Growth in the Gallatin-good for the Bobcats?

BelgradeBobcat · Post by **BelgradeBobcat** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 11:33 am

It's funny, whenever I see something about the population growth in the Bozeman area my first thought is-gee I hope these new people become Bobcat fans. I guess that shows where my head is.

There's an interesting letter to the editor in today's Chronicle http://www.bozemanchronicle.com/article ... 0space.txt

Here's a couple of exerpts:

"Imagine a quaint western town. Population: 43,000, elevation: 5,500 feet, average age: 32. Surrounding agricultural interests are a big deal, but the town can stand independently. Tech companies are sprouting. The second largest state university is there; a large national park is an hour's drive. Sound familiar?"

"Today, Fort Collins is home to 126,000 people. The surrounding Larimer County grew from 89,000 to 266,000."

The letter is talking about the growth in Fort Collins in the past 30 years. The similarities with Bozeman are striking.

Last night I happened across the Colorado State Sonny Lubick show. CSU is in the process of expanding Hughes Stadium to about 40,000 seats, and they named the field after Sonny Lubick (congrats coach).

Upon seeing aforementioned letter I couldn't help but wonder-in 30 years will Bobcat Stadium need 30 or 40,000 seats?

We're not even close right now, but last week's homeopening crowd of 12,000+ was a homeopener record. We also set some modest attendance records last season as well I believe. Attendance is definitely tied to winning, but I think the larger crowds can also be somewhat attributed to the growth in the Gallatin Valley.

Anyway, that's my thought for the day.

Post by **SonomaCat** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 11:40 am

That's funny -- I thought the exact same thing when I read that letter.

If done right, a city of Bozeman (and surrounding areas) with 100,000 would actually be very cool. I just hope the planners up there do a good job of making sure that the growth doesn't get too ugly or sprawling. I'd hate for Bozeman to ever resemble parts of Billings (The Heights and Grand Avenue come to mind).

That would truly be a great population base for those Bobcat games! Should I put my order in for Homecoming 2034 tickets now, to beat the rush?

Of course, Bozeman doesn't have a ton of Denver refugees to feed their growth like Fort Collins does, so that could begin to tweak the comparison between the two cities a bit.

raincat · Post by **raincat** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 12:45 pm

If history means anything, I vividly recall my opening days at MSC in the 60's. The sign coming into town said the population was 15,000 and had been like that for about 30 years. Enrollment was slightly less than my highschools. The Exponent had a story projecting something like 7,500 students by 1980. I remember thinking "wow, we'll be as big as Stanford". My cousin had a baby new years eve, 1967, I went down to the old hospital to see her, hung around until 9 PM then went looking for a place to have a beer and do a little celebrating. EVERYTHING was closed down for the night. I actually thought about heading for Butte, but we had a lot of snow. You could perhaps cram 9,000 in old Gatton Field, so as a practical matter it could still hold most of the attendees even today. The community and school are vastly different today than back then. I just hope the locals don't "trick it out" too much. The west if full of trendy little spots resulting in an almost superficial "glam". Bozeman is on a lot of different radar screens and it's going to be interesting to see how it shapes up.

theblackgecko · Post by **theblackgecko** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 1:45 pm

Actually, in my opinion, Bozeman is way too big right now. It's doubled from when I lived here in the early 90s.
The problem isn't growth, its that most newcomers don't give a damn about the community, or the Bobcats, or Montana. Old Bozeman is real nice, I see it every week when I walk to BUMC for church, through the U. District, and see people coming to all the downtown churchs, where theology and the occasional civic matter are discussed. The Bobcat game is discussed, people ask for my vote in local elections, that sort of thing.
Compare that to the population that lives north of Main. They live in Levittvilles, and drive the Hummer to Wal-Mart to buy crap made in China. They vote right wing, not becuase they believe in the power of the individual, but because they want to shift taxes from the property they own to the working citizens of Montana. They resent the University, and the thousands of poor college students who are in Bozeman, not to look at the Bridger mountains and hob nob with other Californians (we all know where these people come from, let's not pretend), but to learn.
I don't resent newcomers. I do resent their attitude. If they want to come and be a part of Bozeman, I wish them goodwill as neighbors. But, when they come and they think they know better than me, I get real angry.

