Catholic ? You will have to settle for Monday Night Footbal

Post by **SonomaCat** » Fri May 12, 2006 2:34 pm

You suggested the following:

- That children of atheist parents would not do charity work

- That Hitler's act were consistent with that of an Atheist, but not of a Christian.
- "That [the Holocaust] sure seems like the work of an Atheist"
- "I am saying that Hitler's actions were more likely those of an Atheist than a true Christian."

- You sarcastically posted "I am sure your atheists friends are really good people. Many atheists are truly humanitarians like you." It was quite obvious what your intent was with that statement.

And if you truly accepted the fact that the Catholic Church and Catholics themselves, had done some really bad things in the past, how would you reconcile that understanding with an assertion that Hitler's actions were that of an Atheist, and could not have been the acts of someone who was Christian? Like I've mentioned, that kind of assumption can only come from a lack of acceptance of the realities we have seen in both our history as well as present day.

Your comments left me with little doubt that you think that people who are atheists (which does not include me, by the way, although you did assume I was) are lesser moral beings, and more likely to commit murderous acts, than anyone on your "team." If this is not your true belief, you had opportunities to clear that up, but you are also more than welcome to do so now and I would happily stand corrected.

G.W.Bush · Post by **G.W.Bush** » Fri May 12, 2006 3:08 pm

Bay Area Cat wrote:You suggested the following:

- That children of atheist parents would not do charity work

- That Hitler's act were consistent with that of an Atheist, but not of a Christian.
- "That [the Holocaust] sure seems like the work of an Atheist"
- "I am saying that Hitler's actions were more likely those of an Atheist than a true Christian."

- You sarcastically posted "I am sure your atheists friends are really good people. Many atheists are truly humanitarians like you." It was quite obvious what your intent was with that statement.

And if you truly accepted the fact that the Catholic Church and Catholics themselves, had done some really bad things in the past, how would you reconcile that understanding with an assertion that Hitler's actions were that of an Atheist, and could not have been the acts of someone who was Christian? Like I've mentioned, that kind of assumption can only come from a lack of acceptance of the realities we have seen in both our history as well as present day.

Your comments left me with little doubt that you think that people who are atheists (which does not include me, by the way, although you did assume I was) are lesser moral beings, and more likely to commit murderous acts, than anyone on your "team." If this is not your true belief, you had opportunities to clear that up, but you are also more than welcome to do so now and I would happily stand corrected.

You suggested that wars occur because of men doing their perceived work of God. I simply gave you two men in recent history who began wars and committed genocide that were not doing the work of God, and suggested the work was done because they had no faith in God. You have made it seem that all wars are begun because of religious differences, and using your thought processes since these men were not doing the work of God we must label them in some manner so I labeled them atheists; therefore they were doing the work of atheists. Of course you went and skew what I wrote to fit your argument- like you had done in a number of your previous posts.
Many of my posts are tongue in cheek, and I am sorry that your wit is unable to pick up on such subtleties.

Post by **SonomaCat** » Fri May 12, 2006 3:17 pm

Right.... Although your Atheist comments began well before any discussion of wars....

You can still just tell me if your true feelings on the question are not what I suggested. At the end of the day, that's the only point I care about -- respecting other people as people even if you disagree with their chosen ideology and judging everyone based on their actions as opposed to their label. If you agree with that, then great. Otherwise, I guess I will just say that everything I said was tongue-in-cheek as well, and I can't believe that your wit was so lacking that you couldn't pick up on my subtleties. In other words, I'll punt your punt back to you.

Ponycat · Post by **Ponycat** » Mon May 15, 2006 1:17 pm

Sorry to get this thread started again but I finally had the time to completely read through it. So a couple things

"Athiests" who started wars/genocide. You guys forgot a couple, Pol Pot and the former Romanian commuist leader (name?) on top of Mao, Stalin and Communism as a whole. On a side note am I the only one the hears John Lennon's song "Imagine" and thinks "yeah great idea John its called communism and doesn't work."

Back the to the thread. As far and Hitler and the Jews go, my understanding from what I've read is that it is generally agreed upon by scholars that Hitler wasn't going after Jews as a religion but the Jewish race, and justified this for blaming Jews for all the bad things that had happened to Germany since WWI. He used negative steriotypes to stir this pot but they weren't what would be considered religious steriotypes (I don't recall seeing any speeches where Hitler said the Jews killed Jesus). Same for how he went after Gypsies and Homosexuals. Nothing to do with religion. Just a point of clarification.

