20,000 tons weapons destroyed

[BWahlberg]

Try this on for size

80%

- The percentage of Iraqi citizens that want the US out of their county.

is that the poll number that the trator senitor states whenever he speaks? it is contrary to what i have been seeing about our approvial numbers with iraqui citizens. of course they would want us out...only after we take care of setting up their nation

better poll numbers to cite:

% of iraquis approving of the effort of the terrorists
% of iraquis who think we are doing a good job

Mutha's a traitor huh?

[Hell's Bells]

Try this on for size

80%

- The percentage of Iraqi citizens that want the US out of their county.

is that the poll number that the trator senitor states whenever he speaks? it is contrary to what i have been seeing about our approvial numbers with iraqui citizens. of course they would want us out...only after we take care of setting up their nation

better poll numbers to cite:

% of iraquis approving of the effort of the terrorists
% of iraquis who think we are doing a good job

Mutha's a traitor huh?

he was a vietnam vet...right?
so he knows directly how the type of dilge he is spewing affects our fellow americans in the battlefield, especially if it seems to be directly edited by the fat angery citizen of the world known as mike moore

[BWahlberg]

Wow, Hells, thought I was reading something by Sean Hannity for a minute.

Michael Moore didn't write this speech, Murtha did.

He's calling for a slow withdrawl, not an immediate pullout, something that will slowly hand the power to the Iraqi police. Murtha's been quiet up until now, and he's a widley respected man for his past and current accomplishments. His plan is a good one, and the quicker something like it goes in place, the better.

Whats funny to me is that Bush will throw BILLIONS of dollars at Iraq but not the poor sectors within the US. Guess it all boils down to who offers him the most money, huh?

[Hell's Bells]

Wow, Hells, thought I was reading something by Sean Hannity for a minute.

Michael Moore didn't write this speech, Murtha did.

He's calling for a slow withdrawl, not an immediate pullout, something that will slowly hand the power to the Iraqi police. Murtha's been quiet up until now, and he's a widley respected man for his past and current accomplishments. His plan is a good one, and the quicker something like it goes in place, the better.

Whats funny to me is that Bush will throw BILLIONS of dollars at Iraq but not the poor sectors within the US. Guess it all boils down to who offers him the most money, huh?

ok ill bite...*shrugs*

1) remax tell that to the iraqui who just voted in a presidental election freely for the first time ever, btw all sides are cooperating

2) ok now i know i am going to get slammed for this one but here it goes..
a) we are a true workers paradice...think about it how well would you do selling houses in...say...syria. you would not make it far. our poor are not poor in real world standards for the most part, and also for the most part they have a mental defect and should be in a mental hospital, or are chronic drug/alcohol abusers who cant hold a steady jod
b) we *the goverment* gives these poor lots of ways to get out of the ghetto so to speak

3) thanks for the hannity compliment

4) he is not calling for a slow withdrawl, seems to me he wants the troops out of iraq yesterday

5) what is sad about all of this is that, this is his 15 minutes of fame. he could have spent it in afganistan *like rush did* or iraq, since he is a goverment official lord knows he has greater access then a private citizen. he could have seen for himself what is going on there, other then relying on news media reports and what does he do? he tries to tell the commander in chief what to do...good job murtha **thumbs up**

[SonomaCat]

So anybody who wants the troops out of Iraq is a traitor (Pat Tillman and thousands of other soldiers are/were therefore traitors as well) ... and Murtha is a bad guy for trying to affect our foreign policy ... even though that is his job ... and Michael Moore is running the world surrepticiously ... and Rush Limbaugh going to Afghanistan is relevant to one's opinions on Iraq ... and Vietnam vets who are against the war are bad, but people who avoided service in Vietnam, but like to send others to war should never be questioned or disagreed with ... and a Congressman with over 30 years in the House is just having his Andy Warhol 15 minutes of fame.

And the sky is this strange little world is what color?

Slowly back away from the radio ... and expose yourself to some other sources of information on the world.

[briannell]

and Vietnam vets who are against the war are bad

many Vets are against the war, BUT support the troops. I know you were just playing devil's advocate here Brad. They (the vets I know) don't think these guys should have such lengthy deployments, also the Armed forces are too small in numbers for allotting so many troops to one place (Iraq) leaves us vulnerable at home. Also, are guys aren't getting the post deployment (mental) help they need, same as in Vietnam era and they think that should be better now.

so many of the guys here at Ft. Lewis come back REALLY screwed up from their experience overseas, yet they're not recieving the mental health they need, because at least at Ft. Lewis, the pysch's are way too few in numbers to handle the demand.

That reference to clinton - I agree with - at least Bush served in uniform -yeah it was pretty "fake" BUT he served. That is what always nagged at me about Clinton - Commander and Cheif but with NO military duty under his belt (just Monica ) That being said I will always give props to Clinton as our President he balanced our budget, brought the Middle East Closer to Peace than any other President, and we had a good economy.

Now get off your PC and go SKI with your awesome girlfriend!!!

[SonomaCat]

and Vietnam vets who are against the war are bad

many Vets are against the war, BUT support the troops.

