A good America

[crazycat]

Not sure who this guy is, but I believe he is a former student or teacher at this school.

Rob Cornell's address to Corvallis High School Class of 2006:

Good Evening and a Spartan welcome; bienvenidos to all. I am deeply moved and honored that you have chosen me to share this milestone in your life journey. The moments we have shared, as students, teachers and friends have shaped and defined who we are … and I love who you are. In you, I see warmth, compassion, strength, integrity, playfulness and joy. In you, I see hope. I only wish we, my generation, could have given you an easier road to travel. We owe you an apology for leaving you wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, global warming, a massive national debt, an Earth that has been plundered, a toxic environment, corrupt politics, corporate greed and an increasingly polarized country.

The French historian Alexis de Tocqueville, a champion of liberty and democracy in the early 1800s, once said: “America is great because she is good. If America ever ceases to be good, America will cease to be great.”

Consider if you will the following points:

Would a good America have a policy of pre-emptive war? War is a brutal and barbaric way to solve a problem. Unprovoked, we attacked a sovereign country with the headline “shock and awe.” That headline should have read “death and destruction.” One of the latest justifications of the war is “We are fighting terrorists there so we don’t have to fight them here.” That means we Americans are using Iraqis as human shields. Conservative estimates put the Iraqi civilian death toll at about 40,000 for our war.

Would a good America have policies that ignore longstanding international laws such as the Geneva Conventions — policies that condone torture and extraordinary rendition and allow lengthy imprisonment without rights?

Would a good America, the land of freedom and equality, deny that freedom based on race, gender or sexual preference?

Would a good America allow wealth to accumulate in the hands of a few while many go hungry — and then pass tax cuts and laws that strengthen this disturbing trend?

Politicians and corporate spokespersons argue that the average American is doing very well. As a mathematician, I cringe when I hear the word “average” used in this way. If you were standing with one leg immersed in a bucket of liquid oxygen and the other in a roaring fire, a statistician would tell you that, on average, the temperature was just fine.

Look — Sean Hunter just pulled out his calculator. I can see him thinking, ‘Let’s see ... If we consider the specific gravity and density of oxygen at 1 atmospheric pressure, Mr. Cornell, that average would …’ Sean, put away your calculator … The point is, there is rising inequality in American’s economic well-being. The top 10 percent of Americans own about 70 percent of the nation’s wealth while the bottom 50 percent — one half of America — owns only 3 percent. Sarah McLachlan, in her song “World on Fire,” sings “The more we take, the less we become. The fortune of one man means less for some.”

Would a good America support maximizing profits from our planet’s resources regardless of environmental degradation? Corporations export factories and jobs to Third World countries, exploiting workers and causing great harm to local environments, at times receiving tax breaks for doing so. Corporate farming practices may keep food prices low, but cheap food has a price. That price is being paid by the horrible suffering of animals and the catastrophic damage done to your planet’s land and seas.

Would a good America have a government that seems to be more interested in serving the needs of big business than the needs of the individual? The number of registered lobbyists in Washington, D.C., increased from 16,342 in 2000 to 34,785 last year. That is 65 lobbyists for each member of Congress. No wonder oil companies are given huge new tax breaks at a time of record profits and credit card companies are helping to write new bankruptcy laws.

Enron could not have perpetrated its energy scams without the help of new legislation enacted by our elected officials. Many agencies, created to protect public interests, are now headed by former industry lobbyists.

Has America ceased to be great? It’s a question worth asking and a discussion that needs to take place. Alexis de Tocqueville also observed that it is easier for people to accept a simple lie than a complex truth.

In this day of the 30-second sound bite, you are fed many simple statements. You must decide their degrees of truth. Quite often, these statements take the form of “talking points” repeated over and over and over and over … Most minds like these short, often repeated phrases. They require little effort and often reinforce our belief that America is good.

What are the complex truths? I am not telling. Finding them is your last homework assignment, and it is not an easy one. The media, by all accounts, is controlled by 4 or 5 major corporations. The next battle — one that is currently being fought — is over the freedom and flow of information on the Internet. I hope you will seek an in-depth source of news that pursues truth and presents all sides of any issue. Only then can you decide for yourself — and this will take much longer than 30 seconds — what parts of America are good and what parts need to be fixed.

I’ve always told my students that the most important thing they can take from my class is confidence in their ability to solve problems. The solution to any problem, regardless of how insurmountable it may seem, begins with the smallest step, the smallest of beginnings. Take that step and see where it leads.

