MSU (MBB) vs. EWU thread

[John K]

Colter, I know you think the answer is facilities, but as we've discussed before, I don't think that will happen without some success. In other words, this fan base isn't going to fork over the dough without success. You can't have the egg without having the golden goose first. Look no further than the football stadium. We had the longest "quiet phase" in the history of man kind. Then all of a sudden, DMac shows up and we beat the Griz and win the conference and the money flows in because people are excited about the success. Regarding the field house, yes, everybody knows that it needs to be remodeled, but the donors aren't interested in funding something that doesn't appear to "need" their money. I guess what I'm saying is that people would absolutely support the basketball team, but they need to show that they can win the conference and get into the tournament. I'm sure that's why Weber and UM still have the fan support.

And don't forget about the significance of Cruzado's arrival at MSU, towards making the stadium expansion/improvements happen, which probably had an even greater impact. I'm not discounting the importance of our on-field success with regard to fund-raising, but by itself I doubt that would have been enough to get the new end zone built so quickly, without Cruzado lighting a fire under potential donors, both large and small.

She brought a new perspective, but the reason that it got built was that the stands were full already. If we would have had attendance of 6-7000 do you think it would have been built.

I agree with you that since the stadium was selling out consistently, the new end zone probably would have been built fairly soon, with or without Cruzado. But there's no doubt in my mind that she was very much responsible for getting it done sooner rather than later.

[kyle_sample]

[quote="LongTimeCatFan"]I guess what I'm saying is that people would absolutely support the basketball team, but they need to show that they can win the conference and get into the tournament.

Is cheering on a team when it is winning then forgetting about it when it is losing really support?

[Colter_Nuanez]

to you all for a great discussion. If only every thread was like this

[LongTimeCatFan]

I guess what I'm saying is that people would absolutely support the basketball team, but they need to show that they can win the conference and get into the tournament.

Is cheering on a team when it is winning then forgetting about it when it is losing really support?

Speaking for myself, I'm a diehard MSU football fan (have been since i could talk) and the only thing that's going to keep me away from a home game is my wife nailing my nuts to the floor. (Which might happen this year some due to a newborn child in my house.) That said, MSU basketball is secondary. I used to go to a couple games a year, but haven't been to many since Huse took over. I would consider myself a casual MSU basketball fan that is not excited by them in the same way I am about MSU football. So for me to be interested, they need to have some success. I suppose I'm saying there are different levels of fandom and I fall into two different categories for the different sports.

[allcat]

Colter, I know you think the answer is facilities, but as we've discussed before, I don't think that will happen without some success. In other words, this fan base isn't going to fork over the dough without success. You can't have the egg without having the golden goose first. Look no further than the football stadium. We had the longest "quiet phase" in the history of man kind. Then all of a sudden, DMac shows up and we beat the Griz and win the conference and the money flows in because people are excited about the success. Regarding the field house, yes, everybody knows that it needs to be remodeled, but the donors aren't interested in funding something that doesn't appear to "need" their money. I guess what I'm saying is that people would absolutely support the basketball team, but they need to show that they can win the conference and get into the tournament. I'm sure that's why Weber and UM still have the fan support.

And don't forget about the significance of Cruzado's arrival at MSU, towards making the stadium expansion/improvements happen, which probably had an even greater impact. I'm not discounting the importance of our on-field success with regard to fund-raising, but by itself I doubt that would have been enough to get the new end zone built so quickly, without Cruzado lighting a fire under potential donors, both large and small.

She brought a new perspective, but the reason that it got built was that the stands were full already. If we would have had attendance of 6-7000 do you think it would have been built.

I agree with you that since the stadium was selling out consistently, the new end zone probably would have been built fairly soon, with or without Cruzado. But there's no doubt in my mind that she was very much responsible for getting it done sooner rather than later.

I agree, her new perspective did get it done, my real poin was about attendance. If the place is not selling any tickets, nobody will want to spend the money. Tickets will get sold only when they put out a decent product. You don't need to sell out, but you do need to have a crowd.

[John K]

I guess what I'm saying is that people would absolutely support the basketball team, but they need to show that they can win the conference and get into the tournament.

Is cheering on a team when it is winning then forgetting about it when it is losing really support?

