What do you think - America's future

Post by **SonomaCat** » Wed Mar 15, 2006 5:47 pm

Yeah, we're really spiraling out of control since the good old days in this country. With a lot of luck and some good back to the future progress, maybe we can get all women back in the kitchen, strip all rights away from non-whites (and even enslave them), and ostracize or kill anyone who isn't a white protestant.

I don't know ... I think we're heading in the right direction -- looking back isnt' a pretty picture.

briannell · Post by **briannell** » Wed Mar 15, 2006 9:00 pm

Now Brad THAT wasn't what i was getting at, and you are intelligent enough to know I was referring to the immorality in our society. the downspiral being the flagrant disregard for decentcy. the lawlessness, the drugs, scandels, twisted sexuality. For your in the kitchen comment, All I can say is for the true Bible thumpers out there the Bible does point out that a womans place is to be raising children and caring for the home. you see God knows that women have it all together, that we are strong and can run the show better than a man, which is why he calls women to submit to her husband. The husband needs to get confidence that he can rule the show half as well as his wife. there is power in her submission as SHE is the example for her husband. besides with one crazy in the house (hubby) you don't need the woman to turn into a hot head too. by the way this is all in 1Peter, i believe around chapter 2, where he goes into how a man and woman in marriage should relate to each other

Post by **SonomaCat** » Wed Mar 15, 2006 9:15 pm

The lawlessness, the drugs (that didn't even used to be illegal), the scandals and the sexuality have always been with us. We just assume they are worse now than in the past because we weren't around in the past and have a Leave it to Beaver perspective on the world before our time.

There has been bad stuff in our country for a long, long time. Now, we just have internet to cumulate it and deliver it to our fingertips at a moment's notice.

I'm sorry, you've just touched on a very big gripe of mine -- that being the "good old days" philosophy that is nostalgic for a byegone era that is largely comprised of romantic fiction. We've always had problems with social issues in this country, and they were certainly a lot worse then than now. Sure, some people are upset that people can be gay or have sex before marriage (which happened all of the time in the past as well, even if it never happened on black and white TV shows), but on the real issues that really mean something, we are WAY more moral than we have ever been in the past.

Discrimination is becoming taboo, even among the most conservative in our society.

The poor in our country are now (somewhat ironically) fat ... they aren't starving to death as they had in the past.

Violent crime has been trending downward since the early 90s. Even abortion is trending downwards during that same period of time (as a % of population).

These are all, in my mind, signs of a big improvement in truly moral behavior. With it, people have more freedoms to do what they want without shame, harrassment, or death, and I also view that as an advancement of moral behavior. The only way I can see somebody making an argument that our morals are declining is if one thinks that people should be forced to live their lives like they (those making the "immoral" argument) think God wants them to live based on their selective reading of poorly translated ancient texts as opposed to measuring the real and true morality of the way those people treat others (which is the only thing that I think should be important to anyone). As I've said before, if a person's actions hurt nobody else, then I don't think anyone should label them as immoral. I also understand that many people disagree with me on that point ... including all radical Muslims.

catsrback76 · Post by **catsrback76** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 8:20 am

Bay Area Cat wrote:The lawlessness, the drugs (that didn't even used to be illegal), the scandals and the sexuality have always been with us. We just assume they are worse now than in the past because we weren't around in the past and have a Leave it to Beaver perspective on the world before our time.

There has been bad stuff in our country for a long, long time. Now, we just have internet to cumulate it and deliver it to our fingertips at a moment's notice.

I'm sorry, you've just touched on a very big gripe of mine -- that being the "good old days" philosophy that is nostalgic for a byegone era that is largely comprised of romantic fiction. We've always had problems with social issues in this country, and they were certainly a lot worse then than now. Sure, some people are upset that people can be gay or have sex before marriage (which happened all of the time in the past as well, even if it never happened on black and white TV shows), but on the real issues that really mean something, we are WAY more moral than we have ever been in the past.

Discrimination is becoming taboo, even among the most conservative in our society.

The poor in our country are now (somewhat ironically) fat ... they aren't starving to death as they had in the past.

