Who actually pays taxes?

[Bleedinbluengold]

Gosh, I feel so entitled....where's the self-flogging room?

[G.W.Bush]

So I just typed a long response to some of your "claims" GW, but the database was messed up. Anyway for you to say we are all college grads and in cush jobs like our parents is ludacrious.

Neither one of my parents graduated from college, my dad works a very blue collar job, but they have worked hard to make a nice life for themselves. As a result I had the opportunity to go to college get an office job and will build on my future so my kids have even better opportunities. I am sorry that you are so jaded, but hard work and the right attitude can get you a lot farther in this world then where you were born can get you.

I have to disagree with your belief that hard work will get you further than how much your parents net worth is. I would say that a poor family living in the ghetto is going to have less opportunities then a child of a millionaire. There are a number of opportunities that will give the rich child more tools for success than a poor child would ever have- ranging from economic, educational and social opportunities to name a few. I am glad that you have never looked or experienced the under belly of America’s poverty, and from the sounds of your success your children will never experience either. Your attitude and those of others that have posted on this thread show why there will never be a social reform in the United States. Hard work only can carry a person so far, and thinking that is all a person needs to have success is illogical. You call my views "jaded" but I call them educated.

[rtb]

This will be my last post on the subject as I feel like we all understand each other's views no matter where we stand.

I don't disagree that "rich" kids have more opportunity than poor children. However opportunities don't create wealth or success. You can get from poverty to wealth in the US so it is therefore not a Caste system. While it is much easier for those who are wealthy to have success it doesn't mean that even the poorest person in this country can't become a success.

[catsrback76]

This will be my last post on the subject as I feel like we all understand each other's views no matter where we stand.

I don't disagree that "rich" kids have more opportunity than poor children. However opportunities don't create wealth or success. You can get from poverty to wealth in the US so it is therefore not a Caste system. While it is much easier for those who are wealthy to have success it doesn't mean that even the poorest person in this country can't become a success.

[Hello Kitty]

This will be my last post on the subject as I feel like we all understand each other's views no matter where we stand.

I don't disagree that "rich" kids have more opportunity than poor children. However opportunities don't create wealth or success. You can get from poverty to wealth in the US so it is therefore not a Caste system. While it is much easier for those who are wealthy to have success it doesn't mean that even the poorest person in this country can't become a success.

I think it goes without saying that hard work will always help a person in a positive direction to achieving their goals but the people I work with on a daily basis are low-income individuals. When they are working hard at improving theirs lives, they are starting back further than I had to. Working hard to achieve their goals usually means - finding safe and affordable housing, getting their GED or trying to complete some work training program, issues with medical bills, family issues since some are financially responsible for grandchildren or siblings children or friends. Unfortunately achieving their goals is hard works because many do not have the tools to persevere. Many stop short of the goals because financial issues stifle them, like heat being shut off or eviction. Some people do break out I suppose but there are generations of people trying to better themselves hardly getting by and are in need of public assistance. I don’t know what exactly a caste system means but to me the goals they strive to achieve are things I did without struggle. (Safe place to live, I was able to go to high school and did not have to work to support my family) small things like that make a large difference.

[Hell's Bells]

This will be my last post on the subject as I feel like we all understand each other's views no matter where we stand.

I don't disagree that "rich" kids have more opportunity than poor children. However opportunities don't create wealth or success. You can get from poverty to wealth in the US so it is therefore not a Caste system. While it is much easier for those who are wealthy to have success it doesn't mean that even the poorest person in this country can't become a success.

opportunities are what you make of them rtb.....

[Hello Kitty]

I again would like to say I am not entirely sure what a caste system is but think about this.
Some children who are from low- income and dysfunctional families have a disadvantage from the time they are born because they are born into sometimes-hostile family environments, complete with drugs and alcohol. When they enter the school system they are the dirty kids, never get hair cuts or cool new back packs. The school supplies them with lunches and sometimes clothes and Christmas gifts. The other kids and teachers start to classify this person even though they are only 7 years old. They miss school a lot because Mom is not waking them or taking them to school. By the time they are 5th graders they are acting out because they see how people view them. By the time they are junior high they feel slighted about the way their life is going and drop out of school. This is a vicious cycle. I don’t know if it can be stopped but it is a very real thing. I think everyone can identify kids like this from their elementary years. Very heart breaking.