I have painted for you a world in crisis, but it is not a world without hope. Crisis is opportunity. Even the smallest moment of your lives is an opportunity for you to shape the world around you. In the words of Margaret Mead, “Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.”

The way in which you live your lives impacts the world every day. You must make conscious, informed and healthy choices with an awareness of how those choices affect the people and environment that surrounds you.

Be an educated consumer. Eating local organic foods and walking or riding your bike more will not only contribute to the solution of several crises we are facing, but will lead to better health.

Take an active part in your government. Be an engaged voter and citizen. Know the issues. Give voice to your concerns. Participate in civil disobedience when necessary. It’s your country. Don’t accept the argument “That’s just the way things are done.”

There may be great sorrow in the world today, but there is also great joy. Each of us has the ability to find peace within ourselves. Meditate, pray or find another way to have quiet reflective moments. Express yourself creatively. Find work that feeds your heart and soul as well as your pocketbook. Math is not the most important part of your life. Breathing is. Learn to breathe.

In closing, I’d like to share a brief story about Mahatma Gandhi: In one of his many travels, he was asked by a reporter at a train station if he had any message he would like to share with his people. He did not hesitate as he replied “My life is my message.”

May your life be a message of love, joy and peace.

Thank you.

I love you.

[GOKATS]

Not sure who this guy is, but I believe he is a former student or teacher at this school.

Rob Cornell's address to Corvallis High School Class of 2006:

Good Evening and a Spartan welcome; bienvenidos to all. I am deeply moved and honored that you have chosen me to share this milestone in your life journey. The moments we have shared, as students, teachers and friends have shaped and defined who we are … and I love who you are. In you, I see warmth, compassion, strength, integrity, playfulness and joy. In you, I see hope. I only wish we, my generation, could have given you an easier road to travel. We owe you an apology for leaving you wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, global warming, a massive national debt, an Earth that has been plundered, a toxic environment, corrupt politics, corporate greed and an increasingly polarized country.

The French historian Alexis de Tocqueville, a champion of liberty and democracy in the early 1800s, once said: “America is great because she is good. If America ever ceases to be good, America will cease to be great.”

Consider if you will the following points:

Would a good America have a policy of pre-emptive war? War is a brutal and barbaric way to solve a problem. Unprovoked, we attacked a sovereign country with the headline “shock and awe.” That headline should have read “death and destruction.” One of the latest justifications of the war is “We are fighting terrorists there so we don’t have to fight them here.” That means we Americans are using Iraqis as human shields. Conservative estimates put the Iraqi civilian death toll at about 40,000 for our war.

Would a good America have policies that ignore longstanding international laws such as the Geneva Conventions — policies that condone torture and extraordinary rendition and allow lengthy imprisonment without rights?

Would a good America, the land of freedom and equality, deny that freedom based on race, gender or sexual preference?

Would a good America allow wealth to accumulate in the hands of a few while many go hungry — and then pass tax cuts and laws that strengthen this disturbing trend?

Politicians and corporate spokespersons argue that the average American is doing very well. As a mathematician, I cringe when I hear the word “average” used in this way. If you were standing with one leg immersed in a bucket of liquid oxygen and the other in a roaring fire, a statistician would tell you that, on average, the temperature was just fine.

Look — Sean Hunter just pulled out his calculator. I can see him thinking, ‘Let’s see ... If we consider the specific gravity and density of oxygen at 1 atmospheric pressure, Mr. Cornell, that average would …’ Sean, put away your calculator … The point is, there is rising inequality in American’s economic well-being. The top 10 percent of Americans own about 70 percent of the nation’s wealth while the bottom 50 percent — one half of America — owns only 3 percent. Sarah McLachlan, in her song “World on Fire,” sings “The more we take, the less we become. The fortune of one man means less for some.”

Would a good America support maximizing profits from our planet’s resources regardless of environmental degradation? Corporations export factories and jobs to Third World countries, exploiting workers and causing great harm to local environments, at times receiving tax breaks for doing so. Corporate farming practices may keep food prices low, but cheap food has a price. That price is being paid by the horrible suffering of animals and the catastrophic damage done to your planet’s land and seas.

Would a good America have a government that seems to be more interested in serving the needs of big business than the needs of the individual? The number of registered lobbyists in Washington, D.C., increased from 16,342 in 2000 to 34,785 last year. That is 65 lobbyists for each member of Congress. No wonder oil companies are given huge new tax breaks at a time of record profits and credit card companies are helping to write new bankruptcy laws.