Violent crime has been trending downward since the early 90s. Even abortion is trending downwards during that same period of time (as a % of population).

These are all, in my mind, signs of a big improvement in truly moral behavior. With it, people have more freedoms to do what they want without shame, harrassment, or death, and I also view that as an advancement of moral behavior. The only way I can see somebody making an argument that our morals are declining is if one thinks that people should be forced to live their lives like they (those making the "immoral" argument) think God wants them to live based on their selective reading of poorly translated ancient texts as opposed to measuring the real and true morality of the way those people treat others (which is the only thing that I think should be important to anyone). As I've said before, if a person's actions hurt nobody else, then I don't think anyone should label them as immoral. I also understand that many people disagree with me on that point ... including all radical Muslims.

Brad, I am not one who longs for the "good ol days" of yesteryear with doe eyes and longing. You are right, immorality has existed through all the years until now. From the first bite of the fruit in the garden we have had a mess on our hands. Hence the reason for our need for moral laws. When you drive the Going to the Sun Highway it is nice to have the guardrails on the winding curvy road. Responsibility for public safety requires that strong railing be put up to protect us from ourselves. Sure you can still jump the rails if you like, but to certain death. The guardrails for life are moral laws.
Morality cannot be subjective otherwise it is your preferences against mine. Without God's definition of moral right and wrong we take and blur the lines for our own selfish ends. Pretty soon it isn't murder it is "you just didn't understand". Soon it isn't stealing it is "I wanted it so I downloaded it for free". Those are moral issues that reflect our hearts true nature. The difference between you and I is that I don't trust humanity at it's core. I don't trust anyone's humanity at it's core, even mine. We, by nature, are selfishly motivated and ego driven. (God's definition of our condition). To say that the moral fiber of America is weak is an understatement. That is not to compare it to to the Arab's, Europeans, Asians etc. etc. etc. that is to compare us to God definition of moral integrity. The universality of Gods law enables me to confidently visit my friends in Russia and speak to them about "immorality" and know that regardless of their cultural difference from the US, they get it. I can also visit my friends in Uganda and the same discussions hold the same water. As much as we wish to believe that we can cut ourselves loose from the anchor of God alas we cannot.

"“We hold these truths to be self evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights; ..."

The framers got it right. Again, civil law is in my opinion the most basic moral commitment we live up to. You are right, a theocracy won't work this side of heaven. That doesn't mean that to live by the dictates of his word cannot, will not, produce order, justice, liberty and life for all that is fair.
To insist on having the "right" to have sex before marriage or to be homosexual, the two examples you listed, is not at it's core in my opinion a legal matter, but it is a moral matter.
To think it otherwise and to endorse a 'if it feels good do it, eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die" lifestyle that sells today, but it comes at a high price. Even if everyone consents. And as the discussion thead goes, it destroys the fabric of our society. Integrity is not realized personally or corporately when we live selfishly. It grows only when we live for the good of all. How we do that, from a theists view, is by listening to God and choosing what he says is right and integrity based living. Our problem right now in America is that we believe in " a god" but we don't want him meddling in our affairs. In essence we want to run our lives on our terms. Unfortunatly, for our whim and wishes he who made us understands us better than we ourselves. His moral directives show us how to live well together and with him. The engine hums. To refuse to follow the owners manual because we "know better" doesn't mean the engine stops running right then, but it does mean at some point the engine will not run as it should. Rebecca's point and my point is that we think this nation has chucked the rules in the bin and we're hearing the sputtering from the engine.

On the note about " poorly translated ancient texts" you need to do your research better. If you're talking about the biblical texts, you are talking about the most widely researched, critiqued, cross examined historical documents we have on record. The problem isn't the translator teams who "got it wrong" it is that you simply don't like what they say. I understand that you don't like what they say, but to suggest that the translations are wrong or poor is very weak Brad.

DaCats · Post by **DaCats** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 9:40 am

Bay Area Cat wrote:The lawlessness, the drugs (that didn't even used to be illegal), the scandals and the sexuality have always been with us. We just assume they are worse now than in the past because we weren't around in the past and have a Leave it to Beaver perspective on the world before our time.