Post by **SonomaCat** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 2:05 pm

Gecko: You say you don't resent newcomers, but in the same breath you drop the word "Californians" like it's a swear word. Who cares where they are from? Right now (subtle wording), I know for a fact that transplanted Californians in Bozeman are creating a lot of very good jobs for those MSU graduates. It's all part of building a better community. I'm sure there are some bad apples that have moved in from elsewhere, but we have to judge everyone on their individual contributions or lack thereof. I think it might just suprise you how many people move there specifically to be a part of the small town atmosphere and community.

And besides, we Californians do know better about all things at all times than you silly Montanans. Just accept that, and we will get along just fine [as my inner Montanan beats up my outer Californian -- that's going to leave a mark].

Bleedinbluengold · Post by **Bleedinbluengold** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 2:29 pm

Those people (pun intended

) might be creating some jobs, but they are also creating a culture that is diametrically opposed to the historical culture on which Bozeman was built. It's simply a clash of cultures in Bozeman and Whitefish.

If I may be so bold: My humble opinion is that, in general, the mass exodus from California to Montana was led by those in the exploitation business (read: real estate devlopment). My experience is that most of the Californian developers I know about left California because of the increased pressure to control real estate development in that State. These developers came to Montana, because land was cheap, subdivision laws were nearly non-existant, and money talked.

Clash of cultures...

Cat-theotherwhitemeat · Post by **Cat-theotherwhitemeat** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 2:35 pm

Bay Area Cat wrote: I'd hate for Bozeman to ever resemble parts of Billings (The Heights and Grand Avenue come to mind).

BAC, you haven't seen Grand avenue lately have you?

BelgradeBobcat · Post by **BelgradeBobcat** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 2:35 pm

There are a lot of Californians moving here, but as a percentage of the newcomers there's not as many as one might think. It's been a few years, but MSU did a study and found most out of state newcomers are from Washington. But most newcomers to the Bozeman area are simply from other parts of the state. Here in Belgrade, which is growing real fast, we have a lot of young families, many of whom grew up in and around Bozeman, but can't afford to live there. A lot of the Belgrade new comers come from Eastern Montana, work in construction, and yes they do shop at Walmart.

A question for Raincat-did they regularly pack Gatton Field? Or were the normal crowds smaller?

The population growth should help football attendance, but the decline in agriculture in this state may hurt given the ag tie to the University. It will be interesting to see what happens. Of course first and foremost, the team has to keep winning.

Post by **SonomaCat** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 2:43 pm

Cat-theotherwhitemeat wrote:
Bay Area Cat wrote: I'd hate for Bozeman to ever resemble parts of Billings (The Heights and Grand Avenue come to mind).
BAC, you haven't seen Grand avenue lately have you?

Not for a couple years. Did they tear it up, get rid of the business entries every ten feet, and put in left turn lanes? If so, then that's progress. It was such a pain (and so ugly) when I lived there. I spent way too much time on it....

CARDIAC_CATS · Post by **CARDIAC_CATS** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 2:59 pm

Bay Area Cat wrote:
Cat-theotherwhitemeat wrote:
Bay Area Cat wrote: I'd hate for Bozeman to ever resemble parts of Billings (The Heights and Grand Avenue come to mind).
BAC, you haven't seen Grand avenue lately have you?
Not for a couple years. Did they tear it up, get rid of the business entries every ten feet, and put in left turn lanes? If so, then that's progress. It was such a pain (and so ugly) when I lived there. I spent way too much time on it....

I think you will be very amazed when you see how Grand/Heights has changed. The heights is becoming a lot more modern in last 4-5 years. Grand now has turning lanes down the middle of half of its length pretty much and they are trying to reduce amount of signs/size etc. The need to finish the last part up down fast food row and it will be 100 times better. That is suppossed to happen in next 2-3 years I think.

Post by **SonomaCat** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:07 pm

CARDIAC_CATS wrote:
Bay Area Cat wrote:
Cat-theotherwhitemeat wrote:
Bay Area Cat wrote: I'd hate for Bozeman to ever resemble parts of Billings (The Heights and Grand Avenue come to mind).
BAC, you haven't seen Grand avenue lately have you?
Not for a couple years. Did they tear it up, get rid of the business entries every ten feet, and put in left turn lanes? If so, then that's progress. It was such a pain (and so ugly) when I lived there. I spent way too much time on it....
I think you will be very amazed when you see how Grand/Heights has changed. The heights is becoming a lot more modern in last 4-5 years. Grand now has turning lanes down the middle of half of its length pretty much and they are trying to reduce amount of signs/size etc. The need to finish the last part up down fast food row and it will be 100 times better. That is suppossed to happen in next 2-3 years I think.