[Ponycat]

OUr system is obviously not perfect, but it's the best I know of for rich and poor. If I'm wrong please tell me and we'll all pitch in and by G.W. a plane ticket to that place.

[G.W.Bush]

OUr system is obviously not perfect, but it's the best I know of for rich and poor. If I'm wrong please tell me and we'll all pitch in and by G.W. a plane ticket to that place.

I do think that the US government is one of the best in the world (there are also some very good European governments), but there are social issues that need to be looked at. The gap between the rich and poor is growing not shrinking. If every American had the same opportunities then that gap should be decreasing over time. For any significant social changes to occur in the US people will have to recognize that there are problems that need to be looked at, otherwise there will always be the haves and have nots no.

[Grizlaw]

It seems to me like people are getting a little hung up on the term "caste system," which is maybe an unnecessarily inflammatory term for the basic idea that G.W. is trying to convey. It seems to me that the basic point is that people who are born into wealth in this country do have major advantages over people who are not -- they go to private prep schools, where they probably get a better education than most of us got at our public high schools. They go to Ivy League (or comparable) colleges on their parents' dime, where they get an education that gives them more opportunities than most of us who went to state schools will have (and if their parents also went there, they are "legacies," and thus have an easier time getting accepted to those schools).

Can a poor kid in this country accomplish the same things? Absolutely, but they will have a lot more to overcome in the process.

So do we have a caste system? No, not technically; if we did, it would be impossible for a person to raise his social status, and since it is possible, what we have is not a caste system. On the other hand, though, no one can deny the fact that being born into affluence does carry major advantages in our society.

--GL

[ChiOCat]

It's just like the reported speach where the pres was called a Nazi. Once you use a phrase like "caste system" people are going to get caught up in it. Because Caste System means you are born into one class and can not, never ever, under any circumstances do any better. If he says Caste System, then he sure as he77 better mean that we have a system where you are absolutely forbidden from rising above your born social status. If he means anything other than that, then don't use that term. Make one up if necessary.

I also love how GW has to keep excluding people to make his case stand. We don't count because we all got 4 year degrees. There are people all over this country in thousands of universities getting 4, 6 or 10 year degrees. Many probaly are first in their family to attend college. But they don't count, because they don't fit the CASTE SYSTEM SENARIO that he is trying to perpetuate.

Nor do the several self made people that we have listed here. For some reason or another, they don't count. I want to know who has the master plan and dictates who gets to rise above their born class. And how many they have to allow for us small minded, brainwashed people to believe that this is actually the LAND OF GOLDEN OPPORTUNITY.

Three days after I returned from my first maternity leave, I was laid off because the postion I had was being eliminated. Now, I sure as $hit could have used my "protected female class" to fight it, and more than likely would have been reinstated and someone else laid off. Rather than playing the victim, and blaming this and that and this and that, I went on numerous interviews and accepted a new postion. Was it hard with a three month old at home? Yes. Did I complain, probably more than a bit. But I did it, and before my severance kicked in, I was gainfully employed again.

For once I am happy that my step dad is deceased, because I will not have to tell him that he was just an "example" and someone allowed him to rise above his birth state. Not the hard work and ingenuity he believed got him to where he was.

[Hello Kitty]

Nor do the several self made people that we have listed here. For some reason or another, they don't count. I want to know who has the master plan and dictates who gets to rise above their born class. And how many they have to allow for us small minded, brainwashed people to believe that this is actually the LAND OF GOLDEN OPPORTUNITY.


For once I am happy that my step dad is deceased, because I will not have to tell him that he was just an "example" and someone allowed him to rise above his birth state. Not the hard work and ingenuity he believed got him to where he was.

I don’t think it is small minded to think it is the land of opportunity but if you read my posts above I also think that it is good for people to see that for most Americans living in poverty this is not the land of opportunity. Do you know what I mean? Just recognizing that everyone has his or her own challenges. Your stepfather I am sure was very intelligent, talented and hard working in order for him to become a rare success story.