There has been bad stuff in our country for a long, long time. Now, we just have internet to cumulate it and deliver it to our fingertips at a moment's notice.

I'm sorry, you've just touched on a very big gripe of mine -- that being the "good old days" philosophy that is nostalgic for a byegone era that is largely comprised of romantic fiction. We've always had problems with social issues in this country, and they were certainly a lot worse then than now. Sure, some people are upset that people can be gay or have sex before marriage (which happened all of the time in the past as well, even if it never happened on black and white TV shows), but on the real issues that really mean something, we are WAY more moral than we have ever been in the past.

Discrimination is becoming taboo, even among the most conservative in our society.

The poor in our country are now (somewhat ironically) fat ... they aren't starving to death as they had in the past.

Violent crime has been trending downward since the early 90s. Even abortion is trending downwards during that same period of time (as a % of population).

These are all, in my mind, signs of a big improvement in truly moral behavior. With it, people have more freedoms to do what they want without shame, harrassment, or death, and I also view that as an advancement of moral behavior. The only way I can see somebody making an argument that our morals are declining is if one thinks that people should be forced to live their lives like they (those making the "immoral" argument) think God wants them to live based on their selective reading of poorly translated ancient texts as opposed to measuring the real and true morality of the way those people treat others (which is the only thing that I think should be important to anyone). As I've said before, if a person's actions hurt nobody else, then I don't think anyone should label them as immoral. I also understand that many people disagree with me on that point ... including all radical Muslims.

I have to disagree with you on this point. Recent statistics show that violent crimes, and in particular murder, are actually back on the rise. With the exception of a few larger cities such as Seattle, violent crimes, most noteably those asscoiated with drugs, are trending upward. I just recently left the State of Montana where I was employed with the Department of Health and Human Services (my wife is still employed there). The population of our state that is in need of, or currently using, mental health services, drug & alcohol rehab (in particular, meth), and other public health services is at a staggering all-time high. And it does not appear to be slowing down anytime soon. We do not have the means to adequately fund this trend. This is in direct correlation with our lifestyle - where do what we want, when we want, and the circumstances to be suffered, of course, are not our fault!

Ponycat · Post by **Ponycat** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 9:47 am

DaCats wrote:
Bay Area Cat wrote:The lawlessness, the drugs (that didn't even used to be illegal), the scandals and the sexuality have always been with us. We just assume they are worse now than in the past because we weren't around in the past and have a Leave it to Beaver perspective on the world before our time.

There has been bad stuff in our country for a long, long time. Now, we just have internet to cumulate it and deliver it to our fingertips at a moment's notice.

I'm sorry, you've just touched on a very big gripe of mine -- that being the "good old days" philosophy that is nostalgic for a byegone era that is largely comprised of romantic fiction. We've always had problems with social issues in this country, and they were certainly a lot worse then than now. Sure, some people are upset that people can be gay or have sex before marriage (which happened all of the time in the past as well, even if it never happened on black and white TV shows), but on the real issues that really mean something, we are WAY more moral than we have ever been in the past.

Discrimination is becoming taboo, even among the most conservative in our society.

The poor in our country are now (somewhat ironically) fat ... they aren't starving to death as they had in the past.

Violent crime has been trending downward since the early 90s. Even abortion is trending downwards during that same period of time (as a % of population).

