Religious "tolerance"

[SonomaCat]

Nice try Bac i am not going to let you get away with overgeneralizing a article even an hour before a chem test.

= Bill O'Reilly]Christians are entitled to same sensibilities and courtesies every other religion receives in this country. Hope you agree.

basically the article is about a pre school teacher that got fired for having a child out of wedlock. While yes, I will agree with you firing her because she got pregnent sounds bad, just by taking the teaching posation at a catholic school obligated her to be a roll model to her kids. I am willing to bet that as part of her employment contract it stipulated that by getting pregnent before marrage, or doing anything else that can bring shame down upon the school, example drinking and driving, sleeping with a student, child porn addiction...and ect, can and will result in her termination. She has the responsibility to be a good role model to her students, and by getting pregnenet without a husband *i think the kids will tell if she is wearing a ring or not...* that shows the kids that it is the christain way to get pregenent out of wedlock...

back to studying chem

To go down a different path from the rest of the thread, it appears that the WTO appears with the rationale of the Catholic church:

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f ... 104S38.DTL

I actually believe that private entities should have the right to hire and fire as they please. I'm not sure of the ACLU position on the school thing -- does the school get any public money? That would make a huge difference. If it doesn't, then strictly from a philosophical perspective (as I am not familiar with the applicable law), I think both the Catholics and the WTO are totally justified in firing people that don't fit their own moral or health standards.

[SonomaCat]

Back to the main theme of the thread:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/EDUCATION/12/06 ... index.html

[SonomaCat]

And the Catholic Mullahs get into the Fatwa act as well:

Leary Upsets Catholics
Comedian Denis Leary has upset Catholic groups after mocking Christmas during his TV special "Denis Leary's Merry F#%' Christmas."

The actor, 48, jokes about lesbian nuns, the origins of Christmas and sings a song by Our Lady of Perpetual Suffering Church Choir about a prostitute.

In one segment, Leary says, "Tonight we celebrate the birth of the baby Jesus, whose mom, Mary, just happens to be a virgin -- even after she apparently gave birth to Jesus. At least that is what the Catholic Church would have you believe.

"Tom Cruise is taking a lot of [bleep] for belonging to a religion, Scientology, that believes aliens came to this planet 75 million years ago. That is nothing. I was raised Catholic. We believe Mary was a virgin and Jesus ended up walking on water, creating a bottomless jug of wine and rising from the dead."

After hearing Leary's jokes, Bill Donohue, president of the Catholic League for Religious Ad Civil Rights, fumes, "Hate speech dressed in humorous garb is still hate speech. Leary is obviously bedeviled by some disorder but nothing excuses this crap."

Donohue's colleague and Catholic League spokeswoman Kiera McCaffrey adds, "Going after the Blessed Mother is the kind of thing that really gets our backs up."

In defense, Tony Fox from the Comedy Central TV channel, says, "Comedy Central is an adult network and we think Denis Leary has the right to speak freely about what he thinks is funny. We don't cave to pressure and we're not pulling the show off the air."

[catsrback76]

There you have it. Denis Leary got it right, this is what Christmas is all about

Tonight we celebrate the birth of the baby Jesus, whose mom, Mary, just happens to be a virgin -- even after she apparently gave birth to Jesus...
We believe Mary was a virgin and Jesus ended up walking on water, creating a bottomless jug of wine and rising from the dead."


Although Denis intended it satirically and with clear ridicule, he did in fact get the FACTS right.

Christmas is a celebration for mankind of the most amazing "invasion" of all. Jesus Christ invaded a hostile world in flesh and blood with unconditional forgiveness and grace for sin. Whoever comes to believe, trust, and follow him will be freed from the dominion of and corruptive power of sin. Jesus was the first covert ops guy.

The Joy to the World's are sung for one simple reason, "the Lord has come". Thanks Denis for the opportunity to preach.

[mquast53000]

In defense, Tony Fox from the Comedy Central TV channel, says, "Comedy Central is an adult network and we think Denis Leary has the right to speak freely about what he thinks is funny. We don't cave to pressure and we're not pulling the show off the air."

I wonder if Tony's stance would be the same if these comments were made about Muslims.

[SonomaCat]

In defense, Tony Fox from the Comedy Central TV channel, says, "Comedy Central is an adult network and we think Denis Leary has the right to speak freely about what he thinks is funny. We don't cave to pressure and we're not pulling the show off the air."