Speaking for myself, I'm a diehard MSU football fan (have been since i could talk) and the only thing that's going to keep me away from a home game is my wife nailing my nuts to the floor. (Which might happen this year some due to a newborn child in my house.) That said, MSU basketball is secondary. I used to go to a couple games a year, but haven't been to many since Huse took over. I would consider myself a casual MSU basketball fan that is not excited by them in the same way I am about MSU football. So for me to be interested, they need to have some success. I suppose I'm saying there are different levels of fandom and I fall into two different categories for the different sports.

That describes the level of my basketball and football "fandom" fairly accurately as well. I could get pretty fired up about MSU hoops again, if they could achieve even modest success. In a five year period, from the 1994-95 through the 1998-99 seasons, we won one BSC regular season and tourney title, played in the title game one other time, made the semi-finals of the tourney 4 times, and lost in the first round only once. While we weren't the best program in the BSC, we were probably among the top three programs during that era. That's what I would hope we could eventually become on a long term basis, not just for a five year period, and I don't think that's an unreasonable expectation. Our program doesn't need to become as good as UM or WSU for me to get behind them again. I would be very happy if we could consistently be among the top 3-4 programs in the league, getting at least to the semi-finals of the tourney most years, reaching the title game every few years, and actually winning the tourney and going to NCAA tourney every now and then. But 2008 was the only season that we've won a tourney game in the last 13 years, and we haven't won a BSC title in the last 16 years. I don't think it's unrealistic to expect better than that.

[TomCat88]

Fans do a play a role in how teams do. There's no question about that. You wouldn't hear players saying they were feeding off the crowd's energy all the time if it wasn't true. However, it always works where the team has to do good first, then the fans get into it.

It would be really cool if the fans just all showed up one night coincidentally. No advertising. Not because MSU had just won 4-5 in a row. Just people deciding they were gonna go to a game for something to do all on the same night. Say 6,000 people for a game vs. UNC and MSU wins big, so they go again...and so on.

[BelgradeBobcat]

I would like to point out to our griz grad reporters on here who might be questioning our loyalty (or good sense) that their alma mater had no qualms about firing their head coach even after he had won the Big Sky tourney and knocked off their arch rivals enroute (Don Holst) and after a lot fewer seasons than Huse has had. This is D-1 sports, for better or worse it is results oriented and I think even the most neutral unbiased observer would come to the conclusion that the results regarding MSU men's basketball have been poor over most of the last 6 years.

As far as fan support: Until the league annexed Cedar City, Bozeman was by far the smallest market in the Big Sky Conference. Now fans will travel from all over the state for 6 or so football games per year, that's not going to happen for basketball, so market size does play a part. Yet, despite Bozeman's market size, MSU has led, been second, and more recently third in attendance in men's basketball in the Big Sky. That's not saying a lot, but I think our fan base has been more loyal than most.

Coaches make a difference. Howland won Big Sky titles in Flagstaff, Adras did not. Dancin' Joe Cravins was mediocre at best at Idaho and Weber State (even with the advantage of the purple palace) whereas Rahe has WSU in the league hunt and is putting guys in the NBA. And how about Northern Colorado: Look what Tad Boyle did at UNCU-where they barely have a high school gym compared to what they're doing now (just got blown out by Idaho State).

As far a facilities: I think the Fieldhouse needs to be reconfigured. I think putting the student section a mile away from the court to accomodate more press tables and VIP seating behind the visiting team bench that's never used was a bad decision. The Fieldhouse had a much better atmosphere before it was renovated in the late 1990's (or whenever that was). But even with its disadvantages, it's still a far more impressive arena that most of the Big Sky venues-although the additon of North Dakota and Southern Utah probably knocks us from 3rd to 5th.

I supported the Huse hire. And I still want him to succeed. But geez-it's not happening. I don't think we can be the next Gonzaga, but I don't think it's too much to ask for the team be in top half of the league, not fall apart in the last half of the season every stinkin' year, and not lose in the first round of the Big Sky tournament practically every year. Huse's results absolultely would not be tolerated in Missoula or Ogden so I ask you griz grad reporters...why should his results be tolerated in Bozeman?

[Colter_Nuanez]

I would like to point out to our griz grad reporters on here who might be questioning our loyalty (or good sense) that their alma mater had no qualms about firing their head coach even after he had won the Big Sky tourney and knocked off their arch rivals enroute (Don Holst) and after a lot fewer seasons than Huse has had. This is D-1 sports, for better or worse it is results oriented and I think even the most neutral unbiased observer would come to the conclusion that the results regarding MSU men's basketball have been poor over most of the last 6 years.