These are all, in my mind, signs of a big improvement in truly moral behavior. With it, people have more freedoms to do what they want without shame, harrassment, or death, and I also view that as an advancement of moral behavior. The only way I can see somebody making an argument that our morals are declining is if one thinks that people should be forced to live their lives like they (those making the "immoral" argument) think God wants them to live based on their selective reading of poorly translated ancient texts as opposed to measuring the real and true morality of the way those people treat others (which is the only thing that I think should be important to anyone). As I've said before, if a person's actions hurt nobody else, then I don't think anyone should label them as immoral. I also understand that many people disagree with me on that point ... including all radical Muslims.
I have to disagree with you on this point. Recent statistics show that violent crimes, and in particular murder, are actually back on the rise. With the exception of a few larger cities such as Seattle, violent crimes, most noteably those asscoiated with drugs, are trending upward. I just recently left the State of Montana where I was employed with the Department of Health and Human Services (my wife is still employed there). The population of our state that is in need of, or currently using, mental health services, drug & alcohol rehab (in particular, meth), and other public health services is at a staggering all-time high. And it does not appear to be slowing down anytime soon. We do not have the means to adequately fund this trend. This is in direct correlation with our lifestyle - where do what we want, when we want, and the circumstances to be suffered, of course, are not our fault!

Crime is about the same maybe going up some, but Violent crime has been going down since the mid 80's.

Post by **SonomaCat** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 9:48 am

catsrback76 wrote:On the note about " poorly translated ancient texts" you need to do your research better. If you're talking about the biblical texts, you are talking about the most widely researched, critiqued, cross examined historical documents we have on record. The problem isn't the translator teams who "got it wrong" it is that you simply don't like what they say. I understand that you don't like what they say, but to suggest that the translations are wrong or poor is very weak Brad.

I have no problem with what they say. I just have a problem with the way some people interpret them. And since there are a wide variety of translations and interpretations of them, I'd assume you'd have to agree with that statement.

This goes the same for the Bible, the Koran and any other text.

Post by **SonomaCat** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 10:43 am

Just so we can talk apples to apples, can rebecca and/or catsrback76 give me a list of specific examples of actions that people are exhibiting in our current time that are more prevelent than in the past (trending towards oblivion) that are a direct result of a lack of God-ordained morals (and are outside of the realm of universally recognized "right" and "wrong")? Once we have a list, then I can respond to each one, and we can probably find some common ground.

Post by **SonomaCat** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 11:30 am

Ponycat wrote:Crime is about the same maybe going up some, but Violent crime has been going down since the mid 80's.

Cool chart and stats that backs up the statement:

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/viort.htm

catsrback76 · Post by **catsrback76** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 9:27 am

Bay Area Cat wrote:Just so we can talk apples to apples, can rebecca and/or catsrback76 give me a list of specific examples of actions that people are exhibiting in our current time that are more prevelent than in the past (trending towards oblivion) that are a direct result of a lack of God-ordained morals (and are outside of the realm of universally recognized "right" and "wrong")? Once we have a list, then I can respond to each one, and we can probably find some common ground.

As much as I hate "lists" when "quantifying" heart issues and personal behaviors, here are a couple of important moral issues that are symptoms of the greater problems.

--abortion takes 1 child out of every 3 born
--pornography is a 12 Billion dollar industry in the US. That income is more than all the professional sports franchises combined. IT is greater than the combined yearly revenunes of ABC, NBC and CBS which bring in a TOTAL of 6 Billion. Porn doubles their intakes.
-- Child porn is a 3 Billion dollar industry in the US and is the fastest growing segment of the industry.
Need I go further?
--Current divorce rates are hovering at 50% for all first time marriages. ( since the 1960's divorce has become epidemic in destroying the structure of the home and family)
-- 80 % of all second marriages failing as well
--The disintegrating nuclear family that has resulted from the current divorce climate producing blended families of yours, mine and ours.
--though nice to see "violent crimes" on a temporary decline white collar crimes are on the rise and bagging headlines almost daily.
--The current drug usage producing an epidemic in almost every state where meth is viewed as the largest blight on the cultural landscape. Law enforcement locally complains that they don't have enough officers to tackle the problem. Prisons are filled with criminals who most often are tied to abuse issues. That does not take into account the other drugs consummed beyond meth.
-- the largest segment of video gaming sales comes from violence based gaming. The top seller is "Grand Theft Auto"

etc. etc. Again, I don't like lists because to open the eye and see with it is all you need to do.

Brad the Culture we are currently living in is wonderfully decribed by Steve Turner's " Creed".

"We believe in Marxfreudandarwin.
We believe everything is OK
as long as you don't hurt anyone,
to the best of your definition of hurt,
and to the best of your knowledge.