I wonder if Tony's stance would be the same if these comments were made about Muslims.

Good point ... because none of us have ever heard anything derogatory about the Islam religion in our entertainment media. No jokes about 70 virgins, snide comments about martyrs, criticism of the Taliban's treatment of women, jokes about Fatwas and Mullahs and Jihads -- not a word. Jon Stewart certainly never touches any of these topics on a network like Comedy Central. If he even tried, Tony Fox would shut him down faster than you can say "selective memory."

[mquast53000]

In defense, Tony Fox from the Comedy Central TV channel, says, "Comedy Central is an adult network and we think Denis Leary has the right to speak freely about what he thinks is funny. We don't cave to pressure and we're not pulling the show off the air."

I wonder if Tony's stance would be the same if these comments were made about Muslims.

Good point ... because none of us have ever heard anything derogatory about the Islam religion in our entertainment media. No jokes about 70 virgins, snide comments about martyrs, criticism of the Taliban's treatment of women, jokes about Fatwas and Mullahs and Jihads -- not a word. Jon Stewart certainly never touches any of these topics on a network like Comedy Central. If he even tried, Tony Fox would shut him down faster than you can say "selective memory."

Come on BAC, these comments that we hear are about EXTREMISTS not the majority of the Muslim population. Leary's comments were attacks on ALL Catholics (and pretty much all other Christian Religions). The extremists that we hear jokes made are by far a small minority of all Muslims, and in all farness I don’t think any extremists watch Comedy Central. Nice try playing devils advocate though...

[SonomaCat]

In defense, Tony Fox from the Comedy Central TV channel, says, "Comedy Central is an adult network and we think Denis Leary has the right to speak freely about what he thinks is funny. We don't cave to pressure and we're not pulling the show off the air."

I wonder if Tony's stance would be the same if these comments were made about Muslims.

Good point ... because none of us have ever heard anything derogatory about the Islam religion in our entertainment media. No jokes about 70 virgins, snide comments about martyrs, criticism of the Taliban's treatment of women, jokes about Fatwas and Mullahs and Jihads -- not a word. Jon Stewart certainly never touches any of these topics on a network like Comedy Central. If he even tried, Tony Fox would shut him down faster than you can say "selective memory."

Come on BAC, these comments that we hear are about EXTREMISTS not the majority of the Muslim population. Leary's comments were attacks on ALL Catholics (and pretty much all other Christian Religions). The extremists that we hear jokes made are by far a small minority of all Muslims, and in all farness I don’t think any extremists watch Comedy Central. Nice try playing devils advocate though...

They are tenets of the religion. Yes, only the extremists act on them in violent fashion, but the beliefs are held by all in varying degrees and applications, just as Christians hold the Bible to be literal or symbolic in varying degrees.

Leary didn't "attack" anyone. He mocked the idea of believing that those stories of Catholicism are literally true. It's no different than mocking a belief that God told Muslims to keep their women covered from head to toe.

I'm guessing he also pointed out that it makes little sense that Joseph would marry Mary, but never have sex with her. I haven't seen the performance, but that's the next logical step.

I'm guessing nobody from the Catholic League watches comedy central, either. They aren't a group with a reputation for having much of a sense of humor about anything.

[wbtfg]

Dennis Leary is a COMEDIAN!!! His remarks were on COMEDY CENTRAL!!!

I hate it when people get pissed off about what is said on Comedy Central. People need to realize that this isn't a news channel, and they aren't trying to report fair and acurate news. They are trying to make people laugh.

That's like looking for acurate news about the MSU football team on the Smack Board. Some of it may have a shread of truth, but for the most part it is meant to be either funny or offensive.

[catsrback76]

Dennis Leary is a COMEDIAN!!! His remarks were on COMEDY CENTRAL!!!

I hate it when people get pissed off about what is said on Comedy Central. People need to realize that this isn't a news channel, and they aren't trying to report fair and acurate news. They are trying to make people laugh.

That's like looking for acurate news about the MSU football team on the Smack Board. Some of it may have a shread of truth, but for the most part it is meant to be either funny or offensive.

I understand the point you're making however I disagree that because it was on The Comedy Channel makes it less political, social, or preachy. In fact, I'm of the conviction that The Comedy Channel is far more political and social issue driven than CNN, ABC, CBS et al.