As far as fan support: Until the league annexed Cedar City, Bozeman was by far the smallest market in the Big Sky Conference. Now fans will travel from all over the state for 6 or so football games per year, that's not going to happen for basketball, so market size does play a part. Yet, despite Bozeman's market size, MSU has led, been second, and more recently third in attendance in men's basketball in the Big Sky. That's not saying a lot, but I think our fan base has been more loyal than most.

Coaches make a difference. Howland won Big Sky titles in Flagstaff, Adras did not. Dancin' Joe Cravins was mediocre at best at Idaho and Weber State (even with the advantage of the purple palace) whereas Rahe has WSU in the league hunt and is putting guys in the NBA. And how about Northern Colorado: Look what Tad Boyle did at UNCU-where they barely have a high school gym compared to what they're doing now (just got blown out by Idaho State).

As far a facilities: I think the Fieldhouse needs to be reconfigured. I think putting the student section a mile away from the court to accomodate more press tables and VIP seating behind the visiting team bench that's never used was a bad decision. The Fieldhouse had a much better atmosphere before it was renovated in the late 1990's (or whenever that was). But even with its disadvantages, it's still a far more impressive arena that most of the Big Sky venues-although the additon of North Dakota and Southern Utah probably knocks us from 3rd to 5th.

I supported the Huse hire. And I still want him to succeed. But geez-it's not happening. I don't think we can be the next Gonzaga, but I don't think it's too much to ask for the team be in top half of the league, not fall apart in the last half of the season every stinkin' year, and not lose in the first round of the Big Sky tournament practically every year. Huse's results absolultely would not be tolerated in Missoula or Ogden so I ask you griz grad reporters...why should his results be tolerated in Bozeman?

Not sure why what my degree says on it has anything to do with this...Like I said in the earlier post, I'm just playing devil's advocate to stimulate discussion. I don't have a horse in this race.

Hypothetical: MSU puts it together, wins 11-12 BSC games, makes it to the tournament, gets hot, gets to the championship game. Do you all want Huse fired then?

[LongTimeCatFan]

Well Colter, when unicorns, elves, and talking dogs appear, I'll consider that possibility. Until then, that sort of season is considered mythical so I don't think we'll have to worry about that "awkward" situation.

[BelgradeBobcat]

Not sure why what my degree says on it has anything to do with this...Like I said in the earlier post, I'm just playing devil's advocate to stimulate discussion. I don't have a horse in this race.

Hypothetical: MSU puts it together, wins 11-12 BSC games, makes it to the tournament, gets hot, gets to the championship game. Do you all want Huse fired then?

Because both you and Sample (who took a shot at our fan loyalty) come from a place where men's basketball has been very successful in recent years, but in the not too distant past, fired a coach who didn't get great results, but much better than what Huse has done. I think you bring an interesting perspective to the discussion. And yeah-I do bristle at the notion that what can be done in Missoula can't be done in Bozeman-that we have the best possible coach we could hope for and we should just accept the results and quit complaining. Maybe you're right, but I don't have to like it.

I would guess that if Huse wins 11-12 conference game and makes it to the championship game he might be safe...if at least one of those wins is against the griz. What did you think about UM firing Holst? Or were you too young to care back then?

[Colter_Nuanez]

Not sure why what my degree says on it has anything to do with this...Like I said in the earlier post, I'm just playing devil's advocate to stimulate discussion. I don't have a horse in this race.

Hypothetical: MSU puts it together, wins 11-12 BSC games, makes it to the tournament, gets hot, gets to the championship game. Do you all want Huse fired then?

Because both you and Sample (who took a shot at our fan loyalty) come from a place where men's basketball has been very successful in recent years, but in the not too distant past, fired a coach who didn't get great results, but much better than what Huse has done. I think you bring an interesting perspective to the discussion. And yeah-I do bristle at the notion that what can be done in Missoula can't be done in Bozeman-that we have the best possible coach we could hope for and we should just accept the results and quit complaining. Maybe you're right, but I don't have to like it.

I would guess that if Huse wins 11-12 conference game and makes it to the championship game he might be safe...if at least one of those wins is against the griz. What did you think about UM firing Holst? Or were you too young to care back then?