We believe in sex before, during, and after marriage.
We believe in the therapy of sin.
We believe that adultery is fun.
We believe that sodomy is OK.
We believe that taboos are taboo.

We believe everythings getting better
despite evidence to the contrary.
The evidence must be investigated
And you can prove anything with evidence.

We believe there's something to horoscopes,
UFO's and bent spoons;
Jesus was a good man just like Buddha,
Mohammed, and ourselves.
He was a good moral teacher although we think
His good morals were bad.

We believe that all religions are basically the same--
at least the one that we read was.
They all believe in love and goodness.
They only differ on matters of creation, sin, heaven, hell, God and salvation.

We believe that after death comes The Nothing
Because when you ask the dead what happens they say nothing.
If death is not the end, if the dead have lied, then it's compensatory
heaven for all, excepting of course Hitler, Stalin, and Genghis Khan.

We believe in Masters and Johnson.
What's selected is average.
What's average is normal.
What's normal is good.

We believe in total disarmament,
We believe there are direct links between warfare and bloodshed.
Americans should beat their guns into tractors and the Russians would
be sure to follow.

We believe that man is essentially good.
It's only his behavior that lets him down.
This is the fault of society.
Society is the fault of conditions.
Conditions are the fault of society.

We believe that each man must find the truth that is right for him.
Reality will adapt accordingly.
The universe will readjust.
History will alter.
We believe there is no absolute truth excepting the truth
that there is no absolute truth.

We believe in the rejection of creeds,
and the flowering of individual thought."

P.S. " If chance be the Father of all flesh, disaster is his rainbow in the sky, and when you hear...
"State of Emergency! Sniper kills Ten! Troops on Rampage! Whites go looting! Bomb Blasts School!
It is but the sound of man worshipping his maker."

catsrback76 · Post by **catsrback76** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 9:30 am

Bay Area Cat wrote:
catsrback76 wrote:On the note about " poorly translated ancient texts" you need to do your research better. If you're talking about the biblical texts, you are talking about the most widely researched, critiqued, cross examined historical documents we have on record. The problem isn't the translator teams who "got it wrong" it is that you simply don't like what they say. I understand that you don't like what they say, but to suggest that the translations are wrong or poor is very weak Brad.
I have no problem with what they say. I just have a problem with the way some people interpret them. And since there are a wide variety of translations and interpretations of them, I'd assume you'd have to agree with that statement.

This goes the same for the Bible, the Koran and any other text.

As you asked for a list of evidences regarding moral decay, I'd like a list from you on the texts that are "interpreted" wrongly or poorly in the Bible. I don't have any source materials on the Koran but I do on the Bible.

catsrback76 · Post by **catsrback76** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 9:31 am

BTW: good job on the BB pool

. Also, I do enjoy the dialogue you bring.

Post by **SonomaCat** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 11:02 am

catsrback76 wrote:
Bay Area Cat wrote:
catsrback76 wrote:On the note about " poorly translated ancient texts" you need to do your research better. If you're talking about the biblical texts, you are talking about the most widely researched, critiqued, cross examined historical documents we have on record. The problem isn't the translator teams who "got it wrong" it is that you simply don't like what they say. I understand that you don't like what they say, but to suggest that the translations are wrong or poor is very weak Brad.
I have no problem with what they say. I just have a problem with the way some people interpret them. And since there are a wide variety of translations and interpretations of them, I'd assume you'd have to agree with that statement.

This goes the same for the Bible, the Koran and any other text.
As you asked for a list of evidences regarding moral decay, I'd like a list from you on the texts that are "interpreted" wrongly or poorly in the Bible. I don't have any source materials on the Koran but I do on the Bible.

Well, in short, the fact that people interpret it as a literal history is a bit disturbing. The story of Jesus exists in Greek and Egyptian texts predating the Bible by hundreds of years in virtually the exact same form -- only attributing the stories to their own characters (Osiris for the Egyptians and Dionysius for the Greeks). The early critics of the Christian sect pointed this out often, and the only response from the new church was that "The Devil planted those stories in the past to confuse us."