Wars started not because of religion - WWI, WWII, French and Indian War, American Revolutionary war, American Civil War, Spanish American War, War of 1812, Korean War (although athiests did start it

), every conquest or attempted conquest of the Mongols, Falklan Island Wars, The French Revolution, Napolianic Wars, Vietnam (both French and American involvement in the 20th Century), Native American Extermination, Aboriginal Extermination, etc etc. My point is that IMHO Greed has started more wars then religion although religion often is used to justify the Greed. I do agree that the number of people killed in the name of religion is pretty disturbing, but the Catholic church is pretty Greedy.

Lastly, the whole prove religion is true or not thing, I don't recall Jesus ever trying to prove he was right and that others were wrong, I'm pretty sure he was only concerned with saving individual souls and helping people to live a life that would please his father, whethere those people belived in him or not. Maybe I'm wrong here and if I am I guess I'll have to reread and rethink some things.

Again sorry for not letting this die

briannell · Post by **briannell** » Mon May 15, 2006 3:21 pm

agree with eric that what I know of Hitler (man killed like 80% of my grandpa leon's family in the camps) he was after the Jewish race, not religion. he had a tremendious hatred of himself being born of a Jewish mother, and just in general really F'd up. he was evil, not every agnostic is evil, nor are all confessed Christians loving and kind.

as for those starting to sling it back and forth on the thread those confessed christians should remember "the wise of heart is called a man of discernment, and pleasant speech increases persuasiveness"prvbs 16 v21 and "pleasant words are like honeycomb, sweetness to the soul and health to the body. "pvbs 17 v 24

love the debates on this thread, but there's no need for personal attacks. we are all mature enough to not do that ( well not Bearbac, but this isn't smack) Those waving the "I am a christian" flag need to heed that your actions truly line up with the word or i'll have to start Bible thumping again

bozbobcat · Post by **bozbobcat** » Mon May 15, 2006 5:45 pm

I think Hitler also hated Jews also due to some events in his early life. First off, he was very close to his mother and when he was a teenager, she died. She was treated by Jewish doctors and Hitler blamed them for not saving his mother, which wasn't really possible. Also, Hitler was an artist, but was rejected from the art academy in Vienna. He blamed the Jews for this one, too. And the settlement with the Treaty of Versailles was harsh and so on. I'm sorry if this is off topic, but I wanted to add a little historical information.

DaCats · Post by **DaCats** » Mon May 15, 2006 11:25 pm

I don't post much out here, but this topic has forced my hand. I have Christian views, evolution views, atheist views. No, I am not a fence-sitter, rather I try to logically reason things out. I believe God created Adam & Eve, but not necessarily in the form you see man today. A quick look at man immediately suggests we are related to other animals in some form. I believe in a higher being, but still have many questions. If God created man, who created the dinosaurs? If there is no higher power, why had man been so fixated on it since the dawn of time? Will Barry Bonds ever hit #714, and then eventually confess his sins? (just playin' y'all). I don't consider myself "religious", but rather one who has faith. Faith in the fact man was put here to serve a higher purpose. We are the most intelligent of all the animal species; we were built to think and reason and act logically. To throw Christianity vs. Atheism in the discussion on wars/Hitler/Stalin is ridiculous! Whether you believe in a higher power or not, the fact of the matter is that pure evil exists among us. Hitler, Stalin, Ghengis Khan, Charles Manson, Jeffeery Dahlmer, Sadaam Huessin, etc. are forms of pure evil. Yes, they can use reasoning of religion, ethnicity, or race to wage wars. But in the end, we shouldn't be arguing whether or not Osama Bin Laden is waging a "holy war" but we should be united in not allowing him to win. Because if a guy like him is allowed to succeed, he's not hurting just Christians, he's hurting mankind. To kill in the name of religion is wrong. To kill in the name of race is wrong. To kill in the name of greed is wrong. How did this thread of the difference between Christanity vs. Atheism evolve into "You killed more people for beliefs than we did". How childish. Use the brain that God/Allah/Buddah/aliens/evolution gave you!