[catsrback76]

Nor do the several self made people that we have listed here. For some reason or another, they don't count. I want to know who has the master plan and dictates who gets to rise above their born class. And how many they have to allow for us small minded, brainwashed people to believe that this is actually the LAND OF GOLDEN OPPORTUNITY.


For once I am happy that my step dad is deceased, because I will not have to tell him that he was just an "example" and someone allowed him to rise above his birth state. Not the hard work and ingenuity he believed got him to where he was.

I don’t think it is small minded to think it is the land of opportunity but if you read my posts above I also think that it is good for people to see that for most Americans living in poverty this is not the land of opportunity. Do you know what I mean? Just recognizing that everyone has his or her own challenges. Your stepfather I am sure was very intelligent, talented and hard working in order for him to become a rare success story.

Kitty, I believe that opportunity is where you find it and what you "see". Someone picks up a rock and throws it into the lake, while another "sees" a gem to facet. We as a nation have more opportunity laid out in front of all of us. When it is all said and done and we stand before our Maker, I don't think the question will be, "how much opportunity didn't you have?", but rather, " what did you do with what you had?".

Stepping out of America for even a brief tour of the planet confirms the very special things we have access to. Not that we don't have problems, but on a relative scale, to be poor in America is to be rich by most of the nations standards.

[ChiOCat]

Nor do the several self made people that we have listed here. For some reason or another, they don't count. I want to know who has the master plan and dictates who gets to rise above their born class. And how many they have to allow for us small minded, brainwashed people to believe that this is actually the LAND OF GOLDEN OPPORTUNITY.


For once I am happy that my step dad is deceased, because I will not have to tell him that he was just an "example" and someone allowed him to rise above his birth state. Not the hard work and ingenuity he believed got him to where he was.

I don’t think it is small minded to think it is the land of opportunity but if you read my posts above I also think that it is good for people to see that for most Americans living in poverty this is not the land of opportunity. Do you know what I mean? Just recognizing that everyone has his or her own challenges. Your stepfather I am sure was very intelligent, talented and hard working in order for him to become a rare success story.

Yes, I know what you mean. But what GW has repeatedly said is that those peole have ABSOLUTELY no chance of moving out of what they are born into. When in fact, they do. It's not easy, and you definately have to have something in you to make you 1) want to do it and 2) succeed at it. And he has also repeatedly called those of us that still believe that small minded, brainwashed, and non-thinking.

[ChiOCat]

I also think it's good to read the very second post and see that the to be in the top 5% of American's you only have to be making $130,000. That's a good chunk of change, not saying it's not, but it's not like the top 5% are all millionaires. When people talk about "those people being able to afford it" many times "those people" are you're next door neighbor who may make just happen to make a little more than you do.

[briannell]

I agree with many of the posters here - I don't think we have a caste system, many of us are doing better than our parents, because of their sweat. I lived cushy for 23 years, not by my sweat but my parents, and they both came from nothing. Hell my dad didn't graduate HS, lived in a 2 br DC slum apartment with 4 sisters and a mother, he didn't even eat everyday! got in trouble judge made him join the Army. Put in 28 years retired as a major with his Master's. went on to be VP for Wells Fargo nationwide, later for Purina .He came from immegrants with no education his father hauled a vegetable cart around DC, was an abusive drunk, left them. My mom came from MT. grandpa was a bad rancher, very poor family she paid he way to MSU, joined Army became a PT.

I got the good life because of them - you can't do that in a caste system. Heck I'll never live as nicely as I did for my first 23 years, I'm happy with what i have but my kids are no where near the spoiled brats I am. They'll work hard, I insist on college, (although Ben will run to nashville once he graduates MSU )and have lives they are happy with. you can't do that in a caste system.

America is wonderful!!!! I agree with catsrback, you should see the poverty other countries have. we are blessed to live here, and if you want to deem the us as a caste system - sign me up baby!!!!!

[ChiOCat]

I used this in a speech I did on "A Thankful Heart" last November.