I think the philosophy laid out in the New Testament (and, to a lesser extent, the Koran) is, for the most part, great stuff. It's just not literal history ... and it's scary when people make otherwise irrational decisions in our modern times based on parables written two thousand years ago by theologians inspired by themes from Greek and Egyptian mythology. The themes are great ... but pulling a specific quote out and saying that it is the literal word of an omnipotent God and should be followed without question or skepticism is sometimes dangerous ... see Spanish Inquisition ... or Pat Robertson.

I'm sure you're already familiar with this work, but if you want more details on the pre-history of the Bible, see "The Jesus Mysteries."

Post by **SonomaCat** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 11:26 am

catsrback76 wrote:
Bay Area Cat wrote:Just so we can talk apples to apples, can rebecca and/or catsrback76 give me a list of specific examples of actions that people are exhibiting in our current time that are more prevelent than in the past (trending towards oblivion) that are a direct result of a lack of God-ordained morals (and are outside of the realm of universally recognized "right" and "wrong")? Once we have a list, then I can respond to each one, and we can probably find some common ground.

As much as I hate "lists" when "quantifying" heart issues and personal behaviors, here are a couple of important moral issues that are symptoms of the greater problems.

--abortion takes 1 child out of every 3 born
--pornography is a 12 Billion dollar industry in the US. That income is more than all the professional sports franchises combined. IT is greater than the combined yearly revenunes of ABC, NBC and CBS which bring in a TOTAL of 6 Billion. Porn doubles their intakes.
-- Child porn is a 3 Billion dollar industry in the US and is the fastest growing segment of the industry.
Need I go further?
--Current divorce rates are hovering at 50% for all first time marriages. ( since the 1960's divorce has become epidemic in destroying the structure of the home and family)
-- 80 % of all second marriages failing as well
--The disintegrating nuclear family that has resulted from the current divorce climate producing blended families of yours, mine and ours.
--though nice to see "violent crimes" on a temporary decline white collar crimes are on the rise and bagging headlines almost daily.
--The current drug usage producing an epidemic in almost every state where meth is viewed as the largest blight on the cultural landscape. Law enforcement locally complains that they don't have enough officers to tackle the problem. Prisons are filled with criminals who most often are tied to abuse issues. That does not take into account the other drugs consummed beyond meth.
-- the largest segment of video gaming sales comes from violence based gaming. The top seller is "Grand Theft Auto"

etc. etc. Again, I don't like lists because to open the eye and see with it is all you need to do.

Brad the Culture we are currently living in is wonderfully decribed by Steve Turner's " Creed".

"We believe in Marxfreudandarwin.
We believe everything is OK
as long as you don't hurt anyone,
to the best of your definition of hurt,
and to the best of your knowledge.

We believe in sex before, during, and after marriage.
We believe in the therapy of sin.
We believe that adultery is fun.
We believe that sodomy is OK.
We believe that taboos are taboo.

We believe everythings getting better
despite evidence to the contrary.
The evidence must be investigated
And you can prove anything with evidence.

We believe there's something to horoscopes,
UFO's and bent spoons;
Jesus was a good man just like Buddha,
Mohammed, and ourselves.
He was a good moral teacher although we think
His good morals were bad.

We believe that all religions are basically the same--
at least the one that we read was.
They all believe in love and goodness.
They only differ on matters of creation, sin, heaven, hell, God and salvation.

We believe that after death comes The Nothing
Because when you ask the dead what happens they say nothing.
If death is not the end, if the dead have lied, then it's compensatory
heaven for all, excepting of course Hitler, Stalin, and Genghis Khan.

We believe in Masters and Johnson.
What's selected is average.
What's average is normal.
What's normal is good.

We believe in total disarmament,
We believe there are direct links between warfare and bloodshed.
Americans should beat their guns into tractors and the Russians would
be sure to follow.

We believe that man is essentially good.
It's only his behavior that lets him down.
This is the fault of society.
Society is the fault of conditions.
Conditions are the fault of society.