Listening to the diatribe coming from the "comedians" these days requires an awareness of the issues they are using to try and make me laugh.

Don't tell me Bill Maher, ( whom I have no interest in), Jon Stewart ( whom I really like), The Report guy ( sorry forgot his name-- I love), Dennis Miller ( drives me crazy but makes some points) have comedy as their prime objective. These guys are using the adage:
" a spoon full of sugar helps the medicine go down", thinking that if they can get you to laugh at something, you will cozy up to the idea.
Denis Leary is of the same ilk.

These guys are really modern day "criers" who preach from the soapbox of "comedy". I think it is very effective even if I don't like the message. The reason why a Leary is getting heat has less to do with his comedic delivery and more to do with what he's preaching.

There are different types of comics to be sure, and some are funny for funny sake. But these guys are political, religious and social cause driven like no bodies business. It is their business to change the way you think, not just to make you laugh.

To not see that is naive.

[SonomaCat]

I agree ... comedy is one form of persuasion that is often very effective because it is based on pointing out the aburdity of contrary views in an entertaining manner. Virtually every comedian does have strong opinions on social or political matters, and their act certainly contains elements of persuasion.

That being said, I find it frightening any time any religious group wants to silence someone that doesn't agree with their interpretations of history.

[catsrback76]

That being said, I find it frightening any time any religious group wants to silence someone that doesn't agree with their interpretations of history.

As point of clarification... I am not saying he doesn't have the right to say what he says. My point is 2 fold.
1. He is preaching publically and his message needs to be understood for what it is... a message.
2. As such, he is open to public critique and disagreement. It is not off limits to call his message to account if one disagrees with it.

[SonomaCat]

That being said, I find it frightening any time any religious group wants to silence someone that doesn't agree with their interpretations of history.

As point of clarification... I am not saying he doesn't have the right to say what he says. My point is 2 fold.
1. He is preaching publically and his message needs to be understood for what it is... a message.
2. As such, he is open to public critique and disagreement. It is not off limits to call his message to account if one disagrees with it.

I agree. Anyone should be free to disagree or criticize someone for their message, but when they start making demands that the person they disagree with be silenced (by trying to pressure the network to pull the show), then I have a problem with them.

More speech is always better than less speech. Then let everybody listen to all of the speech and sort out for themselves what is right and what is wrong.

In this immediate case, though, it doesn't appear that the Catholic League is really adding anything to the conversation. They are simply upset that Leary dares to question their beliefs. They are not supporting their position (which really doesn't need any support -- everybody is already well aware of it and already realizes that it is supported exclusively through faith), but rather, they are just denouncing him for having a different view. And, in the process, they are trying to silence him. Kudos to Comedy Central for not allowing a religious group bully them into self-censorship ... regardless of which religious group that might be.

[catsrback76]

That being said, I find it frightening any time any religious group wants to silence someone that doesn't agree with their interpretations of history.

As point of clarification... I am not saying he doesn't have the right to say what he says. My point is 2 fold.
1. He is preaching publically and his message needs to be understood for what it is... a message.
2. As such, he is open to public critique and disagreement. It is not off limits to call his message to account if one disagrees with it.

I agree. Anyone should be free to disagree or criticize someone for their message, but when they start making demands that the person they disagree with be silenced (by trying to pressure the network to pull the show), then I have a problem with them.

More speech is always better than less speech. Then let everybody listen to all of the speech and sort out for themselves what is right and what is wrong.

In this immediate case, though, it doesn't appear that the Catholic League is really adding anything to the conversation. They are simply upset that Leary dares to question their beliefs. They are not supporting their position (which really doesn't need any support -- everybody is already well aware of it and already realizes that it is supported exclusively through faith), but rather, they are just denouncing him for having a different view. And, in the process, they are trying to silence him. Kudos to Comedy Central for not allowing a religious group bully them into self-censorship ... regardless of which religious group that might be.

I wonder if the issue is not censorship as much as it needs to be consideration and respect. If for example a KKK "comedian" wanted to ridicule the black culture comedically, I would hope that Comedy Central would not censor the guy, but would simply not platform him.

I understand that is hyperbole, but it makes the point that someone will always need to make a call when "free speech" should be curtailed for the greater good of all by those who make decisions on appropriateness.

That is not censorship, but it very much is taking a platform out from underneath a person or group that is destructive with said, "free speech".