Enron could not have perpetrated its energy scams without the help of new legislation enacted by our elected officials. Many agencies, created to protect public interests, are now headed by former industry lobbyists.

Has America ceased to be great? It’s a question worth asking and a discussion that needs to take place. Alexis de Tocqueville also observed that it is easier for people to accept a simple lie than a complex truth.

In this day of the 30-second sound bite, you are fed many simple statements. You must decide their degrees of truth. Quite often, these statements take the form of “talking points” repeated over and over and over and over … Most minds like these short, often repeated phrases. They require little effort and often reinforce our belief that America is good.

What are the complex truths? I am not telling. Finding them is your last homework assignment, and it is not an easy one. The media, by all accounts, is controlled by 4 or 5 major corporations. The next battle — one that is currently being fought — is over the freedom and flow of information on the Internet. I hope you will seek an in-depth source of news that pursues truth and presents all sides of any issue. Only then can you decide for yourself — and this will take much longer than 30 seconds — what parts of America are good and what parts need to be fixed.

I’ve always told my students that the most important thing they can take from my class is confidence in their ability to solve problems. The solution to any problem, regardless of how insurmountable it may seem, begins with the smallest step, the smallest of beginnings. Take that step and see where it leads.

I have painted for you a world in crisis, but it is not a world without hope. Crisis is opportunity. Even the smallest moment of your lives is an opportunity for you to shape the world around you. In the words of Margaret Mead, “Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.”

The way in which you live your lives impacts the world every day. You must make conscious, informed and healthy choices with an awareness of how those choices affect the people and environment that surrounds you.

Be an educated consumer. Eating local organic foods and walking or riding your bike more will not only contribute to the solution of several crises we are facing, but will lead to better health.

Take an active part in your government. Be an engaged voter and citizen. Know the issues. Give voice to your concerns. Participate in civil disobedience when necessary. It’s your country. Don’t accept the argument “That’s just the way things are done.”

There may be great sorrow in the world today, but there is also great joy. Each of us has the ability to find peace within ourselves. Meditate, pray or find another way to have quiet reflective moments. Express yourself creatively. Find work that feeds your heart and soul as well as your pocketbook. Math is not the most important part of your life. Breathing is. Learn to breathe.

In closing, I’d like to share a brief story about Mahatma Gandhi: In one of his many travels, he was asked by a reporter at a train station if he had any message he would like to share with his people. He did not hesitate as he replied “My life is my message.”

May your life be a message of love, joy and peace.

Thank you.

I love you.

Well, no doubt as to his political slant.

[Ponycat]

He seems like he'd be a really fun and optimistic person to hang around with.

[couloir41]

go cats and ponycat...

if you have served congratulations and i salute you...

but i don't believe either of you have judging by your brief but cavalier remarkage...

i have a suggestion...since the body count for this particular war is past 2500 (us service personnel) why don't both of you put your asses on the line by enlisting....?????...with a little first hand experience killing people you may not be so quick to make goofy remarks about someone else's opinion...you might learn tolerance and respect for others opinions...

[lifeloyalsigmsu]

go cats and ponycat...

if you have served congratulations and i salute you...

but i don't believe either of you have judging by your brief but cavalier remarkage...

i have a suggestion...since the body count for this particular war is past 2500 (us service personnel) why don't both of you put your asses on the line by enlisting....?????...with a little first hand experience killing people you may not be so quick to make goofy remarks about someone else's opinion...you might learn tolerance and respect for others opinions...

So are you saying that you have no tolerance and respect for the first 2 posts made on this thread?

[rtb]

While he make make some good points and some really bad points, I hate to see a graduation speech that is fill so much political opinion. Leave the soap box at home and salute the kids graduating, inspire them.

[Cat Grad]

Hmmmm--on the one hand, the teach speaks of all the teacher union, liberal-point-out-all-that's-wrong with America we read in our textbooks and the media and yet he encourages the kids to learn to think for themselves? Oh boy...then, find out which corporations own the media and the internet and...wind up like Nixon? I know, Al Gore wasn't in the Army Signal Corps yet, so the internet hadn't been invented.