Yep. I completely agree. And I'm sure Murtha supports the troops as well (by his own words, he doesn't want them to get killed needlessly, which seems like a nice sentiment) ... even though Hell's is calling him a "traitor."

I'm looking forward to getting out of here and getting up to Tahoe ... but I have a few more hours of back breaking sitting on my ass in front of a computer time before I can leave.

[Hell's Bells]

and Vietnam vets who are against the war are bad

many Vets are against the war, BUT support the troops.

Yep. I completely agree. And I'm sure Murtha supports the troops as well (by his own words, he doesn't want them to get killed needlessly, which seems like a nice sentiment) ... even though Hell's is calling him a "traitor."

think about it...i seriously doubt he has actually been to iraq so i am pretty sure murtha is just shooting from the hip

also the president is commander in chief...right? if so then all murtha is doing is getting in the way of President Bushs constatutional wartime power

you can go back to your little war protest over there in san fran brad...

[SonomaCat]

and Vietnam vets who are against the war are bad

many Vets are against the war, BUT support the troops.

Yep. I completely agree. And I'm sure Murtha supports the troops as well (by his own words, he doesn't want them to get killed needlessly, which seems like a nice sentiment) ... even though Hell's is calling him a "traitor."

think about it...i seriously doubt he has actually been to iraq so i am pretty sure murtha is just shooting from the hip

also the president is commander in chief...right? if so then all murtha is doing is getting in the way of President Bushs constatutional wartime power

you can go back to your little war protest over there in san fran brad...

Let me get this straight ... when a President takes a country to war (with or without bogus intelligence as the justification), you are telling me that the Constitution grants the President the power to do whatever he wants, and that Congress is not allowed to opine on it if they don't agree with the President?

I think you are confused ... you are describing Iraq's political structure under Saddam. Ironic, isn't it? Fortunately, our system of government does not operate the way you think it does, and Congressmen and women are certainly entitled and encouraged to provide input into the way our country is run. We have a President ... not a King.

And when we have a Democrat as a President again, you will certainly swing your opinions on the topic 180 degrees (at the cue of the radio hosts that give you your talking points).

And calling Murtha a traitor is not only showing the ugliest side of mindless partisan politics, it's flat-out stupid.

Have a Merry Christmas, and I hope you have lots of history and government books (written by people who actually know something on the topics) waiting for you under the tree.

[BWahlberg]

and Vietnam vets who are against the war are bad

many Vets are against the war, BUT support the troops.

Yep. I completely agree. And I'm sure Murtha supports the troops as well (by his own words, he doesn't want them to get killed needlessly, which seems like a nice sentiment) ... even though Hell's is calling him a "traitor."

think about it...i seriously doubt he has actually been to iraq so i am pretty sure murtha is just shooting from the hip

also the president is commander in chief...right? if so then all murtha is doing is getting in the way of President Bushs constatutional wartime power

you can go back to your little war protest over there in san fran brad...

So Hells in a perfect world no one would speak out against the president or voice altering opinions? No wonder you like Bush so much, because isn't that how he runs his cabinet? Disagree with him, and you're fired, what a terrible way to run the country.

[Hell's Bells]

1) no i wont swing my opinions if we are blessed with a dem president, if we do in fact go to war, for example i liked our going into serbia

2) pre war intelligence does not matter now...we are in iraq.

3) i dont know i guess what really gets me is that he *murtha* knows and understands the effects of what he is talking about first hand yet he still does it...i guess i am just overreacting to a congressmen giving out faulty poll numbers *i saw a poll first hand that debunks him, i still dont know how he gets his 80 percent but for the record cant find the poll*

[SonomaCat]

1) no i wont swing my opinions if we are blessed with a dem president, if we do in fact go to war, for example i liked our going into serbia

2) pre war intelligence does not matter now...we are in iraq.

3) i dont know i guess what really gets me is that he *murtha* knows and understands the effects of what he is talking about first hand yet he still does it...i guess i am just overreacting to a congressmen giving out faulty poll numbers *i saw a poll first hand that debunks him, i still dont know how he gets his 80 percent but for the record cant find the poll*

A lot of Republicans were speaking out against Clinton over Serbia. Were they traitors? Were you outraged at the behavior of the Republicans then?

You seem to be missing a very, very, very large point about Murtha (and many, many others) who were in Vietnam and are now in favor of withdrawing from Iraq. It is largely BECAUSE they were in Vietnam and DO know exactly what war is like for the soldiers that they want the soldiers out of there. They have a much more direct knowledge of exactly what "supporting the troops" is all about than you or me, or anyone in the Bush administration ... because they have been there.

Kind of like McCain having a little more insight into torture than anyone in the administration.

Experience is a great teacher, and it doesn't hurt to listen to those who have it.

But Rush went to Afghanistan, and I'm sure he put himself in harm's way every second of the trip , so let's call the guy who fought in Vietnam a traitor and look upon Rush as a national hero. Makes sense.