I find it embarrassing when news commentators declaim about the economic woes of America. The absolutely poorest citizen of the United States would be considered wealthy beyond imagination by the great majority of people living in third-world countries. Try to imagine a child from the barrio in Los Angeles comparing notes with a child from Calcutta. U.S: "I only have one pair of shoes." India: "I saw a rich person wearing shoes once." U.S.: "We’re so poor we have macaroni and cheese three times a week.We hardly ever get to go to Burger King." India: "I am so happy when I receive my one handful of rice each day. Sometimes after my mother feeds us children, there’s nothing left for her." U.S.: "I only got one toy for Christmas." India: "I wouldn’t have time to play with a toy if I had one. I work from sunup to sundown in the fields so that we will not starve." We can be grateful that we live in the most financially blessed nation that has ever existed on this planet. by Tom Barrett

[G.W.Bush]

It's just like the reported speach where the pres was called a Nazi. Once you use a phrase like "caste system" people are going to get caught up in it. Because Caste System means you are born into one class and can not, never ever, under any circumstances do any better. If he says Caste System, then he sure as he77 better mean that we have a system where you are absolutely forbidden from rising above your born social status. If he means anything other than that, then don't use that term. Make one up if necessary.

I also love how GW has to keep excluding people to make his case stand. We don't count because we all got 4 year degrees. There are people all over this country in thousands of universities getting 4, 6 or 10 year degrees. Many probaly are first in their family to attend college. But they don't count, because they don't fit the CASTE SYSTEM SENARIO that he is trying to perpetuate.

Nor do the several self made people that we have listed here. For some reason or another, they don't count. I want to know who has the master plan and dictates who gets to rise above their born class. And how many they have to allow for us small minded, brainwashed people to believe that this is actually the LAND OF GOLDEN OPPORTUNITY.

Three days after I returned from my first maternity leave, I was laid off because the postion I had was being eliminated. Now, I sure as $hit could have used my "protected female class" to fight it, and more than likely would have been reinstated and someone else laid off. Rather than playing the victim, and blaming this and that and this and that, I went on numerous interviews and accepted a new postion. Was it hard with a three month old at home? Yes. Did I complain, probably more than a bit. But I did it, and before my severance kicked in, I was gainfully employed again.

For once I am happy that my step dad is deceased, because I will not have to tell him that he was just an "example" and someone allowed him to rise above his birth state. Not the hard work and ingenuity he believed got him to where he was.

ChiOCat- I use the term caste system more loosely than you obviously do. There really are no “true” caste systems in the world any longer- people are not born serfs and royalty in any countries that I am aware of. Now that does not mean that there are not systems that share similar characteristics. Granted, there are countries in the world that have more commonalities to a caste system than the United States, but we certainly do have some characteristics of a caste system. I simply view a caste system differently than you do. I am sure there are a number of terms that you and I would not see eye to eye on. I chose this particular term because it was one that I felt would most fittingly described thoughts I was trying to convey.

I exclude anomalies. You can not say Mark Cuban is anything other than an anomaly. I child growing up in the ghettos of New York are statistically more likely to remain in the ghetto as an adult than they are to become a millionaire. Most people will agree an anomaly should not be representing an entire group- in this case Mark Cuban should not be representing the middle class. I also explained why I did not consider all of the posters experiences on BN. We are not a random sample of the United States- therefore our characteristics and experiences are not comparable to Americans’ as a whole. My arguments are not based on personal experiences, rather they are based on studies and different lectures and literatures I have been able to study from. Your arguments however are based on your experiences and people that you know. Do I personally know a number of poverty stricken people? No, because I am middle class citizen. The people that I know are for the most part in the same income bracket as I am, and are not a good representation of all Americans. One group does not represent all of America, and trying to use only examples of certain people will not be a good illustration of the 280 million people in the United States. Sorry ChiOCat, but your arguments are from a VERY small selection of the United States; therefore hold no bearing to my argument

[ChiOCat]

So, give us your solution.

[Hello Kitty]

I was just speaking with another public assistance worker about this very thread. I don’t know of any solution but I think being aware of people’s disadvantages is at least a step in the right direction. I sometimes believe that pubic assistance is not even an answer but a perpetuation of poverty. Although there are countries that have a lower level of poverty than the US, that does not make the poverty in this country less of an issue to the people experiencing it.
I don’t know. Frustrating topic. I am glad we can all recognize a problem though.
Happy Friday everyone. Have agreat weekend!