I remember thinking it was perplexing after they won the tournament, then downright frustrating when they hired Pat Kennedy. The Kennedy days actually really reminds me of the Bobcats the past few years. Good athletes, a few stellar scorers, no team chemistry. What saved UM basketball? A change that brought in a dynamic leader in Larry Krystowiak.

Once again, these posts with all the outlying factors are just for discussion. I will save what I think is the solution at Montana State because I truly don't know nor do I want to editorialize my opinions on a team I've covered as a beat for exactly 12 games.

It will be interesting. Last season I went to about half a dozen games just as a fan and I covered them once in Missoula. Like I said, the team I saw this last weekend was totally different than the team I saw last season and this season. But, as history as shown under Brad, the team fades down the stretch. 40-50 after the New Year doesn't lie.

[Colter_Nuanez]

Not sure why what my degree says on it has anything to do with this...Like I said in the earlier post, I'm just playing devil's advocate to stimulate discussion. I don't have a horse in this race.

Hypothetical: MSU puts it together, wins 11-12 BSC games, makes it to the tournament, gets hot, gets to the championship game. Do you all want Huse fired then?

Because both you and Sample (who took a shot at our fan loyalty) come from a place where men's basketball has been very successful in recent years, but in the not too distant past, fired a coach who didn't get great results, but much better than what Huse has done. I think you bring an interesting perspective to the discussion. And yeah-I do bristle at the notion that what can be done in Missoula can't be done in Bozeman-that we have the best possible coach we could hope for and we should just accept the results and quit complaining. Maybe you're right, but I don't have to like it.

I would guess that if Huse wins 11-12 conference game and makes it to the championship game he might be safe...if at least one of those wins is against the griz. What did you think about UM firing Holst? Or were you too young to care back then?

I remember thinking it was perplexing after they won the tournament, then downright frustrating when they hired Pat Kennedy. The Kennedy days actually really reminds me of the Bobcats the past few years. Good athletes, a few stellar scorers, no team chemistry. What saved UM basketball? A change that brought in a dynamic leader in Larry Krystowiak.

Once again, these posts with all the outlying factors are just for discussion. I will save what I think is the solution at Montana State because I truly don't know nor do I want to editorialize my opinions on a team I've covered as a beat for exactly 12 games.

It will be interesting. Last season I went to about half a dozen games just as a fan and I covered them once in Missoula. Like I said, the team I saw this last weekend was totally different than the team I saw last season and this season. But, as history as shown under Brad, the team fades down the stretch. 40-50 after the New Year it pretty hard to argue against.

[John K]

Not sure why what my degree says on it has anything to do with this...Like I said in the earlier post, I'm just playing devil's advocate to stimulate discussion. I don't have a horse in this race.

Hypothetical: MSU puts it together, wins 11-12 BSC games, makes it to the tournament, gets hot, gets to the championship game. Do you all want Huse fired then?

Because both you and Sample (who took a shot at our fan loyalty) come from a place where men's basketball has been very successful in recent years, but in the not too distant past, fired a coach who didn't get great results, but much better than what Huse has done. I think you bring an interesting perspective to the discussion. And yeah-I do bristle at the notion that what can be done in Missoula can't be done in Bozeman-that we have the best possible coach we could hope for and we should just accept the results and quit complaining. Maybe you're right, but I don't have to like it.

I would guess that if Huse wins 11-12 conference game and makes it to the championship game he might be safe...if at least one of those wins is against the griz. What did you think about UM firing Holst? Or were you too young to care back then?

I'll come to Colter's defense a little bit here. As he just reiterated, he was playing devil's advocate to prompt discussion. I don't necessarily believe that his comments represented his true feelings about the issue...or at least I hope not. If so, I completely agree with BB that it would be somewhat insulting to MSU, the city of Bozeman, and Bobcat fans. After all, it wasn't long ago that Griz fans were saying those same sorts of things about the two football programs...that UM would always be the dominant program in the state, that they'd always get all the best in-state recruits, that MSU would never draw large enough crowds to justify an expanded/improved stadium, et al.

[[cat_bracket]]

I find it odd that everyone accepts that if a coach does well enough he can be bought out and take a big raise to go elsewhere in a couple years, but when he doesn't do well enough it's not OK to look for someone else.

Maybe Colter's right. Maybe no one wants to come to MSU and be a head MBB coach. If so, why? We know it isn't the pay, because UM pays the same. Bozeman isn't a run-down, violent town...quite the opposite. MSU doesn't play in a cheesy high school facility.