[iaafan]

I found it greatly inspiring. He's very optimistic in his opening paragraph, while also showing humility for his generation by pointing out its weaknesses. He's honest in saying the world needs help and it will be your job to get things done. He's thorough in backing up his quote by de Tocqueville with his points.
When he speaks of math and stats in relation to how numbers are being manipulated by politicians and corporate folks, he gives a different perspective on who we are and where we are as Americans.
He comes back to de Tocqueville by ASKING if the US has ceased to be great and explains why it's worth discussing. He encourages them to take part in their community and gov't.
Mostly he's just trying to show that we CAN talk about these things and actually wonder if we can't improve on what we're doing. And we can ask some tough questions of ourselves and our country. Maybe you don't agree with all the areas that he merely questions might need to be discussed, but you can't knock him for trying to point out to some high school grads that change can be brought about and that if they are discourage, there still is hope.
At the very least he energized the students and don't worry, I'm sure there were many who disagreed (many in the audience...moms and dads)with what he was doing.
He doesn't give the hum-drum, standard old "go out and make money" or "your family and your health are most important" speeches. His is a "there's actually something out there for you to do." It had to happen sometime.
Certainly you can't disagree that it'd be nice to have some like de Tocqueville say something wonderful like he did about America. Wouldn't it be nice to be looked at that way by the world again.

[iaafan]

go cats and ponycat...

if you have served congratulations and i salute you...

but i don't believe either of you have judging by your brief but cavalier remarkage...

i have a suggestion...since the body count for this particular war is past 2500 (us service personnel) why don't both of you put your asses on the line by enlisting....?????...with a little first hand experience killing people you may not be so quick to make goofy remarks about someone else's opinion...you might learn tolerance and respect for others opinions...

So are you saying that you have no tolerance and respect for the first 2 posts made on this thread?

Those comments and yours are just what Cornell was talking about when he said people are afraid to actually look into something with any depth. Instead you just choose to respond with a quick, easy answer for everything.

[GOKATS]

go cats and ponycat...

if you have served congratulations and i salute you...

but i don't believe either of you have judging by your brief but cavalier remarkage...

i have a suggestion...since the body count for this particular war is past 2500 (us service personnel) why don't both of you put your asses on the line by enlisting....?????...with a little first hand experience killing people you may not be so quick to make goofy remarks about someone else's opinion...you might learn tolerance and respect for others opinions...

Sorry $hithead!!

My Dad served (POW WWII) , I served, 2 of my bros served ( one w/ 2 tours in VN) and my baby sis is still serving (currently an RN in a med hospital in Germany).

So Go FYS w/ your lib opinions!!

[crazycat]

[

I don't see what pointing out what you may think his political slant is has to do with this. He never mentioned a thing about a party or a politician or a political way (liberal or conservative) of thinking. For all we know he's a moderate who just came to what he said based on what he's observing in this country. Looks like any opinion you disagree with you "brand" as liberal.

But I suppose if he'd gotten up there and said went on and on about how he's "dad-gum proud to be an uh-merican" and what a great country this is then you'd be cheering him on? Not saying that'd be a bad thing, but if so, don't confuse yourself with having patriotism, because if you do feel that way it isn't patriotism your feeling, but faith.

[couloir41]

go cats...reread the second line...or are you so wrapped up in the flag that you can't comprehend anything but spastic patriotism....???

life long...doesn't mean that at all...the cynic in me just would not let me varnish the club...

i'll try harder next time to be more pc...

[catamaran]

This thread has turned into what has gone completely haywire. Civil discourse has gone out the window. Whether you are a conservative or a liberal, you can't have your own opinion or state it. If you are a conservative, you're a flag waving idiot completely unable to have an original thought and if you are liberal, you're a self righteous know it all who only wants to make the world all hug. Maybe we should all take the time to actually analyze points rather than throw mud at each other

[grizbeer]

Interesting stuff. More interesting when you research Tocqueville on Wikipedia, and apply some of that to the questions posed here:

The French historian Alexis de Tocqueville, a champion of liberty and democracy in the early 1800s, once said: “America is great because she is good. If America ever ceases to be good, America will cease to be great.”

Consider if you will the following points:

Would a good America have a policy of pre-emptive war? War is a brutal and barbaric way to solve a problem. Unprovoked, we attacked a sovereign country with the headline “shock and awe.” That headline should have read “death and destruction.” One of the latest justifications of the war is “We are fighting terrorists there so we don’t have to fight them here.” That means we Americans are using Iraqis as human shields. Conservative estimates put the Iraqi civilian death toll at about 40,000 for our war.

