriftCat · Post by **DriftCat** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 5:37 pm

I think we need to give Groves a chance. From what I saw against SFA he looked like the real deal. Whats the worst that could happen, 11 carries for 42 yards?

Helcat72 · Post by **Helcat72** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 6:03 pm

If we have smaller quicker linemen that aren't as big as some defensive linemen why not do what Cal Poly does, widen the splits and use more angle blocks. The only drawback to this is it may be difficult to set up pass protection. Like I said before we are athletic on the front line, but Bolton is the only one that is really physical. Figeroa has the attitude but not the size.

Lydell · Post by **Lydell** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:55 pm

BelgradeBobcat wrote:
BobcatLionFan wrote:What I saw with NDSU was their OL slowed down significantly in the 2nd half. They looked like they got beat up a little (limping at lot), their LT came out and they didn't have a good replacement, and their OL was just out of shape? In either case, their end sweeps became slow motion footage from the first half.
I think their lack of depth on the lines is just a residual effect of their D-II days. The Fargo TV guy pointed the same thing out about their defensive line. They're just getting to 63 scholarships this year thus their team is still very young. They also had a couple of o-linemen nursing bad ankles coming into the game. But man, did they have some big guys or what? We need to get back to recruiting Minnesota where we got Swaggert and Quast! They grow 'em big out there.

Fargo is at elevation 900, so I would bet that second half oxygen debt slowed their O-line down somewhat.

BozoneCat · Post by **BozoneCat** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 11:20 pm

Lydell wrote:Fargo is at elevation 900, so I would bet that second half oxygen debt slowed their O-line down somewhat.

Although that is a common misperception, Bozeman isn't quite at a high enough altitude to have a significant physiological effect on conditioning. The actual effect might be minor, but the psychological effect of it may enter into the equation and play a part.

Bottom line, I just don't think NDSU had the depth we did, and that is why they wore down at the end (no disrespect to Bison fans).

Cat Pride · Post by **Cat Pride** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:55 am

I like what Helcat says, if this OL is athletic as Coach Mac says it is, then lets utilize their athleticism. Other than that, its all about execution!

Giving Groves a few opportunities wouldnt be a bad thing either. By a few opportunities, I mean 2 or 3 series in a row in the 2nd or 3rd quarter, not go in for Bass on one play and block as Lulay drops back. I really think Groves has all the tools. He is physical, has the size and speed. He hits the hole as hard as any RB we've seen in Bozeman since Ryno. Evan is our future (as of today) lets see what he can do. Or even Taito, his redshirt is already burned, why not put him out there for a couple offensive series and see what he can do too.

This isnt said with any disrespect towards Bass or JD, but rather to light a fire under their butts a bit if they saw a youngster putting forth a great effort in front of them.

Ponycat · Post by **Ponycat** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 9:10 am

BozoneCat wrote: Bottom line, I just don't think NDSU had the depth we did, and that is why they wore down at the end (no disrespect to Bison fans).

I guess I was watching a different game. It looked to me like the NDSU running game just got stronger as the game went on. Second half the got 4 yards per carry at least.

As for the draw play on the final drive, it was a great call but why call it on back to back plays. The second one went for a loss.

BobcatLionFan · Post by **BobcatLionFan** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 9:29 am

Ponycat wrote:
BozoneCat wrote: Bottom line, I just don't think NDSU had the depth we did, and that is why they wore down at the end (no disrespect to Bison fans).
I guess I was watching a different game. It looked to me like the NDSU running game just got stronger as the game went on. Second half the got 4 yards per carry at least.

As for the draw play on the final drive, it was a great call but why call it on back to back plays. The second one went for a loss.

I looked at the yardage for NDSU in the 2nd half, 19 rushes for 66 yards, slightly under 3.5. One in particular, they got zero inches on fourth and inches.

I thought the last drive was amazing. But I guess there will always be something that you can improve on? We'll have to tell Bailey only call plays that get positive big yardage, then the game will be easier. Amazing he doesn't know that yet??

Actually you have to do plays like that so the D plays simi-honest. The 16 by Bass was great, obviously the -4 by JD could have been better, but that immediately followed by a 7 yard pass to JD and another QB draw by Lulay for a 1st down. You have to think NDSU was playing deep zone and leaving the middle open to draws.

tetoncat · Post by **tetoncat** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 11:14 am

We can not put all the blame on the RB's. We go away from the run to fast. At cal poly we were so far behind we had to throw. Against NDSU it just appeared that we were not happy with the run and the short passes were open all day so we went to that play calling. If you look at the other backs that are getting big yards it is not on 11 or 15 carries it is 25 plus per game. The odds increase that you bust one for 20+ the more carries you get and this increases the overall plus the per carry average.

Also, on Lulay leading the team in rushing, he has taken advantage of some openings to create some big gains. Many were not designed runs, but scrambles. We need him to do this to help us win, but when he does do not compare that to the futility of the running game. It is a seperate part of the offense.

BobcatLionFan · Post by **BobcatLionFan** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 11:34 am

tetoncat wrote:We can not put all the blame on the RB's. We go away from the run to fast. At cal poly we were so far behind we had to throw. Against NDSU it just appeared that we were not happy with the run and the short passes were open all day so we went to that play calling. If you look at the other backs that are getting big yards it is not on 11 or 15 carries it is 25 plus per game. The odds increase that you bust one for 20+ the more carries you get and this increases the overall plus the per carry average.

Also, on Lulay leading the team in rushing, he has taken advantage of some openings to create some big gains. Many were not designed runs, but scrambles. We need him to do this to help us win, but when he does do not compare that to the futility of the running game. It is a seperate part of the offense.

Agree, Running is multiple things. The OL is to get the runner through the DL and take some LBs if possible. The running backs hit the hole and then make the decision as to where to go. I think there should be a little more North/South movement instead of trying to get the big one each time. Get the extra free 2 or 3 yards. Keeps the drive going more. Krammer is talking about getting the TEs into the mix more to add power at the point of attack. The OL hasn't consistently handled run blocking alone and the running backs and Wideouts (in particular Murray) do not really help.

On scambles vs QB Draw, you watch how quickly Lulay goes. If he drops, then goes without looking off multiple receivers, it's a draw. He might look at the SAM or WILL as a key to doing an optional draw. If he looks at 2nd and 3rd receivers and then goes, it's a scramble. There was a blending of both in the game.

94VegasCat · Post by **94VegasCat** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 4:34 pm

MM7CAT wrote:I think we need to give Groves a chance. From what I saw against SFA he looked like the real deal. Whats the worst that could happen, 11 carries for 42 yards?

I totally agree. Yup, Bass is good, but he is now done. Send in the freshmen. Let them carry the ball 7 times each. Then we throw the rest of the day. Spread the field and put Lulays arm to work. If we are getting too much pressure, motion a TE into the backfield before the snap.

Just let the freshmen run wild. I bet they can do it. They have something to prove being freshmen anyways, tend to run hard when you have a chip on your shoulder.

wbtfg · Post by **wbtfg** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 4:46 pm

I would really like to see Taito and especially Groves get a lot of carries, my only worry is that they HOLD ON TO THE BALL!!

Rushing Offense

Rushing Offense

Re: Rushing Offense

My point exactly