If Minnesota is able to get to the Final Four and be ranked in the top ten every 10 years or so, despite playing in an old relic of an arena, then we should be able to pull off either a BSC regular season or tourney title once every ten years in the Brick. If not, we should definitely be looking for a new coach. It's been 10 years since we won the league and 17 years since we won the tourney.

[ilovethecats]

did you really just compare the barn to the brick?!

[ilovethecats]

here's my thoughts on the overall state of mens hoops right now...

first, if huse manages to get this team in the big sky championship game he not only deserves to remain the cat coach....but also coach of the year in the big sky. otherwise what was the point in keeping him? he hasn't proven anything yet and he kept his job. if he puts on the coaching clinic it would take to accomplish that feat than he definitely deserves to prove that one year is not a fluke and he has turned the corner.

i've stated many times that i like coach huse. i was very excited when he was hired as i was not happy durham was let go. but the results just haven't been there. if ash had similar results with the football program, and especially the player turnover this board and our community would be up in arms. i know we're a "football" school but i refuse to treat the basketball program like a dumb little brother that can't defend himself. i respect all athletic programs and trat them all the same. why should our expectations be so low for hoops and so high for football? i understand a little more now that our football program is pretty damn good. but this isn't a new thing. even when our football sucked people still demanded better. i just want the same for hoops.

the facilities thing gets beat to death. and i agree. the brick is a terrible venue for a game and it's multiplied by the fact that no one goes to games to watch a team get crushed. but just like football....winning changes that. it's not like our football team was 0-11, built a new endzone and became a national power! it didn't work that way. it took the blood sweat and tears from players back to the beginning of the decade to bring our program where it is now. and as the players performed, and the results were better...the fans began to come. now football games are the "it" thing to do and our gameday expereince is great. and that's how hoops can be too. it's not like this is a new building we just moved into. cats have been playing here for years. and even 10 years ago the environment was pretty good. fans would pile into shroyer to watch a game if the product was worth watching. all those years with guys like erickson, lasosky, james clark, plummer, dissly, conway, brown, holmstadt, etc.....guys weren't complaining about the venue or the distance from the students to the court. because the games were fun, the crowds were good, and the team was winning. or at least competing....

winning is the end all be all to everything. people can complain about coaches, arenas, fan support, etc....none of it matters. you win the fans come. you lose and the fans stay home. say what you want but that is reality. not every fan is a die hard fan. not everyone cares about sports as much as we do. but you still need to reach hese fans to pack the stands! you really think every person at the football games care about football? not a chance. but that doesn't matter. they are there. they are included in attendance. they bring in money. they fill the stadium. and they inspire the players. it's not like when they announce attendance figures they seperate the die hard fans from the causal fans. it doesn't matter. to make money you need butts in seats. and that means winning.

the bottom line is something has to change. anyone who has followed big sky hoops and the cats specifically know that this is one of the lowest points this program has been in in a very long time. it's not like it's a big conspiracy and a bunch of us got together for the sole purpose of bashing huse and the program. but the numbers don't lie. and i refuse to just follow the idea that this is as good as we can get here in bozeman and these are the results we should be happy with. why? because bozeman is just so hard to play in? i don't buy it. i have seen us have better results many times in the past. and i for one believe it can happen again. and if huse is the guy to do it i'm all for it. he hasn't shown me anything to say he is the guy....but in the hypothetical situation where he gets this team to the chipper....i for one will support him and give him the benefit of the doubt that he will turn things around. but by the same tolken, if this season goes how all the others have gone....i don't think it's rude or a stretch to think we need to go in a different direction.

just my $0.38.....

[CatBlitz]

Am I the only one that likes the Brick? I mean, I do agree about the student seating and such but other than that I like it a lot.

[NewEra]

Has anyone heard if there could be a chance that Roderick would play basketball as well? I cant remember the last bobcat athlete to do so, and find it hard to see ash allowing him to do so, but he could seriously really help this basketball team. I would have to think that if He wanted to play two sports he could be someone that could get it done and be successful with both as he is a d1 talent in both arenas.

[ilovethecats]

Am I the only one that likes the Brick? I mean, I do agree about the student seating and such but other than that I like it a lot.

no i actually like it too. i've had great memories in there. and i've been to games where the stands were packed and it was pretty electric. i just think they could do some simple things to actually give our team a home court advantage which we seem to have none.