Would a good America have policies that ignore longstanding international laws such as the Geneva Conventions — policies that condone torture and extraordinary rendition and allow lengthy imprisonment without rights?

from wikipedia on Tocqueville's thoughts:

Tocqueville made the apology of the brutal techniques employed during the 1830s conquest of Algeria:

"In France I have often heard people I respect, but do not approve, deplore [the army] burning harvests, emptying granaries and seizing unarmed men, women and children. As I see it, these are unfortunate necessities that any people wishing to make war on the Arabs must accept... I believe the laws of war entitle us to ravage the country and that we must do this, either by destroying crops at harvest time, or all the time by making rapid incursions, known as raids, the aim of which is to carry off men and flocks" [4]

"Whatever the case", continued Tocqueville, "we may say in a general manner that all political freedoms must be suspended in Algeria" [5]

I would say Tocqueville would still approve of America, still say we are a good country.

Would a good America, the land of freedom and equality, deny that freedom based on race, gender or sexual preference?

from wikipedia:

Tocqueville notes that among the races that exist in America:

"the first who attracts the eye, the first in enlightenment, in power and in happiness, is the white man, the European, man par exellence; below him appear the Negro and the Indian. These two unfortunate races have neither birth, nor face, lor language, nor mores in common; only their misfortunes look alike. Both occupy an equally inferior position in the country that they inhabit; both experience the effects of tyranny; and if their miseries are different, they can accuse the same author for them." [1].

Tocqueville concluded that removal of the Negro population from America was the best solution to problems of race relations in America for both Americans of African and European descent. French historian of colonialism Olivier LeCour Grandmaison has underlined how Tocqueville openly talked of "extermination" about the colonization of Western United States and the Indian Removal period

Giving these thoughts, I don't think Tocqueville would have any problem with denying freedome based on race, gender or sexual preference.

Would a good America allow wealth to accumulate in the hands of a few while many go hungry — and then pass tax cuts and laws that strengthen this disturbing trend?

from wikipedia:

An eminent representative of the liberalism political tradition, his advocacy of private charity rather than government aid to assist the poor has often been cited admiringly by conservatives and classical liberals, particularly in the late 20th and early 21st centuries

Being an advocate of private charity and not government support, Tocqueville would fully support the tax cuts.

Here are some quotes on Wikipedia by Tocqueville:

* ...experience suggests that the most dangerous moment for an evil government is usually when it begins to reform itself. Only great ingenuity can save a prince who undertakes to give relief to his subjects after long oppression. The sufferings that are endured patiently, as being inevitable, become intolerable the moment it appears that there might be an escape. Reform then only serves to reveal more clearly what still remains oppressive and now all the more unbearable.

* We are sleeping on a volcano... A wind of revolution blows, the storm is on the horizon. (Speaking in the Chamber of Deputies, 1848, just prior to the outbreak of revolution in Europe)

* Democracy and socialism have nothing in common but one word, equality. But notice the difference: while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude.

* There are at the present time two great nations in the world—I allude to the Russians and the Americans—All other nations seem to have nearly reached their national limits, and have only to maintain their power; these alone are proceeding—along a path to which no limit can be perceived.

* The American Republic will endure, until politicians realize they can bribe the people with their own money.

* They (the emperors) frequently abused their power arbitrarily to deprive their subjects of property or of life: their tyranny was extremely onerous to the few, but it did not reach the greater number; .. But it would seem that if despotism were to be established amongst the democratic nations of our days it might assume a different character; it would be more extensive and more mild, it would degrade men without tormenting them

* The man who asks of freedom anything other than itself is born to be a slave.

* Americans are so enamoured of equality they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

* The French constitute the most brilliant and the most dangerous nation in Europe and the best qualified in turn to become an object of admiration, hatred, pity or terror but never indifference.

* A weak government is threatened most when it begins to reform.

* The principal cause of disparities in the fortunes of men is intelligence.

* Town meetings are to liberty what primary schools are to science.

* I studied the Quran a great deal. I came away from that study with the conviction that by and large there have been few religions in the world as deadly to men as that of Muhammad. As far as I can see, it is the principal cause of the decadence so visible today in the Muslim world and, though less absurd than the polytheism of old, its social and political tendencies are in my opinion more to be feared, and I therefore regard it as a form of decadence rather than a form of progress in relation to paganism itself.

* Mahommed professed to derive from Heaven, and he has inserted in the Koran, not only a body of religious doctrines, but political maxims, civil and criminal laws, and theories of science. The gospel, on the contrary, only speaks of the general relations of men to God and to each other - beyond which it inculcates and imposes no point of faith. This alone, besides a thousand other reasons, would suffice to prove that the former of these religions will never long predominate in a cultivated and democratic age, whilst the latter is destined to retain its sway at these as at all other periods.