We believe that each man must find the truth that is right for him.
Reality will adapt accordingly.
The universe will readjust.
History will alter.
We believe there is no absolute truth excepting the truth
that there is no absolute truth.

We believe in the rejection of creeds,
and the flowering of individual thought."

P.S. " If chance be the Father of all flesh, disaster is his rainbow in the sky, and when you hear...
"State of Emergency! Sniper kills Ten! Troops on Rampage! Whites go looting! Bomb Blasts School!
It is but the sound of man worshipping his maker."

Abortion -- I admit that it is a troubling concept. At the same time, the rate of abortions is dropping (on a per capita basis), thanks presumably to a better understanding of birth control. We need more birth control options and more effective options, including the access to the day-after thing. These things would drive the abortion rate even lower.

Porn -- I don't know if I trust those numbers (that's roughly $60 per person in the U.S. if you assume 200M adults in the U.S.) But even if it is right, I have no problem with that. There's nothing wrong with adults enjoying sex. In fact, some people even think that porn spices up married sexual relationships.

Child porn -- I totally call BS on that number. Can you provide a source? First of all, it's impossible to quantify it as it is illegal, so I assume that number was manufactured for sheer shock value by a group who wants us to think the problem is bigger than it is (suggesting that the average American spends $15 on child porn doesn't pass the sniff test). Child porn is definitely wrong, and the internet has made stuff like this easier to get. Does this mean that there are more pervs out there now than there was at any other time in history? No. It just means that our distribution channels are better now. This should and is being aggressively policed.

Divorce -- Are you aware that the divorce rates are highest in states in the Bible belt, and lowest in the least religious parts of the country? In this respect, religion is often a detriment to successful marriages as it tells people they can't have sex until they are married, so they marry the first person they want to have sex with (usually a high school sweetheart), and then they end up getting divorced. The people who have the statistical best chances of not getting divorced are those who wait until later in life to get married, and presumably have lots of premaritial sex beforehand (preferably with effective birth control).

And in many cases of divorce, it is the sign of the right decision being made. The wrong decision was the original marriage. Divorces are often a sign of bad judgments (or lack of enough information) in getting married in the first place. And in other cases, situations arise that are beyond people's control. Staying together simply to stay together, even if it makes everyone miserable, is not a good answer, either. But outside of ditzy celebrity types, I don't think many people are getting a divorce because it is easy or because they lack morals. They are just making the best decision they can among a sea of very bad options. The old days of staying together regardless just led to a lot of very, very miserable people (and a lot of abused women trapped in marriages they couldn't escape).

Meth -- Yes, people should avoid taking meth. It's bad stuff. And it was bad stuff when the Army gave it to the GIs during WWII as pep pills and addicted many of them, and it was bad in the 50s when it was widely used as a diet pill for housewives, and addicted many of them. People should only take drugs (including alcohol) if they can do it without becoming addicted. This is not a new problem by any means ... as witnessed by the prohibitionist movement of the early 1900s.

Video games -- I find them annoying, and I wish more kids would read books instead. But we must keep in mind that even books have been dismissed (generally by the church) as evil diversions of entertainment pleasure for a couple thousand years now. It's all relative. I certainly don't consider video games to be a moral flaw, however.

The thing you posted from Steve Turner is quite interesting. So a virtual summary of what he said:

Sex is bad (especially sodomy -- apparently blow jobs are evil ... he just lost credibility as a guy with that statement ... and the large % of women in the world who can't orgasm via vaginal stimulation and require clitoral stimulation must really dig guys who think that only vaginal intercourse is an allowable form of sexual expression).

War is good.

Thinking is bad.

Using hyperbole to create straw man arguments to frame your philosophical opponents are extremists is good.

I have a feeling I wouldn't be able to have a beer with this guy.

Post by **SonomaCat** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 12:00 pm

catsrback76 wrote:BTW: good job on the BB pool . Also, I do enjoy the dialogue you bring.

I'll have to check the standings -- I generally do okay in the early rounds because I pick a lot of upsets, but I almost always blow up shortly thereafter.