That's great -- good to hear that my daily mumbling under my breath was finally heard!

It might sound strange, but I always thought that one East-West freeway (or even an expressway) would do wonder for that town. It's amazing how long it took to get from one end to the other as you have to take surface streets the entire way. That would be very pricey, though. Too bad the interstate was built so far from the center of town, although I don't know if there would have been a better way to build it.

Cat-theotherwhitemeat · Post by **Cat-theotherwhitemeat** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:08 pm

Bay Area Cat wrote:
Cat-theotherwhitemeat wrote:
Bay Area Cat wrote: I'd hate for Bozeman to ever resemble parts of Billings (The Heights and Grand Avenue come to mind).
BAC, you haven't seen Grand avenue lately have you?
Not for a couple years. Did they tear it up, get rid of the business entries every ten feet, and put in left turn lanes? If so, then that's progress. It was such a pain (and so ugly) when I lived there. I spent way too much time on it....

As Cardiac mentioned, turning lanes and such. One block in particular was eye sore, and it's been completely torn down, moved back and is much more pleasing. I used to work on Grand 100 years ago and it's done a 180. Much wider and much nicer and they still have more work to come.

The Heights has changed quite a bit as well. I heard they were working on some plans for a bypass going around the heights and hooking up with highway 3.

raincat · Post by **raincat** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:35 pm

Belgrade Bobcat: The only times we filled it up were for the griz games. A good crowd was in the 6K range, typical was 3.5-4K. Cold day, dismal opponent 1.5K. Tailgating as an art form didn't exist.

BelgradeBobcat · Post by **BelgradeBobcat** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 4:16 pm

So we averaged 6K when the town had 15K, and we average about 12K now with town at about 30K, we should average 24K when the town hits 60k, and average 40K when the town hits 100K. It's so simple

grizhatr · Post by **grizhatr** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 4:17 pm

Billings sucks in general! Bozeman by far outclasses many other communities in this state.

johnny popper · Post by **johnny popper** » Sat Sep 18, 2004 10:55 pm

Have to chime in on this debate...while you can have Bozeman and Billings, I'd rather drive in Billings than in Bozeman. At least Billings is doing pretty good at keeping up with traffic growth. There are few places that are worse than 7th, 19th and/or Main in Bozeman (the few worse places are in Missoula!).

As far as Bozeman and growth you can have that too. It's already a little Colorado of its own, quite out of touch with the rest of MT. Hell there isn't even a regular stockyard sale in that "cow-town". Meanwhile Billings has TWO of largest in the state.

Bozeman's Big R is a nice flashy new store, and a good place to sharpen up your western "image" - a cool place to be seen by your neighbors while you buy some new toys for the horsey that lives on your 10 acre plot.. It doesn't offer much for helping you earn a living on grass or grain.

The whole Gallatain valley has an uppity-"boutique" feeling to it that Billings doesn't have. Billings is more down to earth and caters more to the Ag side of MT.

There are some good people doing good things at the U for Ag, and the extension service is phenemonal given the hamstringing that the Legislature likes to give them.

I agree there are some good Montanans (and out of stater's) moving to the area and finding a decent living. We all know the state's economy needs it, but I'm sure glad it's not me! I'll take the Judith Basin, Great Falls, the High Line or Billings over it any day!

JP

velochat · Post by **velochat** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 8:08 am

I was in Billings last week. It has improved quite a bit, lately. Montana Avenue has been good for several years and downtown is improving again as it goes through it's continual boom and bust cycles. Grand Avenue isn't as bad as it used to be, but it's really not a major transportation or retail corridor anymore, compared to the Homestead big box land. I found a pretty good restaurant by chance, wwayy out on Grand, called Enzo. Billings is way too spread out, though and only getting worse. I hope when Bozeman has that many people (not far down the road, like it or not), that we won't be that sprawled. All this being said, I'll stay in Bozeman over Billings, anyday, but if you have reason to visit Billings, it's not all bad and there are signs of a progressive sub culture among the oil worshippers.

As for Bozeman, we might as well enjoy the expanded entertainment options and touch of glamour; for those who hate that, this isn't the place for them and there are plenty of real dusty, wal-mart worshippng cowtowns to choose from. Cost of housing worries me, though, as it's nearing the point that we middle class types will no longer be able to come to Bozeman. As for the Hummers, we should have designated parking for them, somewhere near Three Forks, and provide them a bus to ride any closer to Bozeman.