But here is the most interesting thing listed under quotes on wikipedia

* Tocqueville did not say, "When America ceases to be good, America will cease to be great." This is according to an article on www.tocqueville.org about this falsely attributed quote.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexis_de_Tocqueville

[Cat Grad]

Well thought out, grizbeer (by Wikipedia and ya'll used great references to refute the other side My main thoughts on this takes me bck to the argument Jefferson presented the rest of the framers of the constition for allowing "the commoners the right to vote" and his justifiable and prophetic argument was, to paraphrase...those that could be affected won't vote anyway...and will simply complain about no control over their destiny...

[iaafan]

That quote is attributed to Tocqueville so much that even if it isn't his, it's hard to say that someone mis-quoted him if they use it. Regardless of who said it, it's a great quote and it seems very pertinent to the times we're in.

Very true catamaran. I think the speech should stand on its own rather than be tagged a soapbox, political rant. But I also think those who tag it as such should be exposed.

No one gets bent out of shape, myself included, when McCain takes the Senate floor and gives one of his rah-rah USA lectures. Personally, I was inspired with what he said in this speech. http://mccain.senate.gov/index.cfm?fuse ... nt_id=1587
McCain, too, reference de Tocqueville:

"The 19th century observer of America Tocqueville observed of an earlier generation of Americans that they were “haunted by visions of what will be.” No nation complacent in its greatness will long sustain it, and we are not a people of half-measures. Americans instinctually understand that we are an unfinished nation, a great but not a perfect one. To be sure, Americans use our freedom to advance our individual interests, and to help secure for our children more prosperous, safer and gratifying lives than we were blessed to inherit. But most of us also appreciate that it is the responsibility of free people to prove again, as those who came before us proved, that a people free to act in their own interests will perceive their interests in an enlightened way, will live as one nation, in a kinship of ideals, and make of our power and wealth a civilization for the ages, a civilization in which all people share in the promise and obligations of freedom.

The values of freedom inspire our patriotism: government derived from the consent of the governed; equal justice under the law; an economic system that is an open market for our creativity and competition. We have not always lived up to these values. But our history, I stoutly argue, is the history of our progress, with obvious but temporary setbacks, toward living out the authentic meaning of freedom. We know when and where we have failed. But we also know that those values are worth fighting for. "

[iaafan]

Well thought out, grizbeer (by Wikipedia and ya'll used great references to refute the other side My main thoughts on this takes me bck to the argument Jefferson presented the rest of the framers of the constition for allowing "the commoners the right to vote" and his justifiable and prophetic argument was, to paraphrase...those that could be affected won't vote anyway...and will simply complain about no control over their destiny...

I didn't know there was a side taken, so what's to refute? Until someone brought political persuasion into this thread there was no argument and nothing to agree or disagree about.

Regradless of party affiliation, we should all be together in wanting to see America be as good a place as it can be, so we should always be seeking to make it better.

[Cat Grad]

Well thought out, grizbeer (by Wikipedia and ya'll used great references to refute the other side My main thoughts on this takes me bck to the argument Jefferson presented the rest of the framers of the constition for allowing "the commoners the right to vote" and his justifiable and prophetic argument was, to paraphrase...those that could be affected won't vote anyway...and will simply complain about no control over their destiny...

I didn't know there was a side taken, so what's to refute? Until someone brought political persuasion into this thread there was no argument and nothing to agree or disagree about.

Regradless of party affiliation, we should all be together in wanting to see America be as good a place as it can be, so we should always be seeking to make it better.

You can't see the quote from the speech being clarified by how Wikpedia interprets de Tocqueville Oh well...

[rtb]

Very true catamaran. I think the speech should stand on its own rather than be tagged a soapbox, political rant. But I also think those who tag it as such should be exposed.

I agree the speech should stand on its own and that I would be happy to discuss his points and debate with the speaker. However I was the one that called it a soapbox because do you really think a high school graduation speech is an appropriate forum to share an opinion filled speech? I personally don't, and that is my only issue with the topic.

[GOKATS]

Very true catamaran. I think the speech should stand on its own rather than be tagged a soapbox, political rant. But I also think those who tag it as such should be exposed.

I agree the speech should stand on its own and that I would be happy to discuss his points and debate with the speaker. However I was the one that called it a soapbox because do you really think a high school graduation speech is an appropriate forum to share an opinion filled speech? I personally don't, and that is my only issue with the topic.

Thank you!