I enjoy your posts a great deal -- they challenge me to think through things from a different perspective, which I think is the single best aspect of the board like this (the political/philospophical board).

iaafan · Post by **iaafan** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 12:35 pm

How about disinformation? Of course, that's impossible. It's like the Dutch Boy putting his finger in the holes in the dike. Just ask poor BAC after that response. Maybe we're in the Disinformation Age? I just read -- and this isn't hard to believe -- that people who watch FOX news are less informed on current events than people who don't watch the news at all. Which probably just means many people hear what they want to hear.

Post by **SonomaCat** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 1:06 pm

iaafan wrote:How about disinformation? Of course, that's impossible. It's like the Dutch Boy putting his finger in the holes in the dike. Just ask poor BAC after that response. Maybe we're in the Disinformation Age? I just read -- and this isn't hard to believe -- that people who watch FOX news are less informed on current events than people who don't watch the news at all. Which probably just means many people hear what they want to hear.

Just to clarify, I'd like to go on record as being morally opposed to boys under the age of eighteen putting their fingers in dikes. Above 18, I am against it unless there is explicit permission from the dike.

I believe these kinds of acts are what nearly destoyed the Netherlands during Hans Christian Anderson's day.

I am, however, in support of "Dikes on Bikes."

EDIT: Just realized they (dykes and dikes) are spelled differently. That kind of ruins it. My bad.

catsrback76 · Post by **catsrback76** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 2:46 pm

Bay Area Cat wrote:
catsrback76 wrote:
Bay Area Cat wrote:.

Porn -- I don't know if I trust those numbers (that's roughly $60 per person in the U.S. if you assume 200M adults in the U.S.) But even if it is right, I have no problem with that. There's nothing wrong with adults enjoying sex. In fact, some people even think that porn spices up married sexual relationships.

Child porn -- I totally call BS on that number. Can you provide a source? First of all, it's impossible to quantify it as it is illegal, so I assume that number was manufactured for sheer shock value by a group who wants us to think the problem is bigger than it is (suggesting that the average American spends $15 on child porn doesn't pass the sniff test). Child porn is definitely wrong, and the internet has made stuff like this easier to get. Does this mean that there are more pervs out there now than there was at any other time in history? No. It just means that our distribution channels are better now. This should and is being aggressively policed.

Just a minute to only give you a link on these points

http://internet-filter-review.toptenrev ... stics.html

Post by **SonomaCat** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 2:59 pm

Ahh. Thanks for the link. The guy is in the business of promoting internet filters, so he does have some good motivation for pushing those scary numbers. Unfortunately, he doesn't describe how those numbers were determined/created. If the cash spent on child porn was known, they would presumably have about $3 B worth of transactions as evidence to arrest people for buying it. Otherwise, it appears to be a wild-assed guess ... on the high side for marketing purposes.

As to the regular porn numbers ... I see zero harm in it (outside of people viewing porn at work -- that seems way high. I've heard of people doing it, but it's rare ... and many companies monitor this sort of thing and fire the few people who do).

iaafan · Post by **iaafan** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 5:19 pm

Bay Area Cat wrote:
iaafan wrote:How about disinformation? Of course, that's impossible. It's like the Dutch Boy putting his finger in the holes in the dike. Just ask poor BAC after that response. Maybe we're in the Disinformation Age? I just read -- and this isn't hard to believe -- that people who watch FOX news are less informed on current events than people who don't watch the news at all. Which probably just means many people hear what they want to hear.
Just to clarify, I'd like to go on record as being morally opposed to boys under the age of eighteen putting their fingers in dikes. Above 18, I am against it unless there is explicit permission from the dike.

I believe these kinds of acts are what nearly destoyed the Netherlands during Hans Christian Anderson's day.

I am, however, in support of "Dikes on Bikes."

EDIT: Just realized they (dykes and dikes) are spelled differently. That kind of ruins it. My bad.

The actor Penis Von Lesbian (aka Dick Van Dyke) might've liked that one. dike/dyke it's a little confusing.