Tillman

Ponycat · Post by **Ponycat** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:00 pm

I know there was a thread about this a while back. Some pretty interesting things I didn't know about his death. Part 1 of 3

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/ ... llmanpart1

anacondagriz · Post by **anacondagriz** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:04 pm

"Kauzlarich, now a battalion commanding officer at Fort Riley in Kansas, further suggested the Tillman family's unhappiness with the findings of past investigations might be because of the absence of a Christian faith in their lives.

In an interview with ESPN.com, Kauzlarich said: "When you die, I mean, there is supposedly a better life, right? Well, if you are an atheist and you don't believe in anything, if you die, what is there to go to? Nothing. You are worm dirt. So for their son to die for nothing, and now he is no more — that is pretty hard to get your head around that. So I don't know how an atheist thinks. I can only imagine that that would be pretty tough."

What an ass this Kauzlarich guys is. Calling Tillman worm food because he wasn't a Christian.

Post by **SonomaCat** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:12 pm

Don't even get me started....

But yet, I can't help myself. Clearly, this guy is like the many religious folks who can't stand the idea of someone else not needing to have faith in an afterlife story in order to have a fulfilling and rich life. I view this as being simultaneously enormously condescending, arrogant, and insecure.

Tillman fought for the people and country he loved. The pain his family feels has nothing to do with his or their lack of faith in God, but rather in the betrayal they assert on the part of the government he willfully gave his life for.

Ponycat · Post by **Ponycat** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:44 pm

Not a very "Christian" way of acting.

briannell · Post by **briannell** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:22 pm

certainly not a proper response but let me say i am sick and tired of tillman getting such attention!!! okay, it was a ****** up, friendly fire, you think his unit doesn't feel like crap? there are hazards as a soldier. okay my hubby is deployed to iraq, if he dies, yes crushing news to the family, but he is a soldier there are those risks. by tillmans family dragging this out they dishonor their son. accident or not he died in uniform for his country, thus a hero, leave it at that. all that die in service to the US are heroes even if their death was accidental. I am sorry for the tillman family loss, i am sorry for every family that loses a service member, but they choose this life ..at least nowadays. they want this life, even with the risk involved. sorry i'd rather spend military dollars and time on bringing home the bodies of the MIA from past conflicts than more tillman ******. at least the tillman family has closure, many families have nothing of their loved ones but a telegram saying the Army regrets to inform you that your servicemember is MIA. now that SUCKS!!!!

CARDIAC_CATS · Post by **CARDIAC_CATS** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:03 am

briannell wrote:certainly not a proper response but let me say i am sick and tired of tillman getting such attention!!! okay, it was a ****** up, friendly fire, you think his unit doesn't feel like crap? there are hazards as a soldier. okay my hubby is deployed to iraq, if he dies, yes crushing news to the family, but he is a soldier there are those risks. by tillmans family dragging this out they dishonor their son. accident or not he died in uniform for his country, thus a hero, leave it at that. all that die in service to the US are heroes even if their death was accidental. I am sorry for the tillman family loss, i am sorry for every family that loses a service member, but they choose this life ..at least nowadays. they want this life, even with the risk involved. sorry i'd rather spend military dollars and time on bringing home the bodies of the MIA from past conflicts than more tillman ******. at least the tillman family has closure, many families have nothing of their loved ones but a telegram saying the Army regrets to inform you that your servicemember is MIA. now that SUCKS!!!!

I totally agree. This kind of stuff will happen and it did happen. The pointing of fingers/attention this is getting is NOT fair to the people that are still in uniform. Other soldiers don't get this kind of attention and I don't even think Pat would want this attention either right now. He was a team player throughout his life and never was bigger (except in heart) than anyone around him. He is definately missed.

iaafan · Post by **iaafan** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:54 am

I don't understand how you can say that. I think the Tillman family wants to know why the Army covered up that their son was killed by friendly fire. I think they understand that certain risks are posed when one enters the military, esp. a special force. I think it's perfectly within their right to question what the hell went on after it happened. I'd be a bit pissed too if one of my kids was killed and the Army tried to cover it up, and esp. if they tried to use my kid's celebrity status as a feather in their cap. Personally, what the Army/White House did in this case makes me sick and they have some explaining to do. If anyone besides the Tillman family was taking issue, they'd probably walk away scott free. Someone ordered a cover up and that person should be in jail.

iaafan · Post by **iaafan** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 2:44 pm

Next chapter.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/ ... llmanpart2

Looks like Bush is in on this lie, too. Sad.

briannell · Post by **briannell** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 2:51 pm

you don't goto jail for mistakenly reporting a soldiers death was not in direct fire. i.e. we are at Ft. lewis I can tell you my neighbors humvee patrol was blown up by roadside bombs. out of 8 he's one of 3 that lived. the investigation was screwed up HORRIBLY. in fact it took the Army 3 weeks to notify his wife that he was still alive and sent to Germany for treatment. she went 3 weeks thinking he was dead because the Army "lost track" of his "status". you may say apples and oranges as for the tillman family, but I grew up in the Army , spent 23 years as a dependant and 9 as a soldiers wife. It's just no one is on the same page. name me one other "company" with the same number of employees as the US Armed Forces? It's had to keep track of everything, and simply ****** HAPPENS!!!!!