[Hell's Bells]

You seem to be missing a very, very, very large point about Murtha (and many, many others) who were in Vietnam and are now in favor of withdrawing from Iraq. It is largely BECAUSE they were in Vietnam and DO know exactly what war is like for the soldiers that they want the soldiers out of there. They have a much more direct knowledge of exactly what "supporting the troops" is all about than you or me, or anyone in the Bush administration ... because they have been there.

Kind of like McCain having a little more insight into torture than anyone in the administration.

Experience is a great teacher, and it doesn't hurt to listen to those who have it.

that is my point

if experience is the best teacher they would know that
1) the media does have a big imact on public/world opinion
2) our enimies do have access to media...ex all of bin ladens press releases throughout the years
example...there is a hall of "war heros" in vietnam near the capital city. it has people like john kerry and jane fonda enshrined as heros.
3) if they do care about soldigers they have access to goverment aircraft and can fly to iraq and form an opinion of their own insead of having their opinions being bought and paid for by abc/cbs/nbc


im sorry bac but if mccain and murtha would have flown to iraq themselves then i would trust them a bit more on this.

[SonomaCat]

Blah, blah, blah, Jane Fonda, blah, blah, blah, John Kerry, blah, blah, blah, Rush Limbaugh. Can I get a Barbara Streisand for good luck?

To focus back in on the philosophy you are trying to support, is it or is it not true, in your mind, that the Republicans who publicly voiced opinions inconsisent with those of Clinton over the course of action to taken Serbia are "traitors?"

If you say no, then you are being a massive hypocrite. If you say yes, then we have an entire party of Republicans that we must put on trial for treason.

[Hell's Bells]

To focus back in on the philosophy you are trying to support, is it or is it not true, in your mind, that the Republicans who publicly voiced opinions inconsisent with those of Clinton over the course of action to taken Serbia are "traitors?"

If you say no, then you are being a massive hypocrite. If you say yes, then we have an entire party of Republicans that we must put on trial for treason.

if they were saying statements that were akin to the statements that are being said now by the news media and the american left then yes they are acting like a bunch of tratiors...

and no you are not getting your babs....

[BWahlberg]

Wait, OK Hells besides Karl Rove's cute little hate commercials about Kerry, how is he not a war hero? He served this country and risked his life to save other men. How is he not a hero?

[Hell's Bells]

Wait, OK Hells besides Karl Rove's cute little hate commercials about Kerry, how is he not a war hero? He served this country and risked his life to save other men. How is he not a hero?

all i was pointing out is that he is a war hero for the north vietnamese, who we were fighting against during vietnam buy the way

[SonomaCat]

The point that Hells was trying to make was that the talk show way to make a point that doesn't make sense (traitors, etc.), you simply make a bunch of other random nonsensical derogatory comments about Democrats or other "enemies," and your audience will eat it up and not bother to logic check any of it.

Unfortunately, that approach to rhetoric doesn't work as well when the audience is motivated to think about things and call BS on the stuff that doesn't make sense.

And so far, nothing that Hells has said has in the slightest way justified his traitor comment ... outside of the fact that he heard someone on the radio say it as well.

[SonomaCat]

To focus back in on the philosophy you are trying to support, is it or is it not true, in your mind, that the Republicans who publicly voiced opinions inconsisent with those of Clinton over the course of action to taken Serbia are "traitors?"

If you say no, then you are being a massive hypocrite. If you say yes, then we have an entire party of Republicans that we must put on trial for treason.

if they were saying statements that were akin to the statements that are being said now by the news media and the american left then yes they are acting like a bunch of tratiors...

and no you are not getting your babs....

As we both know that they were being just as critical, or even more so, than anything we are hearing now, it appears that virtually every conservative in America is a "traitor" by your standards.

I respectfully disagree with your position. I don't think those Republicans are traitors, and I think they were doing their jobs in offering opinions as to the proper course of action for our government. I'm sorry that you think that Clinton could do whatever he wanted and however he wanted, and that nobody should have had the right to disagree. Clinton was not our king, either ... just our President.

[bobcatmaniac]

To focus back in on the philosophy you are trying to support, is it or is it not true, in your mind, that the Republicans who publicly voiced opinions inconsisent with those of Clinton over the course of action to taken Serbia are "traitors?"

If you say no, then you are being a massive hypocrite. If you say yes, then we have an entire party of Republicans that we must put on trial for treason.

if they were saying statements that were akin to the statements that are being said now by the news media and the american left then yes they are acting like a bunch of tratiors...

and no you are not getting your babs....

As we both know that they were being just as critical, or even more so, than anything we are hearing now, it appears that virtually every conservative in America is a "traitor" by your standards.

I respectfully disagree with your position. I don't think those Republicans are traitors, and I think they were doing their jobs in offering opinions as to the proper course of action for our government. I'm sorry that you think that Clinton could do whatever he wanted and however he wanted, and that nobody should have had the right to disagree. Clinton was not our king, either ... just our President.

i am not saying that the president is our "king" per say, all i am saying is that if those congressmen dont like what we are doing with our armed forces there is other ways to go then to bitch and moan to the press about "illegal wars" or "bombing pill factories in the sudan"...ex...author a bill that eliminates the funding for said "police action". anything else is just attention getting and is lazy to say the least