I can also tell you this about "friendly" fire, he WASN"T murdered!!! There was NO plot to kill Tillman, these men didn't do it purposely. It would be a horrible loss for any family, I'm sick of Tillman being treated so special because he played football. who cares!!! You goto the Vietnam memorial and look a family member in the eye and tell me if it really matters if the death was by "friendly" fire or by enemy fire. it doesn't the loss is still great anyway you slice it.

Post by **SonomaCat** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 3:01 pm

I think the main issue of contention is the alleged intentional cover-up of the truth (for political PR reasons) ... not allegations that he was murdered.

iaafan · Post by **iaafan** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 3:15 pm

briannell wrote:you don't goto jail for mistakenly reporting a soldiers death was not in direct fire. i.e. we are at Ft. lewis I can tell you my neighbors humvee patrol was blown up by roadside bombs. out of 8 he's one of 3 that lived. the investigation was screwed up HORRIBLY. in fact it took the Army 3 weeks to notify his wife that he was still alive and sent to Germany for treatment. she went 3 weeks thinking he was dead because the Army "lost track" of his "status". you may say apples and oranges as for the tillman family, but I grew up in the Army , spent 23 years as a dependant and 9 as a soldiers wife. It's just no one is on the same page. name me one other "company" with the same number of employees as the US Armed Forces? It's had to keep track of everything, and simply ****** HAPPENS!!!!!

I can also tell you this about "friendly" fire, he WASN"T murdered!!! There was NO plot to kill Tillman, these men didn't do it purposely. It would be a horrible loss for any family, I'm sick of Tillman being treated so special because he played football. who cares!!! You goto the Vietnam memorial and look a family member in the eye and tell me if it really matters if the death was by "friendly" fire or by enemy fire. it doesn't the loss is still great anyway you slice it.

Who said he was murdered? This is about a coverup that probably goes all the way to the White House. C'mon, if they don't get caught and punished over this imagine what they'd do to some avg. Joe in the same situation. Do you want our country's foundation supported by a bunch of liars? I think our leaders watched that "You can't handle the truth!" movie with Jack Nicholsen too many times and took it to heart. The reality we can handle, and we want, the truth.

catamaran · Post by **catamaran** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 3:28 pm

Look out i-aa, I think the black helicopters are flying above your house right now

Post by **SonomaCat** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 3:46 pm

Well ... this is actually the material covered in the ESPN articles that have been posted.

CARDIAC_CATS · Post by **CARDIAC_CATS** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 9:20 am

iaafan wrote:I don't understand how you can say that. I think the Tillman family wants to know why the Army covered up that their son was killed by friendly fire. I think they understand that certain risks are posed when one enters the military, esp. a special force. I think it's perfectly within their right to question what the hell went on after it happened. I'd be a bit pissed too if one of my kids was killed and the Army tried to cover it up, and esp. if they tried to use my kid's celebrity status as a feather in their cap. Personally, what the Army/White House did in this case makes me sick and they have some explaining to do. If anyone besides the Tillman family was taking issue, they'd probably walk away scott free. Someone ordered a cover up and that person should be in jail.

I just don't think Pat would want this to have exploded like it was and put his name out there like it is now. The military is known for screwing things up and just like the example posted above it happens all the time. Is this right? No it is not, but they have their own system of doing things (that his often sheltered from any legal action as well .. that is why they are like that). I just don't like these articles and constant media attention dragging his name through all this. He was a HERO and one of the very few athletes in America that were willing to put their own life over the mighty $$$$. There is already so much spin on this that it is getting ridiculous. Remember the CHOICE and sacrifice this guy made for us and let it go. We are not bringing him back. Do you think all those other Rangers meant to shoot him? Heck No! The military may have screwed it up how they reported that (gave him speicial honors) but then that is the government right? They work on different rules.

Pat will always be remember as a HERO in my book (regardless of all this press/dragging on of inquiries does to try and skew that).

iaafan · Post by **iaafan** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 10:40 am

CARDIAC_CATS wrote:
iaafan wrote:I don't understand how you can say that. I think the Tillman family wants to know why the Army covered up that their son was killed by friendly fire. I think they understand that certain risks are posed when one enters the military, esp. a special force. I think it's perfectly within their right to question what the hell went on after it happened. I'd be a bit pissed too if one of my kids was killed and the Army tried to cover it up, and esp. if they tried to use my kid's celebrity status as a feather in their cap. Personally, what the Army/White House did in this case makes me sick and they have some explaining to do. If anyone besides the Tillman family was taking issue, they'd probably walk away scott free. Someone ordered a cover up and that person should be in jail.
I just don't think Pat would want this to have exploded like it was and put his name out there like it is now. The military is known for screwing things up and just like the example posted above it happens all the time. Is this right? No it is not, but they have their own system of doing things (that his often sheltered from any legal action as well .. that is why they are like that). I just don't like these articles and constant media attention dragging his name through all this. He was a HERO and one of the very few athletes in America that were willing to put their own life over the mighty $$$$. There is already so much spin on this that it is getting ridiculous. Remember the CHOICE and sacrifice this guy made for us and let it go. We are not bringing him back. Do you think all those other Rangers meant to shoot him? Heck No! The military may have screwed it up how they reported that (gave him speicial honors) but then that is the government right? They work on different rules.

Pat will always be remember as a HERO in my book (regardless of all this press/dragging on of inquiries does to try and skew that).

I agree he’s a hero. There’s never been any doubt about that. It appears that it’s extremely unlikely his fellow Rangers were trying to kill him. The military may be known for screwing things up, but the reason behind their screw ups, however, is what causes these types of situations to come to the forefront in the media.

Had they just ‘mistakenly, yet honestly,’ thought that Tillman was killed by the enemy and that was all there was to it, then that’d come and go. Had Tillman not come from the high-profile world of the NFL, and not been an Army poster child, then this would’ve come and gone. Unlike what the gov’t would’ve done with the average Joe, it tried to capitalize on the celebrity of Tillman and in so-doing they cause a lot of undue hardship on his family, friends and admirers.

I also doubt the Tillman family is enjoying the fact that they feel compelled to find out who all in the government was trying to cover it up what actually happened. I think they fully understand why the officials (Bush?, Rumsfeld?, etc.) did this (obviously to advance their ratings), but since it has caused them so much strife they now want to see someone punished for that action. Who can fault them for that?

The CHOICE he made didn’t include letting the government use his celebrity in any way it saw fit. Had he signed some papers (Yes, if I die, you can make up some BS story about how it happened to make the government look good) to that affect when he joined that’d be OK, I guess. I don’t think that’s included in the enlistment papers.

You seem to just give the government a pass on this, that’s scary. “Oops, the government screwed up and took $5,000 more in taxes from me this year than it was supposed to. Oh well, I’m not going to say anything, because, hey, the government screws up all the time and I should just be happy that I get to live in this great country.”

iaafan · Post by **iaafan** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 11:41 am

Part 3:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/ ... llmanpart3

CARDIAC_CATS · Post by **CARDIAC_CATS** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:54 pm

I agree this is a heated issue, but if they are going to do an inquiry into Pat Tillman's death and or other soldier involved (which is the main part of what started all of this media circus on this), they better open all the other cases of friendly fire from the last 3 wars as well and examine wrong doings in all of those too. The fact of this matter is it was a WAR battle and friendly fire incidents are GOING to occurr. Yeah, there was a coverup and a major screw up in the military to use Pat as a hero and good image for the military. However, this is not going to bring Pat back.

Let his family sue the government and go that route, but I am just sick of hearing about it in the press/tv/etc. What his family should do is use that foundation money to do research on friendly fire tracking beacons or something that every soldier could have so that a FRIENDLY could be verified instantly wether it be friend or FOE etc. That would be money better put to use for future friendly fire victims. That would be a great way to direct his foundation dollars in my opinion.

iaafan · Post by **iaafan** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 8:33 pm

CARDIAC_CATS wrote:I agree this is a heated issue, but if they are going to do an inquiry into Pat Tillman's death and or other soldier involved (which is the main part of what started all of this media circus on this), they better open all the other cases of friendly fire from the last 3 wars as well and examine wrong doings in all of those too. The fact of this matter is it was a WAR battle and friendly fire incidents are GOING to occurr. Yeah, there was a coverup and a major screw up in the military to use Pat as a hero and good image for the military. However, this is not going to bring Pat back.

Let his family sue the government and go that route, but I am just sick of hearing about it in the press/tv/etc. What his family should do is use that foundation money to do research on friendly fire tracking beacons or something that every soldier could have so that a FRIENDLY could be verified instantly wether it be friend or FOE etc. That would be money better put to use for future friendly fire victims. That would be a great way to direct his foundation dollars in my opinion.

That'd be a great cause, I agree. But I still think the Tillman family just wants whoever concocted this "Use Tillman's Death to Make Bush's White House Look Good" scheme to be punished. It's obvious they knew what actually happend to Tillman, but went ahead and made up a different story for personal gain. That's B.S., no?